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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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Old
11-12-2011, 01:22 AM
  #126
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Two things about Flash:

1. If Sherman gets the blame for letting him walk, he should also get credit for trading for the guy in the first place.

2. While I agree his health issues are a major concern, and the fact that the Avs were better off not paying the hefty sum the Panthers handed him, did management even ATTEMPT to negotiate with Fleischmann and his agent? Yes, yes, I get it, his condition was worsened at altitude, but if doctors cleared him to play and he wanted to stay (his camp said as much, so take it however you will) then I hope management made some kind of effort. If they didn't, and I know I've been saying this a lot, it's inexcusable. We'll probably never know.

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11-12-2011, 12:23 PM
  #127
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Seems like Sherman & Co. are taking a lot of flack for signing Lindström and Kobasew, but I think they should still be considered depth signings in place of Hishon and Mueller. Would you guys rather have Stoa and Mauldin in the lineup?

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11-12-2011, 12:29 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by en_snabb_svensk View Post
Seems like Sherman & Co. are taking a lot of flack for signing Lindström and Kobasew, but I think they should still be considered depth signings in place of Hishon and Mueller. Would you guys rather have Stoa and Mauldin in the lineup?
If their play in an Avalanche jersey is what we're basing this on, then yes, I would absolutely prefer to have Mauldin occupying our 4th line than Kobasew. More speed and grit, not mentally challenged.

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11-12-2011, 12:39 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by en_snabb_svensk View Post
Seems like Sherman & Co. are taking a lot of flack for signing Lindström and Kobasew, but I think they should still be considered depth signings in place of Hishon and Mueller. Would you guys rather have Stoa and Mauldin in the lineup?
If that's the case, then why did we sign so many defensemen? Why didn't we just count on Cameron Gaunce, Joel Chouinard and Matt Hunwick to carry the load?

They weren't willing to take chances on D, yet they were willing to take a chance that a guy who missed all of last season with PCS and has a history of concussion problems and a kid fresh out of junior who got concussed last season with a major offensive role? If so, that's just plain silly. Management made it clear they were through having the Avs pushed around and manhandled in the defensive zone, but apparently they don't care if that's the case on offense.

And they still suck as depth signings.

Oh and to answer your question, YES I'd rather have Mauldin here. Maybe not Stoa, but yes, Mauldin has at least proven to be a depth player who can do spot duty in a larger role.

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11-14-2011, 05:57 AM
  #130
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I have a problem with Sherman.

I'm not saying he's a complete moron. He has done some relatively decent patch-work since he's started, and I can understand his thinking in going out and acquiring a young number one d-man, but honestly this guy just makes mistake after mistake after mistake and so on.

There was a time when this club had one of the youngest, most dangerous and developing offences in the league. We had perhaps the best young power-forward in the league in Stewart, a very promising leader in Shattenkirk and a solid goaltender in Anderson, who singlehandedly stole us play-off games not to mention playing like 70 games and facing more shots than any other goaltender in the league.

Even Wolski was a loss, when you consider we got 15 games from a head case for him.

Stewart and Shattenkirk were both first-round picks developed in our system and were developing an awesome chemistry with the rest of this team... Does anyone remember the days where we held onto our top prospects? Anyone remember Drury, Tanguay, Hinote, and Skoula? Sakic for that matter?

Gone. those assets are gone. what did we get? Erik Johnson, who, while good, is no Nicklas Lidstrom. He's not even a top 10 d man in this league. maybe not even top 20. We overpaid big time.

We traded Anderson ( a middle-of the pack starter) for Elliott (a crappy back-up). Who in their right mind would make this deal?

Then we overpaid for Varlamov. (first and a second?). You realize this kid lost his starting job to not one but two AHL goalies last season? Oh, and when we made the trade he wanted to go back to Russia. It wasn't even a certainty that he would play for us. are you kidding me? were gonna finish near the bottom of the league again and now we don't have a first or a second. real smart greg. Then we let Fleischmann go. He was one of the only reasons we didn't lose every game in the second half of the season last year. I didn't like the Hunwick deal either. JML for a second???? he was one of the top scoring d men in the league last year. omg....

