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Old
11-12-2011, 11:16 AM
  #1
HCH
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Crazy stats

Montreal has three defensemen in the top 23 when it comes to blocked shots. The group includes Gorges, Gill and Diaz. In that regard, they are providing Price with a lot of support.

As for hits, we have one defenseman in the top 83 and that is Emelin who is tied for 52nd. After that it is Gill and Subban tied in 84th place. When Emelin is out of the line-up our defense looks like a pretty passive group.

Interestingly, if you projected Emelin's hits over the full 15 games that the Habs have played, he would rank #3 in the league for hits by a defenseman but would still be only #6 on the team when it comes to blocked shots.

Also interesting is that Ryan O'Byrne's stats would lead the Habs by a wide margin in hits but would place him closer to #6 in blocked shots on the team. He would actually be ahead of Spacek but Spatch has only played 10 games.

I don't know what kind of conclusions, if any, can be drawn from the hits/blocked shots stats. Maybe the guys that play the body rather than the puck take themselves out of position to block a shot. Or maybe the guys that are good at blocking shots hesitate to make a hit, preferring to block the potential shot than to take the man.

And perhaps, Martin's philosophy stresses highly structured positonal play on defense as well as offense. That philosophy would not be in keeping with players who take a chance to make a hit and maybe take themselves out of position. Under that kind of philosophy, players like O'Byrne and Emelin won't thrive.

I'm probably just grasping at straws here, but I thought it was an interesting anomaly.

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11-12-2011, 11:22 AM
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I've noticed Subban isn't going for as many hits this year as last year as well, so your theory probably has some truth to it.

It's pretty obvious that JM's system is entirely based on our players abilities to stay in position and those that don't get punished. While it's not bad to stay in position, if you have the chance to crush a player on the boards our defense should be able to do so without being chastised. Countless times I see Subban have a guy lined up perfectly to seriously inflict pain and instead he just continues to back up, that's not Subban, that's Jacques Martin.

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11-12-2011, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HCH View Post
Montreal has three defensemen in the top 23 when it comes to blocked shots. The group includes Gorges, Gill and Diaz. In that regard, they are providing Price with a lot of support.

As for hits, we have one defenseman in the top 83 and that is Emelin who is tied for 52nd. After that it is Gill and Subban tied in 84th place. When Emelin is out of the line-up our defense looks like a pretty passive group.

Interestingly, if you projected Emelin's hits over the full 15 games that the Habs have played, he would rank #3 in the league for hits by a defenseman but would still be only #6 on the team when it comes to blocked shots.

Also interesting is that Ryan O'Byrne's stats would lead the Habs by a wide margin in hits but would place him closer to #6 in blocked shots on the team. He would actually be ahead of Spacek but Spatch has only played 10 games.

I don't know what kind of conclusions, if any, can be drawn from the hits/blocked shots stats. Maybe the guys that play the body rather than the puck take themselves out of position to block a shot. Or maybe the guys that are good at blocking shots hesitate to make a hit, preferring to block the potential shot than to take the man.

And perhaps, Martin's philosophy stresses highly structured positonal play on defense as well as offense. That philosophy would not be in keeping with players who take a chance to make a hit and maybe take themselves out of position. Under that kind of philosophy, players like O'Byrne and Emelin won't thrive.
I'm probably just grasping at straws here, but I thought it was an interesting anomaly.
Couldn't agree more. The habs are all about position playing. That's why Martin doesn't like the physical play because when an aggresive player goes for the hit, he ends up out of the play or out of position. That's why Emelin is in the press box instead of someone else. That's why Blunden sometimes plays less than one minute per game, etc.

It's not hat our defencemen love to block shots, but Martin stresses positioning and they end up in good position to block shots so they do it anyways.

As for offense, that's why Martin uses a puck possesion type of play instead of a dump and chase which is more messy and disorganized. With puck possesion, you can set up a more precise strategy and position, dump and chase is more aggresive and, although there is some positioning involed, relies more on the players creating openings for themselves than the system doing it.

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11-12-2011, 11:30 AM
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Hense Blunden's lack of ice time since the big hit. JM out.

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11-12-2011, 11:31 AM
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Interesting stats, I agree must be a lot to do with coaching strategies, I also think it must have something to do with the time of year. I mean Blocked shots and hits are important all season but I bet these stats really sky rocket come last 20-30 games of the season including the post season. Also not to mention every time one of our players are involed in any sort of play that may inflict pain, our guy goes down for 10 games.

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11-12-2011, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs13 View Post
Hense Blunden's lack of ice time since the big hit. JM out.
Yeah the big hit that completely turned the game in the favour of the Rangers.


