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+/- Pens v Stars (The Tired of Waiting for Cole Edition)

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Old
11-11-2011, 11:52 PM
  #51
KIRK
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Oh yeah, forgot about that.



Definitely. I know I would if it was my player on the wrong end of a quantity for quality deal, haha.
Well, turnabout is fair play, given the way that thread works . . .

That said, can you think of something? I really tried to avoid a quantity for quality type of deal, which is why I started with Kennedy, who, again, has comparable stats and a better cap number for next year.

So, the offer is a player with comparable stats, 1m extra to play with next year, and then add from the prospect and pick pool.

It's why I hate making trade proposals.

P.S.: I expect you to defend me as well meaning, and, BTW, my trade proposal is far less offensive than the Kulemin for Staal proposals.

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11-11-2011, 11:53 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by 66-29-33 View Post
I personally believe Tangradi is as good as gone at the TD for a winger. Our top forwards prospect only got 7 minutes tonight. and Bylsma does not really like him as he does not fit in with his teachings. I'd say Tangradi + 2012 1st will be our TD assets. As for who? who knows.
Curiously, if Toronto slips or needs cap space for another deal, Tangradi + 1st might be the deal to get Kulemin.

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11-11-2011, 11:55 PM
  #53
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The draft is in Pittsburgh, so I don't see us trading a 1st
Shero comes off as a guy who does not care where the draft is at, even here. That pick would probably go anyway, if it gets us a good shot at the cup. I'd love to keep the pick, though. The draft is SO DEEP, it feels wrong to trade our 1st away when it's Shero's all you can eat buffet in terms of a loaded D 1st round. It would feel criminal to trade it away, but for another cup how can you not? aslong as it's not for an aging vet....

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11-11-2011, 11:56 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Well, turnabout is fair play, given the way that thread works . . .

That said, can you think of something? I really tried to avoid a quantity for quality type of deal, which is why I started with Kennedy, who, again, has comparable stats and a better cap number for next year.

So, the offer is a player with comparable stats, 1m extra to play with next year, and then add from the prospect and pick pool.

It's why I hate making trade proposals.

P.S.: I expect you to defend me as well meaning, and, BTW, my trade proposal is far less offensive than the Kulemin for Staal proposals.
I just think the Leafs would rather bury a guy like Komisarek and retain Kulemin for any semi-reasonable amount as an RFA hoping he could regain his 30 goal form rather than double down on him. At least I would if I were a Leafs fan.

Cap space is probably their last worry, since they have the resources to get rid of pretty much any albatross they have.

Plus Leafs fans are notorious for overrating their assets. So there's that.

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11-12-2011, 12:02 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
I just think the Leafs would rather bury a guy like Komisarek and retain Kulemin for any semi-reasonable amount as an RFA hoping he could regain his 30 goal form rather than double down on him. At least I would if I were a Leafs fan.

Cap space is probably their last worry, since they have the resources to get rid of pretty much any albatross they have.

Plus Leafs fans are notorious for overrating their assets. So there's that.
Revised proposal then, since I'm a little light:

Kennedy + Tangradi + 1st for Kulemin + 2nd OR 3rd/5th (depending upon the gap between the Pens 1st and Toronto's 2nd, say 2nd if Toronto makes playoffs and 3rd/5th if they don't).

I think now some Pens fans might skewer me though . . .

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11-12-2011, 12:04 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by 66-29-33 View Post
Shero comes off as a guy who does not care where the draft is at, even here. That pick would probably go anyway, if it gets us a good shot at the cup. I'd love to keep the pick, though. The draft is SO DEEP, it feels wrong to trade our 1st away when it's Shero's all you can eat buffet in terms of a loaded D 1st round. It would feel criminal to trade it away, but for another cup how can you not? aslong as it's not for an aging vet....
I always hate trading picks, but the Pens are in win every year mode. If you can get a guy who helps make your team in general or Sid/Geno specifically better and fits your 2-3 year payroll, then I have no problem moving the #1 and losing a guy you won't see in 3 years anyway.

Frankly, it's why Shero is drafting defensemen, so he can keep doing Whitney and Gogo style trades. I suspect Martin is up next on that one . . .

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11-12-2011, 12:04 AM
  #57
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I just don't get why anyone entertains these kind of trade ideas when we're first in the league while deprived of Sid, Michalek and Kennedy with Malkin still only coming back into high gear.

Tangradi isn't really behind schedule, and the value of someone like him chipping in from the second or third line plus PP over the next years while on a very affordable contract, that is major.
Just like it has been major getting the kind of contributions we had from Kennedy for years at a bit more than 700k per year before he earned 'real' NHL money.
It affords us the opportunity to pay our stars and get good names in free agency. To me it seems weird even considering trading someone like Tangradi at the very least until he has done enough to have real trade value. Right now some of us - me included - might assign a lot of value to him based on potential, but if he was playing for another team, most of us would be going "show me some production and I'll think on it".