Some of Sherman's signings have been ok. I like O'Byrne and O'Brien. I like Winnik. Drafting Landeskog was a good decision. But man, the rest of his trades have been garbage. He is getting ripped off around the league and I'm sure other GMs are starting to notice this guy is an easy trade-win waiting to happen.

I predict Stastny will soon be gone, and we will not get a very good return.

PLEASE HOCKEY GODS SMITE GREG SHERMAN!!! Amen.

I hear fans blaming Sacco. And I don't think he's the greatest coach in the league either, but what is he supposed to do when he gets a young team and he coaches them to one of the best starts in franchise history, then two key pieces are ripped away from the team? Stastny, instead of playing with Stewart, has been playing with a merry-go-round of wingers, the best of whom is Jones. Are you kidding? of course his production is gonna go down. of course he is gonna be frustrated with this fanchise. I am. So how do you think he feels....

I don't expect anyone to read this whole rant... i'm just getting it out there for therapeutic reasons.
Hopefully the development of Landeskog, O'Reilly, Duchene, Varlamov, Elliott and Barrie can bring this team to the middle-of the pack in a couple years, provided he doesn't trade those players for skittles. But if Sherman's in charge this team will never make it to the top. just my opinion.

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Old
11-14-2011, 09:25 AM
  #131
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There is no way I will ever believe we lost the Wolski trade. Porter alone has been better than Wolski.

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11-14-2011, 12:49 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Danger Snake View Post
There is no way I will ever believe we lost the Wolski trade. Porter alone has been better than Wolski.
I don't think anyone really "won" that trade. I've pretty much written it off myself.

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11-14-2011, 01:21 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by FreshFitted67 View Post
I have a problem with Sherman.

I'm not saying he's a complete moron. He has done some relatively decent patch-work since he's started, and I can understand his thinking in going out and acquiring a young number one d-man, but honestly this guy just makes mistake after mistake after mistake and so on.

There was a time when this club had one of the youngest, most dangerous and developing offences in the league. We had perhaps the best young power-forward in the league in Stewart, a very promising leader in Shattenkirk and a solid goaltender in Anderson, who singlehandedly stole us play-off games not to mention playing like 70 games and facing more shots than any other goaltender in the league.

Even Wolski was a loss, when you consider we got 15 games from a head case for him.

Stewart and Shattenkirk were both first-round picks developed in our system and were developing an awesome chemistry with the rest of this team... Does anyone remember the days where we held onto our top prospects? Anyone remember Drury, Tanguay, Hinote, and Skoula? Sakic for that matter?

Gone. those assets are gone. what did we get? Erik Johnson, who, while good, is no Nicklas Lidstrom. He's not even a top 10 d man in this league. maybe not even top 20. We overpaid big time.

We traded Anderson ( a middle-of the pack starter) for Elliott (a crappy back-up). Who in their right mind would make this deal?

Then we overpaid for Varlamov. (first and a second?). You realize this kid lost his starting job to not one but two AHL goalies last season? Oh, and when we made the trade he wanted to go back to Russia. It wasn't even a certainty that he would play for us. are you kidding me? were gonna finish near the bottom of the league again and now we don't have a first or a second. real smart greg. Then we let Fleischmann go. He was one of the only reasons we didn't lose every game in the second half of the season last year. I didn't like the Hunwick deal either. JML for a second???? he was one of the top scoring d men in the league last year. omg....

Some of Sherman's signings have been ok. I like O'Byrne and O'Brien. I like Winnik. Drafting Landeskog was a good decision. But man, the rest of his trades have been garbage. He is getting ripped off around the league and I'm sure other GMs are starting to notice this guy is an easy trade-win waiting to happen.

I predict Stastny will soon be gone, and we will not get a very good return.

PLEASE HOCKEY GODS SMITE GREG SHERMAN!!! Amen.

