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Old
11-13-2011, 07:39 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Zuccarello Awesome View Post
It's not that cut and dry. By your logic, you'd sign Parise over Doughty just because LW is more of a weakness than defense. Like I said, and this is just my opinion: Suter makes more of an impact on a shift by shift basis than does Parise. Suter makes us a better team than Parise does. If you disagree, that's fine, but don't quote me and then dismiss the argument.

And I don't understand the argument that Suter "only" eats up cap space. Is Parise exempt from the salary cap? He's just as much of a risk and his contract prevents us from filling another spot just as much. What happens if a D gets injured and all of a sudden that becomes a glaring need? Does parise's cap hit not count?

If you think Parise is a better target than Suter that's fine, but the arguments you've given don't really hold any water.
You've failed to read my points about us having players that can be just as good or better than Suter. Why do we need to pay $5M for Suter when one of our younger guys can do the same thing at a cheaper price?

We don't have anyone that can really do what Parise can. People can argue that Kreider can, but I have yet to see Kreider do what Parise can.

Parise is one of the best forwards in the NHL. Easily Top 10 or Top 20. Suter is not a Top 10 or 20 defenseman in the NHL. Suter is good, but he prevents us from spending money on the good top line LW we need.

If Erixon and McDonagh can get the job done at a cheaper price and we can add Parise, that's money used the right way.

If we have $5M tied up with Suter, where does the rest of the money go? Can you really get a top line LW when you have $5M tied up in 1 defender?

You can argue that Suter can make one of our defenseman expendable, but McDonagh/Erixon's cap hit does not equal a top line LW's cap hit.

How you think this team needs Suter more than Parise is beyond me. The team lacks offense, not defense. We have Staal, Girardi, Sauer, McDonagh, Del Zotto, Erixon and McIlrath. Why do we need another defender? All of the defenseman we have are very good. Why do we need to create a logjam with left handed defenseman?

Parise adds the offense we need, Suter just adds to our defense.

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11-13-2011, 08:05 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Zuccarello Awesome View Post
You may be right, but just because he's their priority doesn't mean HE will choose to sign with a team that to most people does not look like they're anywhere close to being a contender. They're like the rangers 2-3 years ago. They have zero top end forwards. Mike Fisher is their best offensive player. That's bad. I think there's a very good chance Suter decides he wants to hit the FA market. Time will tell.
Yeah, you really don't know what you're talking about. For one, if they spend to the cap like they are currently indicating they will, top end forwards will come in time. Hornqvist, Kostitsyn, Wilson, Erat, and Smith are all better offensive players than Fisher too. Legwand is so far this year, too. Don't mistake a lack of high end names for a lack of talent.

Ill go as far as to say that Suter will DEFINITELY resign. I don't make predictions of these kinds of things very often and will gladly eat a big plate of crow if he doesnt.

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11-13-2011, 08:16 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Jefferek Stepaninner View Post
You've failed to read my points about us having players that can be just as good or better than Suter. Why do we need to pay $5M for Suter when one of our younger guys can do the same thing at a cheaper price?

We don't have anyone that can really do what Parise can. People can argue that Kreider can, but I have yet to see Kreider do what Parise can.

Parise is one of the best forwards in the NHL. Easily Top 10 or Top 20. Suter is not a Top 10 or 20 defenseman in the NHL. Suter is good, but he prevents us from spending money on the good top line LW we need.

If Erixon and McDonagh can get the job done at a cheaper price and we can add Parise, that's money used the right way.

If we have $5M tied up with Suter, where does the rest of the money go? Can you really get a top line LW when you have $5M tied up in 1 defender?

You can argue that Suter can make one of our defenseman expendable, but McDonagh/Erixon's cap hit does not equal a top line LW's cap hit.

How you think this team needs Suter more than Parise is beyond me. The team lacks offense, not defense. We have Staal, Girardi, Sauer, McDonagh, Del Zotto, Erixon and McIlrath. Why do we need another defender? All of the defenseman we have are very good. Why do we need to create a logjam with left handed defenseman?

Parise adds the offense we need, Suter just adds to our defense.
This post reeks of denial. You say we have defenseman who can do what Suter does but you haven't seen Kreider do what Parise can. Please tell me which of our defensemen have proved they can do what Suter can. I don't think you watch many Nashville games. Suter is an absolute #1 dman in every sense of the word.