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11-12-2011, 12:05 AM
  #58
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+

60 Minutes against Best in the West with Right Result.

Neal - two clutch goals after others waived off, lots of hustle tonight.

Kunitz - was all over the place tonight making things happen even if he did get hosed by the refs.

PP - clicking on all cylinders

Cooke - frickin penalty shot goal... perfect. All the Cooke haters who say he can't play, can eat it.


-

Steigy and Errey - bumbling their way through one Veteran's Day interview after the other. Nappy time, Errey?? WTF. These are soldiers, don't talk about them / to them like they're 5 year olds you airhead.

Root - for doing those stupid scripted player comments between commercials. Johnson and Neal sounded so stilted... just let them speak from their hearts, you morons. More Pittsburgh media gold. Is Dwight Schrute producing these games?

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11-12-2011, 12:06 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Revised proposal then, since I'm a little light:

Kennedy + Tangradi + 1st for Kulemin + 2nd OR 3rd/5th (depending upon the gap between the Pens 1st and Toronto's 2nd, say 2nd if Toronto makes playoffs and 3rd/5th if they don't).

I think now some Pens fans might skewer me though . . .
Not bad. We're giving up a fair bit considering this is supposed to be a deep draft.

It gives me pause, which probably means it's pretty fair.

TK + ET + 1st

for

NK + 2nd/3rd depending on final standings

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11-12-2011, 12:10 AM
  #60
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Cooke - frickin penalty shot goal... perfect. All the Cooke haters who say he can't play, can eat it.
The guy is on pace for 45 points. 25 goals 20 assists. I thought all he could do is end careers doing 360 spins in the air with his skate blade out and eating their childrens school lunches?

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11-12-2011, 12:15 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by 66-29-33 View Post
The guy is on pace for 45 points. 25 goals 20 assists. I thought all he could do is end careers doing 360 spins in the air with his skate blade out and eating their children school lunches?

Fixed. Everyone knows Matt Cooke is a cannibal.

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11-12-2011, 12:17 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
I just don't get why anyone entertains these kind of trade ideas when we're first in the league while deprived of Sid, Michalek and Kennedy with Malkin still only coming back into high gear.

Tangradi isn't really behind schedule, and the value of someone like him chipping in from the second or third line plus PP over the next years while on a very affordable contract, that is major.
Just like it has been major getting the kind of contributions we had from Kennedy for years at a bit more than 700k per year before he earned 'real' NHL money.
It affords us the opportunity to pay our stars and get good names in free agency. To me it seems weird even considering trading someone like Tangradi at the very least until he has done enough to have real trade value. Right now some of us - me included - might assign a lot of value to him based on potential, but if he was playing for another team, most of us would be going "show me some production and I'll think on it".
I typically do NOT entertain trade proposals. 95% of them on the main board can't even get the value to be fair (or close to fair).

AND, I don't assign a ton of value to Tangradi. Frankly, I assign the same value as a late second or early third round pick.

That said, here's what I was looking at: I think Kulemin is a far better fit for our top six than Kennedy. You can disagree, and that's fine. BUT, I see a better top 6 fit at a prorated cap hit for the rest of the season of about 250K. Outside of Kennedy, what of direct value to the team in the next 2-3 years is sacrificed? So, if I can upgrade my top 6 for 250K in extra cap $$$ this year and thus leave Ray Shero still with a lot of room for the deadline, I don't see it as an absurd proposal.

There are other reasons for either side to reject it, but that was my motive in making the proposal.

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11-12-2011, 12:20 AM
  #63
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+Malkin could have had 3-4 points if he took the EN goal and Kunitz's goals were allowed.

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Old
11-12-2011, 12:23 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Not bad. We're giving up a fair bit considering this is supposed to be a deep draft.

It gives me pause, which probably means it's pretty fair.

TK + ET + 1st

for

NK + 2nd/3rd depending on final standings
It gave me pause too, but, as noted, my thinking is that the Pens are in win every year mode. There are no five year plans. I don't want to throw away top picks on waste deals, but Kulemin has two advantages:

1. For this year, the extra prorated cap hit is 250K. I've got a top six of Sid, Geno, Kunitz, Neal, Sullivan and then Kulemin with a third line of Cooke-Staal-Dupuis. Where's the flaw? Would Shero get better at the deadline, and at what price anyway? Funny thing is Shero still would have close to a million (like 4M prorated at the deadline) for shopping, like for a big defensive upgrade.

2. For the next 2-3 years, it works too, as Kulemin is a RFA and wouldn't be a bank buster. Plus, given how Shero has drafted defensively, I suspect a Martin deal (a la Whitney or Gogo) will happen probably this or next offseason.