I hear fans blaming Sacco. And I don't think he's the greatest coach in the league either, but what is he supposed to do when he gets a young team and he coaches them to one of the best starts in franchise history, then two key pieces are ripped away from the team? Stastny, instead of playing with Stewart, has been playing with a merry-go-round of wingers, the best of whom is Jones. Are you kidding? of course his production is gonna go down. of course he is gonna be frustrated with this fanchise. I am. So how do you think he feels....

I don't expect anyone to read this whole rant... i'm just getting it out there for therapeutic reasons.
Hopefully the development of Landeskog, O'Reilly, Duchene, Varlamov, Elliott and Barrie can bring this team to the middle-of the pack in a couple years, provided he doesn't trade those players for skittles. But if Sherman's in charge this team will never make it to the top. just my opinion.
Seriously guy, posts like this are we I no longer post on New York Knicks boards. Not ripping the other team off in a trade =/= getting ripped off, especially when dealing from a position of strength and filling a hole.

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Old
11-14-2011, 01:31 PM
  #134
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Agreed--even if it does end up being a lottery pick, I think we still have gotten good value for it. All we lose is a lot of face, which sucks, but it's not the end of the world.

Nonetheless, management said when they made that trade that they are through waiting--the time to win is NOW. Granted, this was a trade for the future as well since Varly is still young yet, but you don't trade away 1st rounders if you're still in rebuild mode. That's why it irks me to no end that they did such a piss-poor job grabbing bargain-bin discounts. Even if they were trying to go cheap, there were better options.
Winning isn't just about talent though. Winning is about that talent learning how to win, and so yes we're no longer in the assembling assets phase of our rebuild, but that doesn't mean we're ready to contend for a cup either because our young core needs to learn on their own. That's why you pick up bargain guys so that you don't commit yourself to more expensive guys but instead let the young guys become the players they're going to become and then use that cap space you've been saving to add the right pieces to give us exactly what's need and not just "bringing in more talent". Then you consider the CBA coming up and all of the youngsters we're going to have to re-sign and you start to understand that we still need to be very careful with our cash to make sure we can make the big moves that we'll need to really push this core to contender status.

Our youngins might be developing a little better if we had another competent top 6 winger or two, but it's not like their growth is being seriously impeded by our talent level since we're still far from the cellar and being a lousy team.

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11-15-2011, 02:42 AM
  #135
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Seriously guy, posts like this are we I no longer post on New York Knicks boards. Not ripping the other team off in a trade =/= getting ripped off, especially when dealing from a position of strength and filling a hole.
dude if you're referring to the stewart/shattenkirk/johnson trade, you're just plain wrong. every major analyst said that St. Louis won the deal. And if you watch St. Louis and Colorado games, you'd know they're right. Johnson is not a top 10 d man. Stewart is a Top 10 power forward. Right there i'd say it's over.

Would you make this trade again? If you say yes.... ***hf boards won't let me post the rest of this sentence***

100000000000$ says st. louis finishes ahead of Colorado at the end of the season. Whether you think that is a fair measure of who won the trade or not is irrelevant. Why? Because it IS a fair measure of our GM due to the fact that Colorado had a much more promising future just a few short seasons ago.

Look, if you think Sherman is a good GM, fine. Believe what you will, but consider this a warning. he's awful. that's the truth and I think in a season or two, those of you who disagree now... will probably be calling for his head in the future.

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11-15-2011, 03:27 AM
  #136
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dude if you're referring to the stewart/shattenkirk/johnson trade, you're just plain wrong. every major analyst said that St. Louis won the deal. And if you watch St. Louis and Colorado games, you'd know they're right. Johnson is not a top 10 d man. Stewart is a Top 10 power forward. Right there i'd say it's over.

Would you make this trade again? If you say yes.... ***hf boards won't let me post the rest of this sentence***

100000000000$ says st. louis finishes ahead of Colorado at the end of the season. Whether you think that is a fair measure of who won the trade or not is irrelevant. Why? Because it IS a fair measure of our GM due to the fact that Colorado had a much more promising future just a few short seasons ago.

Look, if you think Sherman is a good GM, fine. Believe what you will, but consider this a warning. he's awful. that's the truth and I think in a season or two, those of you who disagree now... will probably be calling for his head in the future.
You think that we lost that Wolski trade, therefore it's pretty hard to take anything you say seriously.

