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+/- Pens v Stars (The Tired of Waiting for Cole Edition)

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Old
11-11-2011, 09:49 PM
  #26
KIRK
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
No bash at all.



Maybe Tangradi could become that guy. He certainly has no problem driving the net.
Yeah, I was thinking maybe Tangradi one day too.

BTW, CW, does the actual post make sense in terms of the line lacking a winger who consistently drives the net after dropping a pass to Malkin (and, by extension, that it deprives Malkin the chance to exploit one of the ways in which he most dangerous offensively)?

It's just you can tell something is missing. I do think the knee is part of it. But, when I thought back to how Malkin scored all of those goals at even strength, a lot of them happened in the scenario I described.

Now, Neal drops to him and peels off to find a shooting position. If Geno cuts to the middle, the second defender can cheat to him without consequence. And, if Geno gets off a shot, the goalie isn't screened.

I don't want Neal to change how he plays, but it seems pretty clear to me that it will be a bit harder for Malkin to completely be Malkin again until they find someone who will pretty consistently drive the net.

EDIT: Still have pipe dreams of a trade somehow for Kulemin, who actually plays that way for anyone who watches what he does on a line with Grabovski and MacArthur in Toronto. Sadly, it won't happen . . .


Last edited by KIRK: 11-11-2011 at 09:54 PM.
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11-11-2011, 09:49 PM
  #27
Dick Sledge
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
He also was cheating up ice when Martin lost the puck in the middle of his own zone and Fiddler was behind everyone for that point blank shot.

Tanger actually has had a few rough ones in terms of defensive coverage (the give and go goal in LA, for example).

That said, it's a nitpick.

Frankly, as a team, the Pens defensively did a better job on the Stars than just about any other team I've seen this year and they did it without Michalek.

Side Note: I live in Dallas, so I got the Stars feed. Love listening to a game announced by Razor. Guy was really impressed with the Pens and announced the game as someone who actually was familiar with the Pens (beyond the soundbite level of knowledge).
I'm currently living in Houston and I plan on going to the game at the end of Feb. You going to be attending?

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11-11-2011, 09:49 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
He also was cheating up ice when Martin lost the puck in the middle of his own zone and Fiddler was behind everyone for that point blank shot.

Tanger actually has had a few rough ones in terms of defensive coverage (the give and go goal in LA, for example).

That said, it's a nitpick.

Frankly, as a team, the Pens defensively did a better job on the Stars than just about any other team I've seen this year and they did it without Michalek.

Side Note: I live in Dallas, so I got the Stars feed. Love listening to a game announced by Razor. Guy was really impressed with the Pens and announced the game as someone who actually was familiar with the Pens (beyond the soundbite level of knowledge).
He's my favorite color guy in the game and CBC was smart to pick him up for the Saturday late games, but I was a little disappointed when he started complaining about the officiating.

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11-11-2011, 09:50 PM
  #29
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Total team effort after the Dallas goal. There really isn't much to complain about. I loved the resilience shown by this team after each goal was waved off. They went and got another. Love it.

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11-11-2011, 09:51 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by MALKINOCALYPSE View Post
I'm currently living in Houston and I plan on going to the game at the end of Feb. You going to be attending?
Not sure if I'm in town. If I am, then, one way for another, yes.

BTW, last time they were in town, Pens were at Rosewood Crescent Court hotel. Suspect it will be the same again . . .

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11-11-2011, 09:53 PM
  #31
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He's my favorite color guy in the game and CBC was smart to pick him up for the Saturday late games, but I was a little disappointed when he started complaining about the officiating.
Well, it's not as if the Pens didn't get away with a few. Then again, so did Dallas. And, I think the thing that really got him into a dander was the call on Cooke being a penalty shot instead of a penalty. He's probably right that it's called a penalty far more often. Yeah, it was homerish, but it wasn't brutally so.

And, as I said, the thing I liked more is that the gives you more on the other team and displays more knowledge of the other team that just about any other local color guy out there.

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11-11-2011, 09:54 PM
  #32
Dick Sledge
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Not sure if I'm in town. If I am, then, one way for another, yes.

BTW, last time they were in town, Pens were at Rosewood Crescent Court hotel. Suspect it will be the same again . . .
Lol I'll probably try and drive up day of. I'm definitely going. It will be my only opportunity to attend a game all season. I'm trying to get people down here to go up with me but not many people in Houston are even aware that hockey exists. Sad in a way.

