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Penn State Scandal (Update: NCAA Punishment handed out)

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Old
11-11-2011, 01:08 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by brian_griffin View Post
flyingpig and perhaps others, I believe we do not know for certain McQueary and Paterno fully "met their legal obligation" by (simply) notifying their superiors. I have not seen an article / discussion which focused directly or exclusively on what the obligations PSU Employees had in 2002 re: direct witnessing (McQueary) or receiving a report of (Paterno) a sex crime. I find it hard to believe both the Commonwealth and PSU (40,000 student body, with probably several thousand faculty and support staff) lacked either laws or rules requiring direct reporting to Law Enforcement (or "anonymous" whistle-blower reporting to PSU Ombudsman or Law Enforcement hotline if fear of retribution / cover-up). Not detracting from the tragedy and victims, nor the cover-up, but the law here is relevant, IMO. I have grave doubts Penna. law was followed by either (ignoring the moral discussion - others have covered that).
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the PSU president was required by PA law to notify protective services within a certain period of time and obviously failed to do so.

The Clery Act mandates that it should have been reported and included with their annual statistics (but note that the CA does not mandate that the police be notified). That is one of the violations that will be documented by the DOE during their investigation of federal law-breaking.

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11-11-2011, 01:09 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by MrCryceratops View Post
This has gone far past ludicrous and is now bordering on insane. What more does Pegula have to do to please TBN clowns? He released his statement grieving for the victims. He mentioned that he believes the trustees, the ones in charge of fixing all of this, will make the proper decisions. Honestly, he didn't even have to do that. So long as his money wasn't tied to any of those camps, or the programs where people were victimized, what more is he obligated to do? Where does Harrington and Bucky feel Pegula's responsibility begins and where it ends? I think i am done with TBN.
This just in... Terry's money is tied to a program where kids were victimized. He is a major player in that football program, as various reporting has pointed out. His right hand man was finance chair of Sandusky's organization and still sits on the board.

Terry needed to be out front with his comments, and his comments needed to be smarter, more forceful and more compassionate. He's paying a price now for being late.

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11-11-2011, 01:18 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
This just in... Terry's money is tied to a program where kids were victimized. He is a major player in that football program, as various reporting has pointed out. His right hand man was finance chair of Sandusky's organization and still sits on the board.

Terry needed to be out front with his comments, and his comments needed to be smarter, more forceful and more compassionate. He's paying a price now for being late.
Paying a price to who? Bucky and Harrington?

I havent seen too many people agreeing with them so far alhough I am not really following it, as I personally dont think it much of a story?

I don't know if his statement or initial silence has been raised or questioned outside of WNY.

If he were ever tied to the scandal directly, I would feel differently. I sure hope that never occurs.

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11-11-2011, 01:19 PM
  #179
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Paying a price? The TBN idiots badgering him? Theyre the only ones who really care.

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11-11-2011, 01:24 PM
  #180
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Paying a price? The TBN idiots badgering him? Theyre the only ones who really care.
Exactly. Most of us can tell the difference between what Pegula is doing and what certain members of Penn State did.

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11-11-2011, 01:28 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
Speaking of out of context... that's not his point.

He's clearly spelling out why Pegula was more obligated to comment than most fans at first understood.

By the way, you read it here first.
And that's another bone to pick. If they had all these facts that connected Pegula more tightly with the football program (which I think is a stretch, but personal opinion), WHY DIDN'T THEY COME OUT WITH THOSE FACTS IN THE STORY YESTERDAY? Why wait until the next day? If they had put all this out there in the same 'no comment' story, I don't think anyone says a thing.

This is classic tabloid journalism. They KNOW that they could write a story about breakfast cereal, and if they can connect Pegula to it it will generate page views.

On top of all that, the attitude of Harrington and Gleason to go out and insult readers by saying they're dumb, and can't read... what the heck is that? THAT'S how you back up your point?

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11-11-2011, 01:31 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by brian_griffin View Post
I said I'm going to stay silent on this and just read, both here (our discussion among "internet freinds") and in the mainstream sources (Pennlive, others) as this story unfolds.

Until we know more, my views remain in posts #36, (#79) & #134.

I will speak up, though, to correct a couple misconceptions.