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11-15-2011, 10:07 AM
  #137
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dude if you're referring to the stewart/shattenkirk/johnson trade, you're just plain wrong. every major analyst said that St. Louis won the deal. And if you watch St. Louis and Colorado games, you'd know they're right. Johnson is not a top 10 d man. Stewart is a Top 10 power forward. Right there i'd say it's over.

Would you make this trade again? If you say yes.... ***hf boards won't let me post the rest of this sentence***

100000000000$ says st. louis finishes ahead of Colorado at the end of the season. Whether you think that is a fair measure of who won the trade or not is irrelevant. Why? Because it IS a fair measure of our GM due to the fact that Colorado had a much more promising future just a few short seasons ago.

Look, if you think Sherman is a good GM, fine. Believe what you will, but consider this a warning. he's awful. that's the truth and I think in a season or two, those of you who disagree now... will probably be calling for his head in the future.
Let's just say that I believe that you are significantly over-rating Stewart because of his potential while ignoring his shortcomings and inconsistency and under-rating EJ because of his inconsistency while ignoring his potential. Top 10 wingers in the NHL score more than 28 goals a year, just like top tier #1 Dmen don't make the mistakes EJ makes.

Additionally you seem to think this is a deal were we'll be able to determine that one team clearly won in less than 3 years, which I find asinine. Personally I think both teams won that trade, the Blues added a good young PMD, a super streaky but super talented winger and a 2nd round pick while losing their first rounder, a big minute Dman that they had a replacement for and a good PKer, so they didn't open any holes in their organization while stocking up in some areas they weren't as deep. We added a big minute Dman who's still streaky but is even more superbly gifted than MBP, a top 11 pick that became another big strong Dman who can really skate and solid bottom 6er while giving up a PMD who we had replacements for, a 2nd round pick and a 28 goal scorer.

I'd definitely do this trade again, I'd do this trade 8 times out of 10. But how good of an idea that turns out to be won't be clear for years until we see these guys actually hit their primes. If EJ follows the Chara or Pronger career path, Siemens turns into a left handed Seabrook while Shatty plateau's due to his size and Stewie's inconsistency never gets better, then we would win this trade by a landslide regardless of what happens this season or even next.

As for our future being more promising a few seasons ago I disagree immensely. We had a career backup goalie nearing 30 and no Dman who could actually play top 4 minutes without being a liability in his own zone. Our young core is much more balanced now with Varly, EJ, Dutchy, Staz, Radar, Lando, Quincey, Jones and all of the kids who haven't made the NHL yet, give them a few years to grow out of their inconsistencies and this is a core that can win cups in their prime. Which IMO is a GM's job.

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11-15-2011, 12:07 PM
  #138
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Winning isn't just about talent though. Winning is about that talent learning how to win, and so yes we're no longer in the assembling assets phase of our rebuild, but that doesn't mean we're ready to contend for a cup either because our young core needs to learn on their own. That's why you pick up bargain guys so that you don't commit yourself to more expensive guys but instead let the young guys become the players they're going to become and then use that cap space you've been saving to add the right pieces to give us exactly what's need and not just "bringing in more talent". Then you consider the CBA coming up and all of the youngsters we're going to have to re-sign and you start to understand that we still need to be very careful with our cash to make sure we can make the big moves that we'll need to really push this core to contender status.

Our youngins might be developing a little better if we had another competent top 6 winger or two, but it's not like their growth is being seriously impeded by our talent level since we're still far from the cellar and being a lousy team.
I'm tiring of the "we're waiting for the new CBA" excuse. That's no reason to hug the salary floor like an action movie hero on a helicopter landing skid.