JM doesn't dislike physical play nor does he dislike big hits. (another one of those perpetuate JM myths). I've heard him countless times talk about finishing your checks.

But he, nor do any other coaches in the NHL want players to get out of position to go for the big hit and rightly so. The best physical defencemen in the NHL know how to deliver big hits but not at the expense of getting out of position and creating a scoring chance against in the process. Emelin will figure this out with time.

OP, good post, interesting stuff in there.

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11-12-2011, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Yeah the big hit that completely turned the game in the favour of the Rangers.
JM doesn't dislike physical play nor does he dislike big hits. (another one of those perpetuate JM myths). I've heard him countless times talk about finishing your checks.

But he, nor do any other coaches in the NHL want players to get out of position to go for the big hit and rightly so.

OP, good post, interesting stuff in there.
Except the big hit was completely legal within the rules of the NHL and it only changed the momentum of the game based on the fact the refs completely screwed up the calls on that play, admitted by Kerry Fraser as well.

So this is not a valid arguement in any sense as to why Blunden should sit, if you want to critique his play away from that hit then it would be a different story.

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11-12-2011, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Yeah the big hit that completely turned the game in the favour of the Rangers.


JM doesn't dislike physical play nor does he dislike big hits. (another one of those perpetuate JM myths). I've heard him countless times talk about finishing your checks.

But he, nor do any other coaches in the NHL want players to get out of position to go for the big hit and rightly so. The best physical defencemen in the NHL know how to deliver big hits but not at the expense of getting out of position and creating a scoring chance against in the process. Emelin will figure this out with time.

OP, good post, interesting stuff in there.
Yes and no. If one player goes for a big hit and gets out of the play, the team will still be fine if another player takes the hitter's position and the hitter takes up the position of the guy filling in for him. Then, they could switch around and be back to normal. Many teams do that, but Martin doesn't tell his players to do that, that's why they look disorganized sometimes in the defensive zone because they are trying to do too much. They don't want to caught out of position, but they feel that they nee to cover the immediate threat. If Martin were to practice what I just said, then they would have more confidence in each other and they would go for those big plays that could turn the momentum around.

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11-12-2011, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Yeah the big hit that completely turned the game in the favour of the Rangers.


JM doesn't dislike physical play nor does he dislike big hits. (another one of those perpetuate JM myths). I've heard him countless times talk about finishing your checks.

But he, nor do any other coaches in the NHL want players to get out of position to go for the big hit and rightly so. The best physical defencemen in the NHL know how to deliver big hits but not at the expense of getting out of position and creating a scoring chance against in the process. Emelin will figure this out with time.

OP, good post, interesting stuff in there.
Are you kidding me? A legal hit that would have jump started any team. We NEED more physical play.

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11-12-2011, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
Except the big hit was completely legal within the rules of the NHL and it only changed the momentum of the game based on the fact the refs completely screwed up the calls on that play, admitted by Kerry Fraser as well.
I think 'completely legal' is a slight exageration. Blunden shouldn't have been taking part in the play on the ice at that time.

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11-12-2011, 12:30 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habtacular View Post
I think 'completely legal' is a slight exageration. Blunden shouldn't have been taking part in the play on the ice at that time.
The context of of the HIT is legal, it was a poor line change.

The physicality element of the argument is invalid, that's my point.

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11-12-2011, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
I've noticed Subban isn't going for as many hits this year as last year as well, so your theory probably has some truth to it.

It's pretty obvious that JM's system is entirely based on our players abilities to stay in position and those that don't get punished. While it's not bad to stay in position, if you have the chance to crush a player on the boards our defense should be able to do so without being chastised. Countless times I see Subban have a guy lined up perfectly to seriously inflict pain and instead he just continues to back up, that's not Subban, that's Jacques Martin.
That is the stupidity of the system, if you never hit opposing players then they are never scared to enter the zone. This may actually increase the amount of shots that need to be blocked. JM would probably of traded Larry Robinson for being to aggressive.

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11-12-2011, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
The context of of the HIT is legal, it was a poor line change.

The physicality element of the argument is invalid, that's my point.
I agree. And why does it have to be Blunden specifically that should not have been taking part. Are the players supposed to stand around and make sure the line change has been completed before become involved in the play?

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11-12-2011, 12:45 PM
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Watsatheo
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One theory is the less you hit an opponent, the less motivated they are to hit back.

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11-12-2011, 12:50 PM
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Eric Cole is 5th in the NHL in hits. Moen is 61st, Emelin is 144th but he has only played 8 games.