(Jim Bob,) Sandusky would have been in his late '50s in 2002, not late '60s. Though I'm sure that correction in no way changes your contention re: McQueary's lack of physical intervention in 2002. (which I resoundingly agree with)

flyingpig and perhaps others, I believe we do not know for certain McQueary and Paterno fully "met their legal obligation" by (simply) notifying their superiors. I have not seen an article / discussion which focused directly or exclusively on what the obligations PSU Employees had in 2002 re: direct witnessing (McQueary) or receiving a report of (Paterno) a sex crime. I find it hard to believe both the Commonwealth and PSU (40,000 student body, with probably several thousand faculty and support staff) lacked either laws or rules requiring direct reporting to Law Enforcement (or "anonymous" whistle-blower reporting to PSU Ombudsman or Law Enforcement hotline if fear of retribution / cover-up). Not detracting from the tragedy and victims, nor the cover-up, but the law here is relevant, IMO. I have grave doubts Penna. law was followed by either (ignoring the moral discussion - others have covered that).
I may be wrong, but everything I have read seems to indicate that they met their obligation by reporting their knoweldge to superiors. I do not think there is a reporting "law" in most states. I recall a case I studied in law school in which 6 people in NYC witnessed a murder from their apartment window and none called 911. The issue was whether they had an obligation to do so and legally they did not. Morally, they failed.

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11-11-2011, 01:32 PM
  #183
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I wonder if Pennsylvania will make changes to its reporting laws as a result of this scandal.

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11-11-2011, 01:33 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
This just in... Terry's money is tied to a program where kids were victimized. He is a major player in that football program, as various reporting has pointed out. His right hand man was finance chair of Sandusky's organization and still sits on the board.

Terry needed to be out front with his comments, and his comments needed to be smarter, more forceful and more compassionate. He's paying a price now for being late.
I apologize if I am splitting hairs, but I haven't found a single report that says Terry Pegula's money was used to fund said programs. Could you link me to a specific article that says otherwise?

Regardless, I still don't see why Pegula's response is so vital. If he is more passionate and forceful, will the punishments be more severe? Will the athletic department launch a full scale pedophile investigation? I guess it would spur them to be more proactive about these issues in the future, but I think the current situation alone will spur more prompt action. What else?

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11-11-2011, 01:34 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by flyingpig View Post
I may be wrong, but everything I have read seems to indicate that they met their obligation by reporting their knoweldge to superiors. I do not think there is a reporting "law" in most states. I recall a case I studied in law school in which 6 people in NYC witnessed a murder from their apartment window and none called 911. The issue was whether they had an obligation to do so and legally they did not. Morally, they failed.
There are lots of mandatory reporting laws when it comes to sexual abuse of minors, especially in education. I don't know the laws of PA, but some career teachers I know have said they don't think the actions of the Penn State staff would have met NYS laws on the subject.

In short, as it was told to me : An educator can't just punt something to their boss and leave it alone in a matter like this.

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11-11-2011, 01:38 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingpig View Post
I may be wrong, but everything I have read seems to indicate that they met their obligation by reporting their knoweldge to superiors. I do not think there is a reporting "law" in most states. I recall a case I studied in law school in which 6 people in NYC witnessed a murder from their apartment window and none called 911. The issue was whether they had an obligation to do so and legally they did not. Morally, they failed.
I was just doing a little more searching and I agree that they seem to have met the legal obligation, with the exception of the school president. It gets kind of murky when you have the AD, Sr VP, and President all claiming they were not specifically told exactly what occurred.

This article goes a little into the CPS law, although mostly in respect to Paterno.

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11-11-2011, 01:42 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by MrCryceratops View Post
I apologize if I am splitting hairs, but I haven't found a single report that says Terry Pegula's money was used to fund said programs. Could you link me to a specific article that says otherwise?

Regardless, I still don't see why Pegula's response is so vital. If he is more passionate and forceful, will the punishments be more severe? Will the athletic department launch a full scale pedophile investigation? I guess it would spur them to be more proactive about these issues in the future, but I think the current situation alone will spur more prompt action. What else?
It's vital because it gives TBN a unique angle on the biggest story in sports today.....

Other than that, not so much.

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11-11-2011, 01:49 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
It's vital because it gives TBN a unique angle on the biggest story in sports today.....

Other than that, not so much.
Roger "Woodward" Harrington and Bucky "Berstein" Gleason.

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11-11-2011, 02:09 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I wonder if Pennsylvania will make changes to its reporting laws as a result of this scandal.
Frankly, I would be shocked if some Pennsylvania state legislator weren't already drafting some new legislation.

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11-11-2011, 02:25 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by flyingpig View Post
I may be wrong, but everything I have read seems to indicate that they met their obligation by reporting their knoweldge to superiors. I do not think there is a reporting "law" in most states. I recall a case I studied in law school in which 6 people in NYC witnessed a murder from their apartment window and none called 911. The issue was whether they had an obligation to do so and legally they did not. Morally, they failed.
Didn't know you were a lawyer. I am not (but I play one on TV) which should be evident from my posts.) Kudos to you!!