I'm also not expecting these guys to be Stanley Cup contenders this year, nor am I expecting it next year, or even the year after that. What I AM expecting is progression, and what I'm seeing is regression. True, Sacco got these guys to overachieve and maybe raised our expectations a bit prematurely, but I keep hearing about how this team has been working toward being an up-tempo, puck possession team. The personnel I'm seeing now are absolutely NOT a puck possession team, nor or they dynamic, nor are they up-tempo. But they're not really a defensive-oriented team either. Frankly, I don't know what the hell they are. And given the fact they changed their mind about naming a captain, it appears they might not know either. This is a team missing an identity, partially because management abruptly changed their approach last season when they realized they went overboard with speed and skill at the expense of size and strength. IMO they overcompensated in that regard, getting rid of every last undersized puckmoving defender in favor of bigger, tougher blueliners. There was no reason to jettison Liles if they were going to surround him with bigger bodies. He only became a liability when we lost Quincey right after trading Hannan and had guys like Shattenkirk, Hunwick, Cumiskey, and Holos rotating in and out of the lineup. Conversely, we traded away a lot of forwards who gave us a semblance of a puck possession game and replaced them with unskilled grinders (in the case of Kobasew, unskilled is an understatement). No surprise, the few forwards who actually do thrive on a puck cycling, puck possession game (Duchene) have struggled.

You want a team that needs to chip it in, grind it out, and score garbage goals? Fine. Then put the personnel out there who can do that. Guys like Lindstrom can't do that. Guys like Kobasew can't do that. And to have put so many eggs in the fragile basket known as Peter Mueller for actual finish is (and I'm going to keep saying this) inexcusable. Even a rebuilding team needs to have some kind of blueprint for success in the here and now. I don't see that right now. How is this team supposed to score consistently? They're not playing well enough at either end of the ice right now, and that's not just coaching, that's management icing an inadequate team when they know damned well they could've done better.

I am glad this team isn't spending like drunken sailors. But I'm also concerned that this organization, from top to bottom, is missing an identity, and frankly I've lost confidence that they have a firm plan in place. A lot of the moves of late simply don't mesh together well. There's a lot of finger-crossing and places where I feel management is completely contradicting themselves. That doesn't speak well about a rebuild. I feel more and more like these guys are turning into hockey's version of the Rockies, with a General Manager who seemingly changes his "plan" every season and when they don't lead to sustained success, making panic trades to try and fill in the very holes he created through botched deals, bad drafts, and over-reliance on prospects who simply didn't pan out. Thankfully it ain't THAT bad yet, but I feel it's moving toward that.

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11-15-2011, 12:33 PM
  #139
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I'm tiring of the "we're waiting for the new CBA" excuse. That's no reason to hug the salary floor like an action movie hero on a helicopter landing skid.

I'm also not expecting these guys to be Stanley Cup contenders this year, nor am I expecting it next year, or even the year after that. What I AM expecting is progression, and what I'm seeing is regression. True, Sacco got these guys to overachieve and maybe raised our expectations a bit prematurely, but I keep hearing about how this team has been working toward being an up-tempo, puck possession team. The personnel I'm seeing now are absolutely NOT a puck possession team, nor or they dynamic, nor are they up-tempo. But they're not really a defensive-oriented team either. Frankly, I don't know what the hell they are. And given the fact they changed their mind about naming a captain, it appears they might not know either. This is a team missing an identity, partially because management abruptly changed their approach last season when they realized they went overboard with speed and skill at the expense of size and strength. IMO they overcompensated in that regard, getting rid of every last undersized puckmoving defender in favor of bigger, tougher blueliners. There was no reason to jettison Liles if they were going to surround him with bigger bodies. He only became a liability when we lost Quincey right after trading Hannan and had guys like Shattenkirk, Hunwick, Cumiskey, and Holos rotating in and out of the lineup. Conversely, we traded away a lot of forwards who gave us a semblance of a puck possession game and replaced them with unskilled grinders (in the case of Kobasew, unskilled is an understatement). No surprise, the few forwards who actually do thrive on a puck cycling, puck possession game (Duchene) have struggled.

You want a team that needs to chip it in, grind it out, and score garbage goals? Fine. Then put the personnel out there who can do that. Guys like Lindstrom can't do that. Guys like Kobasew can't do that. And to have put so many eggs in the fragile basket known as Peter Mueller for actual finish is (and I'm going to keep saying this) inexcusable. Even a rebuilding team needs to have some kind of blueprint for success in the here and now. I don't see that right now. How is this team supposed to score consistently? They're not playing well enough at either end of the ice right now, and that's not just coaching, that's management icing an inadequate team when they know damned well they could've done better.