If I have to I'll go by myself I don't care. But it would be cool to see fellow Pens fans there.

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11-11-2011, 09:56 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by MALKINOCALYPSE View Post
Lol I'll probably try and drive up day of. I'm definitely going. It will be my only opportunity to attend a game all season. I'm trying to get people down here to go up with me but not many people in Houston are even aware that hockey exists. Sad in a way.

If I have to I'll go by myself I don't care. But it would be cool to see fellow Pens fans there.
Rosewood Crescent Court has a Nobu, so I know where we could hover and wait for Geno autographs . . .

Hotel also has a chic bar . . .

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11-11-2011, 09:57 PM
  #34
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Rosewood Crescent Court has a Nobu, so I know where we could hover and wait for Geno autographs . . .

Hotel also has a chic bar . . .
Game on!

Edit: I've never been to Dallas. Would it be worth it to stay the night or just drive back home?


Last edited by Dick Sledge: 11-11-2011 at 09:59 PM. Reason: felt like it
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11-11-2011, 10:08 PM
  #35
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Yeah, I was thinking maybe Tangradi one day too.

BTW, CW, does the actual post make sense in terms of the line lacking a winger who consistently drives the net after dropping a pass to Malkin (and, by extension, that it deprives Malkin the chance to exploit one of the ways in which he most dangerous offensively)?

It's just you can tell something is missing. I do think the knee is part of it. But, when I thought back to how Malkin scored all of those goals at even strength, a lot of them happened in the scenario I described.

Now, Neal drops to him and peels off to find a shooting position. If Geno cuts to the middle, the second defender can cheat to him without consequence. And, if Geno gets off a shot, the goalie isn't screened.

I don't want Neal to change how he plays, but it seems pretty clear to me that it will be a bit harder for Malkin to completely be Malkin again until they find someone who will pretty consistently drive the net.
I think it's partly the knee, and partly chemistry. These 3 have really only had about 10 games together.

Sullivan-Malkin-Neal lacks Malone-Malkin-Sykora's net-front presence, but they can more than make up for it with Sullivan's playmaking and Neal's howitzer. Give 'em time.

Quote:
EDIT: Still have pipe dreams of a trade somehow for Kulemin, who actually plays that way for anyone who watches what he does on a line with Grabovski and MacArthur in Toronto. Sadly, it won't happen . . .
Well, his value's probably as low as it's been in a long time...

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11-11-2011, 10:15 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
I think it's partly the knee, and partly chemistry. These 3 have really only had about 10 games together.

Sullivan-Malkin-Neal lacks Malone-Malkin-Sykora's net-front presence, but they can more than make up for it with Sullivan's playmaking and Neal's howitzer. Give 'em time.



Well, his value's probably as low as it's been in a long time...
1. Agreed on Sullivan-Malkin-Neal added dynamic. It's why I referenced Malkin's knee. It's hard to appreciate what the line could do with Malkin lacking that preseason burst.

2. I pretty much NEVER propose trades, but here it goes . . .

Kennedy + Tangradi for Kulemin . . . not sure if Shero would trade Kennedy after just signing him, and I'm not sure if he'd like value (then again, I'm adding value of how Kulemin helps Malkin like Kunitz helps Sid); question is Toronto . . . TK give you comparable stats, has one more year (Kulemin if a RFA), and he'd get Tangradi.

As I said, I'm not sure about the value proposition, which is why I avoid trade proposals.

BUT, if it happened, the only question then for me would be Kunitz-Sid-Neal + Sullivan-Geno-Kulemin OR Kunitz-Sid-Sully + Kulemin-Geno-Neal (I actually think Sully would be even sicker with Sid and Kunitz and that second line would be a matchup nightmare for other teams). Then, you've got Cooke-Staal-Duper.

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11-11-2011, 10:17 PM
  #37
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Why would Toronto want TK and Tangradi for Kulemin? Staal would be the player Toronto goes for.

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11-11-2011, 10:23 PM
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+ Matt Cooke's hands


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11-11-2011, 10:28 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by 66-29-33 View Post
Why would Toronto want TK and Tangradi for Kulemin? Staal would be the player Toronto goes for.
Yes, he'd be the player they want, but they're not going to get him.