Not sure the case you cite above is relevant comparison to the point I'm trying to make. I'm pretty sure, at least in NYS, colleges / universities legally act in loco parentis, at a minimum for enrolled students, if not all persons on campus. And if so, I believe there are legal obigations of that in loco parentis relationship. Regardless of whether that is true or not, the NYC case was one of private citizens. Public University employees have additional obligations, perhaps even as conditions of employment, depending on their job title / role (i.e., people in Student Affairs and/or Residence Life have obligations workers in, e.g., the Physical Plant lack).

As to AV18's point, yes, I'm aware the president was required to report. My question is were McQueary & Paterno allowed to pass the buck up the chain.

edit: The link she cites addresses the question better than I can. The paragraphs beginning in bold with "Child Protective Services Law" are the crux of my thinking / questions. It seems the answers are gray and it will take a while of legal wrangling to sort all that out.

My three big legal questions / issues:
1. Extent of McQueary's / Paterno's legal guilt.
2. How extensive / orchestrated was the Sandusky cover-up?
3. Is Ray Gricar's "death" related? http://www.centredaily.com/2009/04/1...-weakened.html [1] [2]

[1] Would be absolutely stunned if he is actually alive somewhere in Europe or South America under another identity, bought off by PSU or a cadre of conspirators.
[2] According to local law enforcement (Bellefonte is the exit towards State College when heading East on I-80) he tried to erase his hard drive and actually succeeded. Did he erase it? or did whomever caused him to disappear erase it, but law enforcement is complicit by claiming it was self-initiated by Gricar as part of the cover-up?

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11-11-2011, 02:56 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by flyingpig View Post
I agree that Penn State is now forced to take action in a manner that shows "taking control". It is P.R. to some extent. That does not mean that there are not trustees, professors, students that are not completely sickened by there abhorent criminal acts by a sick individual and the failings by those in charge to properly address the issue previously.

As for Pegula, it is a no win situation for him to speak on the subject. He is obviously going to condemn Sandusky, he is going to support Penn State. He is going to offer his sympathy to the victims.

He is not going to publicly villify the administrative officials. it does him no good. It is not a PR move for him. He is not running for government and providing lip service the public wants to hear. He wil be guarded and should be. Privately, I think it safe to presume he will make his mind known.

The Joe Pa and McQuery issue is one of moral character. Legally, they met their obligation. Tell your superior of wrongdoing. Morally, it is a question of doing more, going above and beyond what you are supposed to do legally. It is essentially being a "whistleblower". They could have gone to the police. They could have seen that the actions of those higher up was not significant enough and challenged them privately, trying to force the hand of the administration to do something more substantial.

Neither did so. I think it is safe to say that they did not do so partly because of self preservation, (recruiting, keeping a job, keeping up the apperance of "Happy Valley" and on and on). I think they partly did so because they felt that they did what they were told to do by their employer and it was no longer "in their hands". They may have done so because they simply could not confront what they knew. In hindsight, I am sure they regret their decisions. They should lose their job for their failings, whatever their reasons were. They are being villified for their failings because this is a sad, sad pubic story.

My nephew is a feshman at Penn State. As you could imagine, he is very upset about the whole thing. He is there for sports journalism and loves Penn State Athletics. He is emotionally torn. College is supposed to be the best four or five years of your life. A big part of choosing Penn State for many is being a fan of the football program. it is something the students identify with proudly. He says everyone is just very, very sad. It must be very confusing for these kids.


Ding Ding Ding.

Well put.

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11-11-2011, 03:09 PM
  #192
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You're acting as if what happened in 2002 was the first time this was brought to Paterno's attention. It wasn't. By then Paterno knew what Sandusky was. You also don't seem to grasp the power and influence that Paterno had on that campus.


Sandusky retired in 1999 after the investigations in 1998. But was allowed to negotiate the terms of his retirement. Who do you think supported Sandusky?Paterno. How else could a someone thats accused of inapproriate sexual conduct with young boys be in a position to negotiate his retirement? A settlement that included Sandusky having access to the campus facilities for use with his camps for troubled youth.

Are you actually naive enough to think that something like this could be worked out between Sandusky and Penn State without Paterno's involvement, let alone knowledge of it? The same Paterno who in 2004 when asked to resign by the Board of trustees said no and keeps his job. Since the Board is too afraid to fire him and he knows it. His stature at the school makes his statement that he did what he could by passing it "up" the chain laughable.