I am glad this team isn't spending like drunken sailors. But I'm also concerned that this organization, from top to bottom, is missing an identity, and frankly I've lost confidence that they have a firm plan in place. A lot of the moves of late simply don't mesh together well. There's a lot of finger-crossing and places where I feel management is completely contradicting themselves. That doesn't speak well about a rebuild. I feel more and more like these guys are turning into hockey's version of the Rockies, with a General Manager who seemingly changes his "plan" every season and when they don't lead to sustained success, making panic trades to try and fill in the very holes he created through botched deals, bad drafts, and over-reliance on prospects who simply didn't pan out. Thankfully it ain't THAT bad yet, but I feel it's moving toward that.
*shrug* well that sucks for you. I'm happy to wait on this team to grow into the well balanced well rounded team that this core should become. What you describe as lacking an identity is faulty to me since you're gripe seems to be that we're opting for balance rather than putting all of our eggs into one basket of being either a high scoring team or defensive team, which IMO is stupid since the best teams do both very well. We didn't overcompensate going for size, we focused on adding size in the offseason because we had speedy blueliners coming up the pipeline quick, so finding some big guys who could play in the NHL when the kids made it was very important since we only really have Gaunce as a guy who's close in the pipeline and now Siemens as another big body that'll be added to the fray down the road.

I want a team that has a great goalie a very tough Blueline that has offensive flare and can roll 3 quality scoring lines up front...that's the team we're assembling, everyone still needs to get better, some kids need to make it into the show and we need to bolster our winger depth, but those aren't massively complicated problems for a team to solve over the next 2 years or so we have before we'll be serious about making a deep playoff run.

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11-15-2011, 12:57 PM
  #140
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*shrug* well that sucks for you. I'm happy to wait on this team to grow into the well balanced well rounded team that this core should become. What you describe as lacking an identity is faulty to me since you're gripe seems to be that we're opting for balance rather than putting all of our eggs into one basket of being either a high scoring team or defensive team, which IMO is stupid since the best teams do both very well. We didn't overcompensate going for size, we focused on adding size in the offseason because we had speedy blueliners coming up the pipeline quick, so finding some big guys who could play in the NHL when the kids made it was very important since we only really have Gaunce as a guy who's close in the pipeline and now Siemens as another big body that'll be added to the fray down the road.

I want a team that has a great goalie a very tough Blueline that has offensive flare and can roll 3 quality scoring lines up front...that's the team we're assembling, everyone still needs to get better, some kids need to make it into the show and we need to bolster our winger depth, but those aren't massively complicated problems for a team to solve over the next 2 years or so we have before we'll be serious about making a deep playoff run.
Fair enough. If the team rewards your confidence I have no problem eating a hearty helping of crow.

I suppose I can at least be comforted by the fact that we're not Columbus, who added two very expensive pieces (the wrong ones, I might add) and now don't even have the cap room to fix things. Conversely, we're not the Islanders either, who went even worse than cheap and signed a few guys off of PTOs. Predictably, both teams are sitting in last place in their respective conferences.

As far as identity, sure I want balance. Vancouver proved last season you can be the highest scoring team in the league AND the most stingy defensively at the same time. I don't want a run-and-gun squad or a tight-checking, trap-happy team either. I'm being more specific about identity, and how they're nowhere close to being the team coaching and management has stressed they wanted to be. In fact they're father away from that ideal than they ever were, and that concerns me. It REALLY concerns me that they seemingly took a step back in their development in the same year they traded their first round pick.

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11-15-2011, 05:40 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Fair enough. If the team rewards your confidence I have no problem eating a hearty helping of crow.

I suppose I can at least be comforted by the fact that we're not Columbus, who added two very expensive pieces (the wrong ones, I might add) and now don't even have the cap room to fix things. Conversely, we're not the Islanders either, who went even worse than cheap and signed a few guys off of PTOs. Predictably, both teams are sitting in last place in their respective conferences.