Kulemin has 2g, 4a in 16 games, which puts him on pace for like 10g, 20a. The line of Kulemin-Grabovski-MacArthur that was so good last year isn't doing squat this year. Kulemin is a RFA at the end of the year, and his last contract negotiation wasn't smooth.

In terms of stats, then Kennedy is comparable this year and was pretty close last year. Plus, he's got an extra year at 2 million, which avoids having to deal with the RFA situation. Add Tangradi to that, and I wonder how close you are.

As I said, my only question would be Kunitz-Sid-Sully + Kulemin-Malkin-Neal OR Kunitz-Sid-Neal + Sully-Malkin-Kulemin. I'm actually partial to the first combo . . . Sully would pretty much get the high slot clean looks Guerin used to get. And, I just don't know many teams with second defensive pairings that could handle Kulemin-Malkin-Neal.

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11-11-2011, 10:28 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Konstantin Koltsov View Post
+ Matt Cooke's hands

Nothing to add, just wanted to see that video a second time on this page . . .

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11-11-2011, 10:29 PM
  #41
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1. Agreed on Sullivan-Malkin-Neal added dynamic. It's why I referenced Malkin's knee. It's hard to appreciate what the line could do with Malkin lacking that preseason burst.

2. I pretty much NEVER propose trades, but here it goes . . .

Kennedy + Tangradi for Kulemin . . . not sure if Shero would trade Kennedy after just signing him, and I'm not sure if he'd like value (then again, I'm adding value of how Kulemin helps Malkin like Kunitz helps Sid); question is Toronto . . . TK give you comparable stats, has one more year (Kulemin if a RFA), and he'd get Tangradi.

As I said, I'm not sure about the value proposition, which is why I avoid trade proposals.

BUT, if it happened, the only question then for me would be Kunitz-Sid-Neal + Sullivan-Geno-Kulemin OR Kunitz-Sid-Sully + Kulemin-Geno-Neal (I actually think Sully would be even sicker with Sid and Kunitz and that second line would be a matchup nightmare for other teams). Then, you've got Cooke-Staal-Duper.
I think the value's decent considering Kulemin's start and Burke's love of American guys with size and truculence (), but I'm really not sure what Toronto's looking for these days.

They're doing pretty well overall, but if they continue to slide and Kulemin still hasn't picked it up, maybe our 1st would make for a more intriguing piece.

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11-11-2011, 10:34 PM
  #42
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Hey, here's actually a complaint about the Sullivan-Malkin-Neal line. It's missing a guy who will drive to the net.

I was watching the last few games and thinking back to the old Malone-Malkin-Sykora line. They'd come up 3 on 3 (or even Malkin and Malone 2 on 2), and they'd be a legitimate threat to score every time. I just don't sense that with Sullivan-Malkin-Neal, and I wonder if part of the reason is that the line lacks a power forward.

Neal is a skilled forward who plays a physical game, but there's a difference between that and a power forward. I'd almost compare him to Bill Guerin in his mid 20's. He'd bang bodies. He'd play physically. But, he was a big skilled guy.

Go back to Malone-Malkin-Sykora coming up 3 on 3. Almost all the time, it would be Malone skates into the zone with Malkin trailing. Malone drops the puck high in the zone to Malkin. Malone, instead of peeling off, like Neal does, would keep driving to the net. Then, Malkin has three options:

-- If the defensemen cheated to him, then he could complete the give and go with Malone.

-- If not, then he'd cut to the middle. If the defense stayed in man, then he'd have a little opening to fire a shot where the goalie would be screened since Malone was driving the net. If one defenseman stayed with Malone but, once he cut into the middle, the third defender cheated to him, he'd dish to Sykora, who'd have a shot on net with the goalie moving.

That's not a critique of Neal. Neal is who Neal is, and I love having him on the team. But, outside of 16 games where Talbot did one hell of a Malone impersonation, it's really the thing that's been missing for Malkin the last three years.

Maybe I'm off, but I just don't get that same 'o'k, something is going to happen' feeling with Sullivan-Malkin-Neal coming up 3 on 3 that I used to get with Malone-Malkin-Sykora, and I think the absence of a winger dropping the puck to Malkin and then driving straight towards the net every time is about the only thing I can identify at this point.