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11-13-2011, 08:19 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Yeah, you really don't know what you're talking about. For one, if they spend to the cap like they are currently indicating they will, top end forwards will come in time. Hornqvist, Kostitsyn, Wilson, Erat, and Smith are all better offensive players than Fisher too. Legwand is so far this year, too. Don't mistake a lack of high end names for a lack of talent.

Ill go as far as to say that Suter will DEFINITELY resign. I don't make predictions of these kinds of things very often and will gladly eat a big plate of crow if he doesnt.
I don't know what Im talking about? I said they have no top end offensive players. You then confirmed just that by saying "if they keep spending to the cap, those players will come in time." Contradict yourself much? None of the players you mentioned are head and shoulders above Fisher. Some of them are arguable, but some just are not and you're reaching. My guess is you don't watch many Nashville games either. Stick to posting about the rangers, because you're usually pretty knowledgeable but this post just makes you look silly.

You started your post with a contradiction, so why not end it with one? "Suter will DEFINITELY re-sign, BUT IF HE DOESN'T...." Thanks for the laugh.

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11-13-2011, 08:22 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Zuccarello Awesome View Post
This post reeks of denial. You say we have defenseman who can do what Suter does but you haven't seen Kreider do what Parise can. Please tell me which of our defensemen have proved they can do what Suter can. I don't think you watch many Nashville games. Suter is an absolute #1 dman in every sense of the word.
Staal, Girardi and McDonagh to an extent have all shown flashes of being a #1 defenseman. Staal is one, Girardi is playing like a Norris caliber defenseman right now, and McDonagh, 45 games into his NHL career, is playing like a top pairing defenseman, so I'd say there's room for improvement. Michael Sauer and Del Zotto have done very well as a middle pair, and Erixon and McIlrath both have potential to be very very good NHL defenseman, with Erixon knocking on the door.

This team does not need another defenseman. You don't waste draft picks on players and trade them away once they finally start panning out. That's what they would have to do if they pick up a player like Suter. Sure, a 3rd pairing guy who can hold down the fort until Staal is back and/or Erixon/Valentenko/McIlrath are ready, but a top guy just pushes the young guys out of the equation after we have spent years developing them. That money would be much better spent on a forward.

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11-13-2011, 08:27 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Zuccarello Awesome View Post
I don't know what Im talking about? I said they have no top end offensive players. You then confirmed just that by saying "if they keep spending to the cap, those players will come in time." Contradict yourself much? None of the players you mentioned are head and shoulders above Fisher. Some of them are arguable, but some just are not and you're reaching. My guess is you don't watch many Nashville games either. Stick to posting about the rangers, because you're usually pretty knowledgeable but this post just makes you look silly.

You started your post with a contradiction, so why not end it with one? "Suter will DEFINITELY re-sign, BUT IF HE DOESN'T...." Thanks for the laugh.


I lived in Nashville for the last 2 years and have watched more of their games in person than you've probably watched on TV. I never claimed they had top offensive players. I wasn't specific enough when I was saying that you don't know what you're talking about. What I was referring to there was "don't look anywhere close to a contender". The other thing I was referring to was your claim that there aren't better offensive players than Fisher. And yes, Hornqvist is head and shoulders above Fisher offensively. Wilson and Smith are showing that as well so far. I follow the Preds pretty closely still, even though I will never follow them as closely as the Rangers.

And I can't be aware that the possibility exists for me to be wrong about Suter? I called it a prediction, not a prophecy.

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11-13-2011, 08:30 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by ColonialsHockey10 View Post
Staal, Girardi and McDonagh to an extent have all shown flashes of being a #1 defenseman. Staal is one, Girardi is playing like a Norris caliber defenseman right now, and McDonagh, 45 games into his NHL career, is playing like a top pairing defenseman, so I'd say there's room for improvement. Michael Sauer and Del Zotto have done very well as a middle pair, and Erixon and McIlrath both have potential to be very very good NHL defenseman, with Erixon knocking on the door.