As far as identity, sure I want balance. Vancouver proved last season you can be the highest scoring team in the league AND the most stingy defensively at the same time. I don't want a run-and-gun squad or a tight-checking, trap-happy team either. I'm being more specific about identity, and how they're nowhere close to being the team coaching and management has stressed they wanted to be. In fact they're father away from that ideal than they ever were, and that concerns me. It REALLY concerns me that they seemingly took a step back in their development in the same year they traded their first round pick.
It's a long season and the defense looks better-er than the offense looks worse. *shrug*

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11-15-2011, 09:11 PM
  #142
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If Sacco isn't replaced before Colorado's next game, then I'll have lost all faith in management. How bad do things need to get before they're convinced Sacco isn't the right man for the job?

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11-15-2011, 09:32 PM
  #143
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If Sacco isn't replaced before Colorado's next game, then I'll have lost all faith in management. How bad do things need to get before they're convinced Sacco isn't the right man for the job?
Going to be hard to find a viable replacement when they play again on Thursday and Friday

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11-15-2011, 10:11 PM
  #144
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Let's just say that I believe that you are significantly over-rating Stewart because of his potential while ignoring his shortcomings and inconsistency and under-rating EJ because of his inconsistency while ignoring his potential. Top 10 wingers in the NHL score more than 28 goals a year, just like top tier #1 Dmen don't make the mistakes EJ makes.

Additionally you seem to think this is a deal were we'll be able to determine that one team clearly won in less than 3 years, which I find asinine. Personally I think both teams won that trade, the Blues added a good young PMD, a super streaky but super talented winger and a 2nd round pick while losing their first rounder, a big minute Dman that they had a replacement for and a good PKer, so they didn't open any holes in their organization while stocking up in some areas they weren't as deep. We added a big minute Dman who's still streaky but is even more superbly gifted than MBP, a top 11 pick that became another big strong Dman who can really skate and solid bottom 6er while giving up a PMD who we had replacements for, a 2nd round pick and a 28 goal scorer.

I'd definitely do this trade again, I'd do this trade 8 times out of 10. But how good of an idea that turns out to be won't be clear for years until we see these guys actually hit their primes. If EJ follows the Chara or Pronger career path, Siemens turns into a left handed Seabrook while Shatty plateau's due to his size and Stewie's inconsistency never gets better, then we would win this trade by a landslide regardless of what happens this season or even next.

As for our future being more promising a few seasons ago I disagree immensely. We had a career backup goalie nearing 30 and no Dman who could actually play top 4 minutes without being a liability in his own zone. Our young core is much more balanced now with Varly, EJ, Dutchy, Staz, Radar, Lando, Quincey, Jones and all of the kids who haven't made the NHL yet, give them a few years to grow out of their inconsistencies and this is a core that can win cups in their prime. Which IMO is a GM's job.
I agree we have very different views of the avs, both now and in the past. We probably will just have to agree to disagree. Nonetheless,

People always give the "lets wait 5 years and see who won the trade" argument, and I'm a little sick of it. I'm not gonna have this argument with you in five years, so I really only care who won the trade right now, and I believe in my heart that our team would be doing a lot better if we still had Stewart and Shatty. Stewart scored 28 goals in 62 games. He's a 30+ goal scorer, 70pt player for all intents and purposes. There might not have been any 1st overall picks available on the market, but there were other young talented d men, and there were many free agents who could have helped to solidify our d-line. So i propose that we would be better off, both now and in the future, if we had kept Stewart and Shatty and gone after a decent D man in free agency or by other avenues. Its great that we have Elliott, Barrie and Siemens in the system, but none of them are contributing to the team right now the way that Shattenkirk could. I live in Toronto and I've watched prospect after prospect develop and then be traded away only to become hugely successful in another market. Believe me, if you want to succeed in the NHL, hold on to your home-grown talent and acquire young talented assets by trading your older over-rated veterans and making shrewd signings. I'm sorry, but McClement has almost no value, there are 3rd liners who can kill penalties floating around everywhere.