Thoughts?
Maybe I'm reading that last part wrong but I definitely get that "edge of your seat" feeling when I see Malkin, Sullivan and Neal go on an offensive rush. All three are dangerous offensively and I think the only "knock" on them are that they sometimes try to make that extra pass when they should just shoot the puck (lookin' at you Sully)..otherwise I think that line is on par with the most offensively dangerous lines in the league.

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11-11-2011, 10:38 PM
  #43
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I think the value's decent considering Kulemin's start and Burke's love of American guys with size and truculence (), but I'm really not sure what Toronto's looking for these days.
... not trading Kulemin? As a piece in getting a number 1C at if they were to be compelled to do so anyway?

Either way, the day Burke becomes enamoured with Tangradi enough to move Kulemin for him and TK, that is the day Tangradi starts looking like the real deal at the NHL level. That is also the day he is no longer in play as trade bait from our side, so....

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11-11-2011, 10:44 PM
  #44
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Fleury has been a beast, and Neal has been our best skater so far this year.

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11-11-2011, 10:45 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
I think the value's decent considering Kulemin's start and Burke's love of American guys with size and truculence (), but I'm really not sure what Toronto's looking for these days.

They're doing pretty well overall, but if they continue to slide and Kulemin still hasn't picked it up, maybe our 1st would make for a more intriguing piece.
The draft is in Pittsburgh, so I don't see us trading a 1st if Kennedy is involved. If Kennedy isn't involved AND Toronto slides AND we wait until the cap numbers work, then, yeah, I could see something like Tangradi + #1.

That said, I just proposed it in the trade thread, so I am expecting a beat down . . .

From Toronto's perspective, here's how I saw it: Kennedy gives you comparable numbers, although I'll grant that Kulemin is the better player. BUT, what they get are two things: A better cap situation for next season, as Kulemin is a RFA (that, in turn, will probably give them an extra million to shop for a top six forward) AND Tangradi (plus maybe something else small added).

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11-11-2011, 10:46 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
... not trading Kulemin? As a piece in getting a number 1C at if they were to be compelled to do so anyway?

Either way, the day Burke becomes enamoured with Tangradi enough to move Kulemin for him and TK, that is the day Tangradi starts looking like the real deal at the NHL level. That is also the day he is no longer in play as trade bait from our side, so....
More than likely. But Shero's worked his trade magic too many times to dismiss the idea entirely.

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11-11-2011, 10:47 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
... not trading Kulemin? As a piece in getting a number 1C at if they were to be compelled to do so anyway?

Either way, the day Burke becomes enamoured with Tangradi enough to move Kulemin for him and TK, that is the day Tangradi starts looking like the real deal at the NHL level. That is also the day he is no longer in play as trade bait from our side, so....
Yes, but let us dream . . .

BTW, Burke had his chance to move Kulemin for a #1 center (with Kadri for Richards), and he passed.

Kennedy + Tangradi + ??? (second round pick, another prospect)?

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11-11-2011, 10:48 PM
  #48
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The draft is in Pittsburgh, so I don't see us trading a 1st if Kennedy is involved. If Kennedy isn't involved AND Toronto slides AND we wait until the cap numbers work, then, yeah, I could see something like Tangradi + #1.
Oh yeah, forgot about that.

Quote:
That said, I just proposed it in the trade thread, so I am expecting a beat down . . .
Definitely. I know I would if it was my player on the wrong end of a quantity for quality deal, haha.

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11-11-2011, 10:49 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
More than likely. But Shero's worked his trade magic too many times to dismiss the idea entirely.
I did protect myself in my trade proposal thread post with the (+?)

TK + Tangradi + 2nd?

I think value is there (maybe even a slight overpayment), and then you consider the cap implications for Toronto for next year (an extra 1m to add a top six forward).

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11-11-2011, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
... not trading Kulemin? As a piece in getting a number 1C at if they were to be compelled to do so anyway?

Either way, the day Burke becomes enamoured with Tangradi enough to move Kulemin for him and TK, that is the day Tangradi starts looking like the real deal at the NHL level. That is also the day he is no longer in play as trade bait from our side, so....
I personally believe Tangradi is as good as gone at the TD for a winger. Our top forwards prospect only got 7 minutes tonight. and Bylsma does not really like him as he does not fit in with his teachings. I'd say Tangradi + 2012 1st will be our TD assets. As for who? who knows.

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