In 1999 when Sandusky retires, Paterno knows full well what he is accused of and why he has to retire. But even knowing what Sandusky is doesn't stop Paterno and the school from signing off on a retirement agreement with a known sexual abuser of children to host camps for troubled kids on Penn State grounds. By the time 2002 rolls around and McQueary reports what he saw to Paterno. The lame excuse you've trotted out, of not wanting to believe your buddy is like that, doesn't hold any water. He already knew Sandusky was like that.

Paterno knew from at least 1998 on that Sandusky had sexually abused young boys. Paterno was also the most powerful figure on Penn State's campus.
Paterno did nothing to stop the abuse or help the boys involved. He just passed the buck and washed his hands of the incident.

You're really going to keep spouting off that this incredibly powerful figure couldn't stop what was going on? A guy who essentially had no one above him at the school. You're not being rational, you're being delusional.

Paterno didn't make a bad choice. He made several bad judgments and ended up an enabler for a child molester and rapist.

I'm actually interested in what happened in '98 .... It says "alleged" sexual misconduct.... What happened with the case?... Dropped? .. Settled? Did it ever go to trial? ...

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11-11-2011, 03:11 PM
  #193
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Ding Ding Ding.

Well put.
I will post without reading anything in this thread besides the point that this scandal presents moral issues in addition to legal issues. I don't know whether anyone here thinks Paterno shouldn't have been fired, but for those that do, I encourage you to read the grand jury's findings of fact. The assistant coach that didn't stop the anal **** at issue and the head coach who essentially did nothing about it should be ashamed of themselves. As far as Paterno is concerned, for a man who preached character and integrity, when push came to shove and he reached probably the most important point in his life in which he should have applied those values, he didn't. Someone much more intelligent than me once told me that character is what you do when you think someone isn't looking. To the extent character is embodied in what you do when you think someone in a position of power or authority won't find out, Paterno has none.

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11-11-2011, 03:35 PM
  #194
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This just in... Terry's money is tied to a program where kids were victimized. He is a major player in that football program, as various reporting has pointed out. His right hand man was finance chair of Sandusky's organization and still sits on the board.
This is a complete overstatement.

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11-11-2011, 03:39 PM
  #195
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This is a complete overstatement.
Maybe a bit of an overstatement. Terry acts like he's a major player though.

And, as long as we're holding each other's feet to the fire, you have no evidence that he's not a major player.

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11-11-2011, 03:42 PM
  #196
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This is a complete overstatement.
No **** ...

I demand to know what the Nittnay Lion mascot has to say about this as well.

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11-11-2011, 03:43 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
Maybe a bit of an overstatement. Terry acts like he's a major player though.

And, as long as we're holding each other's feet to the fire, you have no evidence that he's not a major player.

You made the accusation .... it's on YOU to back it up.... Not him.

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11-11-2011, 03:44 PM
  #198
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I'm actually interested in what happened in '98 .... It says "alleged" sexual misconduct.... What happened with the case?... Dropped? .. Settled? Did it ever go to trial? ...
This article should interest you:

Quote:
One of the questions surrounding the sex-abuse case against Jerry Sandusky is why a former district attorney chose not to prosecute the then-Penn State assistant coach in 1998 after reports surfaced that he had inappropriate interactions with a boy.

The answer is unknowable because of an unsolved mystery: What happened to Ray Gricar, the Centre County, Pa., district attorney?
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/sp...ttorney&st=cse

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11-11-2011, 03:47 PM
  #199
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Maybe a bit of an overstatement. Terry acts like he's a major player though.

And, as long as we're holding each other's feet to the fire, you have no evidence that he's not a major player.
I should have expounded on my point, but I had to take a call.

My definition of a major player in a college football program is an alum that is consistently active in fundraising or recruiting. Some one who is influential in selecting coaches, or pushing for them to be fired.

Terry Pegula is CLEARLY not that person.

If you go back and look at articles published in PA papers around the time Pegula donated the $88M, they're full of 'Who is Terry Pegula?' comments. He was relatively unknown in university circles other than being a graduate. If he was active enough in the football program to be a major player, his name would have been much more commonly known around there.

I don't consider Pegula being asked to call to vouch for a coach that significant an involvement. Big time schools have rich alumni call people all the time.

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11-11-2011, 03:50 PM
  #200
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I just don't understand why there isn't any paperwork or news reports as to why he didn't pursue it. I'm no lawyer but i would think they'd have to fill out a report or something.


It's very strange indeed.

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