Anyway, I see it as a trade designed to help the team over the next 3 years. Longer term, the Pens probably lose in terms of the value. BUT, longer term, Sid and Geno won't be in their mid 20's.

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11-12-2011, 12:24 AM
  #65
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Fixed. Everyone knows Matt Cooke is a cannibal.
Yeah, but he would still eat their school lunches. That's just classless!

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11-12-2011, 12:24 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Iffyiffiffer View Post
+Malkin could have had 3-4 points if he took the EN goal and Kunitz's goals were allowed.
Yep. That said, I'm glad he tried to keep forcing the puck to Neal so he could get the EN HT.

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11-12-2011, 12:33 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
It gave me pause too, but, as noted, my thinking is that the Pens are in win every year mode. There are no five year plans. I don't want to throw away top picks on waste deals, but Kulemin has two advantages:

1. For this year, the extra prorated cap hit is 250K. I've got a top six of Sid, Geno, Kunitz, Neal, Sullivan and then Kulemin with a third line of Cooke-Staal-Dupuis. Where's the flaw? Would Shero get better at the deadline, and at what price anyway? Funny thing is Shero still would have close to a million (like 4M prorated at the deadline) for shopping, like for a big defensive upgrade.

2. For the next 2-3 years, it works too, as Kulemin is a RFA and wouldn't be a bank buster. Plus, given how Shero has drafted defensively, I suspect a Martin deal (a la Whitney or Gogo) will happen probably this or next offseason.

Anyway, I see it as a trade designed to help the team over the next 3 years. Longer term, the Pens probably lose in terms of the value. BUT, longer term, Sid and Geno won't be in their mid 20's.
I like it. Probably pull the trigger.

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11-12-2011, 12:41 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
I like it. Probably pull the trigger.
Leafs fans don't if you read the few responses. Leaving aside the 1-2 idiots, it's either 'not enough' or 'close' but the big complaint is that, if they move Kulemin, they'd want it to be for an upgrade.

Eh, it's probably close in terms of value. At the very least, the Kennedy+ for Kulemin offer is a hell of a lot less insulting than their Kulemin (maybe plus) for Staal offers . . .

Side note: Rumor sites are BS, but I do wonder about that one floated over the summer about the Pens making an offer for Kulemin in the sense that if, by remote chance, it was true what Shero actually would have offered.

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11-12-2011, 12:43 AM
  #69
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+ 2-0 on GDTs

- Didn't get to see the game... Who were the two no-goals by?

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11-12-2011, 12:45 AM
  #70
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Not enough quality going to Toronto in that Kulemin deal IMO.

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11-12-2011, 12:50 AM
  #71
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+ 2-0 on GDTs

- Didn't get to see the game... Who were the two no-goals by?
Malkin shot redirected by Kunitz both times.

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11-12-2011, 12:51 AM
  #72
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Not enough quality going to Toronto in that Kulemin deal IMO.
That's cool (saw your reply in trade thread). FYI, it's why I don't propose trades.

There's no piece aside from Kennedy on the roster that will happen from a Pens perspective. In terms of prospects, the only three definitively better than Tangradi are Bennett, Despres, and Morrow. Morrow goes nowhere. Do you see Despres being moved? Bennett? And, would you move either for Kulemin as part of a Kennedy+ deal?

Side note: My other thought was that a player like Kulemin along with a prospect is precisely the type of return Shero will be seeking when he moves Martin (I'm suspecting it will be Martin) for cap reasons next offseason or more likely the one after.

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11-12-2011, 12:51 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Leafs fans don't if you read the few responses. Leaving aside the 1-2 idiots, it's either 'not enough' or 'close' but the big complaint is that, if they move Kulemin, they'd want it to be for an upgrade.

Eh, it's probably close in terms of value. At the very least, the Kennedy+ for Kulemin offer is a hell of a lot less insulting than their Kulemin (maybe plus) for Staal offers . . .

Side note: Rumor sites are BS, but I do wonder about that one floated over the summer about the Pens making an offer for Kulemin in the sense that if, by remote chance, it was true what Shero actually would have offered.
I'm not surprised. No fanbase wants to be giving up the best player in the deal. Pretty much ever.

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11-12-2011, 12:53 AM
  #74
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Sorry guys.. had to run to a pick up hockey game as soon as the Pens game ended. You guys hit the nail on the head.

Ironically, I thought the only two guys that looked like absolute **** were Malkin & Letang. It happens. I never really care until it becomes a trend. They are human and are bound to have a few terrible games. Geno was just fine leading up to tonight. Letang was also one of our best players. They'll turn it around.

Everyone else really played their ***** off. Fleury isn't getting enough love, but he's our true MVP this season.

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11-12-2011, 12:54 AM
  #75
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+Malkin could have had 3-4 points if he took the EN goal and Kunitz's goals were allowed.
I'm still not sure how Kunitz managed to deflect a puck up into the net with a stick above the crossbar . . .

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