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11-12-2011, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
Except the big hit was completely legal within the rules of the NHL and it only changed the momentum of the game based on the fact the refs completely screwed up the calls on that play, admitted by Kerry Fraser as well.

So this is not a valid arguement in any sense as to why Blunden should sit, if you want to critique his play away from that hit then it would be a different story.
The hit was legal but he jumped on the ice early to make it. And Kerry Fraser never denied this. His issue was with the resulting 5 on 3 and that's something I agree with. Should never have been a 5 on 3 for the Rangers there. But if Blunden doesn't jump on early to make his big hit nothing happens and the Habs were off to a good start in that game.

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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Are you kidding me? A legal hit that would have jump started any team. We NEED more physical play.
Read the rest of my post I specifically said we need physical play. JM always talks about finishing hits. He doesn't dislike hitting.

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Originally Posted by Habtacular View Post
I think 'completely legal' is a slight exageration. Blunden shouldn't have been taking part in the play on the ice at that time.
Exactly. The hit itself was a legal hit. Trouble is he was the 6th man on the ice.

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11-12-2011, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
I agree. And why does it have to be Blunden specifically that should not have been taking part. Are the players supposed to stand around and make sure the line change has been completed before become involved in the play?
Umm, yes?

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If in the course of making a substitution, either the player entering the game or the player retiring from the ice surface plays the puck with his stick, skates or hands or who checks or makes any physical contact with an opposing player while either the player entering the game or the retiring player is actually on the ice, then the infraction of “too many men on the ice” will be called.

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11-12-2011, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Eric Cole is 5th in the NHL in hits. Moen is 61st, Emelin is 144th but he has only played 8 games.
It's nice to have some bigger bodies like Cole, Moen, Kostitsyn and Pacioretty on our forward lines. Eller and Nokelainen help, too. If we could add one more physical center, we could no longer be considered small up front.

Defense is another matter. I wouldn't mind seeing Montreal try to pry a guy like Marc Methot out of Columbus. He is a big body who throws some weight around but he is never going to be any kind of an offensive threat. He might be a good complement to a Weber/Diaz type of defenseman.

If the coaching staff had enough patience to allow Emelin to develop, then we would have two physical defenseman to complement some of our offensive talent.

Combos of Gorges/Markov, Emelin/Subban, Methot/Weber(or Diaz) would give the team a far different look than it has today.

My strategy would be to keep Spacek around until we know one way or another if Markov can return. And even if Markov does return, I would keep Spacek to rotate into the lineup and act as mentor. He would be our flex player. Campoli would be gone. Diaz would be kept as the flex player until/if Markov returns.

Sorry Hal. Opportunities must be given to younger players if this team is ever going to move forward. His skill set doesn't match my vision of what a defense should look like.

I guess I am just tired of the passive nature of this team. We are passive on the forecheck, passive on defense and passive behind the bench. Other than a freak playoff run, the team has been mired in mediocrity with this approach.

If results are going to be mediocre, at least we could be involved in some exciting games instead of this buttoned-down approach.

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11-12-2011, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
The context of of the HIT is legal, it was a poor line change.

The physicality element of the argument is invalid, that's my point.
So you're agreeing that Blunden seeing less ice time is not because he made a big hit but because he made a dumb decision in order to make the big hit?

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11-12-2011, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Habtacular View Post
So you're agreeing that Blunden seeing less ice time is not because he made a big hit but because he made a dumb decision in order to make the big hit?
I think he is saying that Martin is penalizing him. Maybe it's Martin that made the dumb decision and not Blunden. It's like the coach sent a message, if you hit someone you will sit on the bench, especially if you are one of those players who is on the bubble.

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11-12-2011, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
I think he is saying that Martin is penalizing him. Maybe it's Martin that made the dumb decision and not Blunden. It's like the coach sent a message, if you hit someone you will sit on the bench, especially if you are one of those players who is on the bubble.
What do you mean it's Martin that made the decision and not Blunden?

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11-12-2011, 01:57 PM
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What do you mean it's Martin that made the decision and not Blunden?
I meant the decision to put Blunden on the bench. Sorry, I might not have made that clear.

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11-12-2011, 02:08 PM
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I meant the decision to put Blunden on the bench. Sorry, I might not have made that clear.
Oh ok. I thought you mean the decision to jump on the ice early.

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11-12-2011, 02:12 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
One theory is the less you hit an opponent, the less motivated they are to hit back.
That's doubtful. Hockey is a physical game and hitting gives you an advantage if you don't draw a penalty. If you avoid contact the opponent might perceive you to be timid and is more inclined to hit you.

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