EJ will never be Chara. NEVER.

IF siemens becomes a left-handed Seabrook? thats a very big IF....

I've never felt that Stewart was very inconsistent. He's 24 and has a 50 and 60 pt season already. His shooting % has always been above 10... which is good for nhlers... and last year it was 22% with the Blues, which is characteristic of sniper. Besides his rookie year, he has always been just under a point/game. If you mean streakiness instead of inconsistency... i don't know if thats really a very good criticism of a player. Kessel was called streaky and inconsistent his whole career, but even when he was putting up 60pts a year he was a great player. Even if Stewart remains a 60-70 pt player for the rest of his career, and inconsistent, I would still consider this trade a loss. Erik Johnson is not even a superstar or an all-star. he's not even a star player.

Also, if you think we won the Wolski trade, please reconsider. Like it or not, Wolski had value, and we got almost nothing in return. I know you think Wolski is lazy, and that he has under performed in PHX and NYR, but he is a shootout specialist which alone has a large value to teams and he is a first round draft pick who has more than a couple 50pt seasons under his belt. That is worth more than 15 games and 20 pts from a concussion victim. He was also an OHL player of the year and he has several other accolades... it was a loss.

Whether or not you consider any of these individual trades losses or wins, the over-all record of Sherman should tell you that someone else, almost anyone else, could be doing much better with this team.

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11-15-2011, 10:21 PM
  #145
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Going to be hard to find a viable replacement when they play again on Thursday and Friday
Hopefully they've already been looking for a replacement and can simply make the switch...

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11-17-2011, 11:37 PM
  #146
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The Avs didn't really sport a ton of talent up front, but post-lockout were usually one of the highest scoring teams in the league. They did this because they had a defense that would join the rush almost all the time and contribute. Unfortunately having a mobile D like that also left them with a D that couldn't hold its own in the defensive zone.

While Sherman has tried to shore up that particular weakness, he's also taken away the one thing our defense was doing WELL. Again, the Liles trade makes absolutely no sense looking at how inept this team is offensively.

I don't mind that Sherm brought in some bigger bodies, but now we have a slower, less offensively capable defense and an offense that might actually have even more holes in it than before. And now it's glaring because the defensemen can't compensate.

And frankly, they're not that much better defensively after all Sherman's moves...

This isn't all on the coach. This is a BAD team, on paper and on the ice. Are they quite as bad as their current play suggests? No. But they're not anywhere close to playoff-caliber. And frankly I expect a team to be vying for the playoffs if they're bold enough to give away their first round pick.

This is why I want Sherman gone. He's taken away what made the Avs successful during these rebuilding years and not done an adequate job addressing their many weaknesses.

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11-18-2011, 12:06 AM
  #147
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Agreed on all counts. And it seems they're still trying to play a similar transition system, only now they don't have the personnel for it. With this roster we need to playing a much more conservative game a la Phoenix and Nashville.

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11-18-2011, 12:09 AM
  #148
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Agreed on all counts. And it seems they're still trying to play a similar transition system, only now they don't have the personnel for it. With this roster we need to playing a much more conservative game a la Phoenix and Nashville.
Agreed. Much as I don't want to see the Avs play that type of hockey, it's what the current roster must do to even have a hope of succeeding.

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11-21-2011, 03:04 AM
  #149
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I don't always agree with Dave Krieger, but he's spot-on here:

http://www.denverpost.com/krieger/ci...mpaign=twitter

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11-21-2011, 08:46 AM
  #150
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I think the article is tendentious. Lacroix had a lot of swings and misses too. The Roy trade, while it was extremely fortunate for Avs, isn't indicative of his reign. There were plenty of trades where we gave up more than we should, but since we had a wealth of riches people didn't care until after Lacroix was gone.

Secondly, pretty much all of the Sherman trades are trades that won't be able to be evaluated for years. They involve very young players and draft picks. Jumping on Varlamov now is a gimmie. I'm sure the tune will change when Varlamovs play does.

That the organization could use new blood from the outside in the front office and among the coaches I agree with. The only tie to the championship era that's worth hanging on to is Sakic.

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