This team does not need another defenseman. You don't waste draft picks on players and trade them away once they finally start panning out. That's what they would have to do if they pick up a player like Suter. Sure, a 3rd pairing guy who can hold down the fort until Staal is back and/or Erixon/Valentenko/McIlrath are ready, but a top guy just pushes the young guys out of the equation after we have spent years developing them. That money would be much better spent on a forward.
Suter, Staal, Girardi, McDonagh, Sauer, and one of DZ / Erixon / McIlrath is a great top 6. We're not forcing anyone out via trade. It's a GOOD thing to have competition. It's a good thing to be able to deal from a position of strength when needed. It's a good thing to not have to pencil guys into the lineup out of necessity because you have enough depth to let the players win their spots.

It's your OPINION that the money would be better spent on a forward. That's fine. For me it depends on the forward. I don't think Parise is the savior some of you think he is, and there's no guarantee he makes it to FA either. If it were Suter vs Ovechkin, I'd agree. I just happen to think Suter is more valuable to a team trying to build a contender than Parise. Not by leaps and bounds, but that's just how I feel. Especially when I consider that I think Parise on the open market commands about 1-2 million more than Suter would.

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11-13-2011, 08:32 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Zuccarello Awesome View Post
This post reeks of denial. You say we have defenseman who can do what Suter does but you haven't seen Kreider do what Parise can. Please tell me which of our defensemen have proved they can do what Suter can. I don't think you watch many Nashville games. Suter is an absolute #1 dman in every sense of the word.
How does it reek of denial? McDonagh has actually played in the NHL and is showing that he has butt loads of potential. Let's not forget that McDonagh is only in his second year and is doing exceptionally well. What's to say that with his great effort that he won't amount to be better than Suter?

What has Kreider proven that he is as good or better than Pairse? Nothing. Kreider hasn't played a single game at the NHL level and lacks the all around skill that Parise has. Parise was almost 2xPPG in his second WJC, Kreider was only a PPG. Parise produced immediately in the NCAA whereas Kreider has been okay. Look at high school stats, Parise had 340 point in 125 high school games, Kreider had just 97 points in 50 games. If Kreider played the same amount of games, he still would only have produced 243 points.

You said Kreider could be our Parise, but what he done to constitute that? McDonagh has at least proven himself at the NHL level. McDonagh is on pace for 37 points this season, 13 more points than Suter in his second season.

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11-13-2011, 08:33 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I lived in Nashville for the last 2 years and have watched more of their games in person than you've probably watched on TV. I never claimed they had top offensive players. I wasn't specific enough when I was saying that you don't know what you're talking about. What I was referring to there was "don't look anywhere close to a contender". The other thing I was referring to was your claim that there aren't better offensive players than Fisher. And yes, Hornqvist is head and shoulders above Fisher offensively. Wilson and Smith are showing that as well so far. I follow the Preds pretty closely still, even though I will never follow them as closely as the Rangers.

And I can't be aware that the possibility exists for me to be wrong about Suter? I called it a prediction, not a prophecy.
Then I strongly suggest you look up the definition of the word, "definitely."

And come on man. You're basing some of your argument on the fact that through 15 games this season a few young players have looked better than Fisher. I guess Marty Biron is better than Ryan Miller and Carey Price.

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11-13-2011, 08:36 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Jefferek Stepaninner View Post
How does it reek of denial? McDonagh has actually played in the NHL and is showing that he has butt loads of potential. Let's not forget that McDonagh is only in his second year and is doing exceptionally well. What's to say that with his great effort that he won't amount to be better than Suter?

What has Kreider proven that he is as good or better than Pairse? Nothing. Kreider hasn't played a single game at the NHL level and lacks the all around skill that Parise has. Parise was almost 2xPPG in his second WJC, Kreider was only a PPG. Parise produced immediately in the NCAA whereas Kreider has been okay. Look at high school stats, Parise had 340 point in 125 high school games, Kreider had just 97 points in 50 games. If Kreider played the same amount of games, he still would only have produced 243 points.

You said Kreider could be our Parise, but what he done to constitute that? McDonagh has at least proven himself at the NHL level. McDonagh is on pace for 37 points this season, 13 more points than Suter in his second season.
You totally missed the point. It wasn't that Kreider has proven himself to be a Parise. It was that none of our D have proven to be as good as Ryan Suter. 43 games doesn't make a NHL career. Suter has been a legit #1 dman for years and puts up great offensive numbers while playing against the best players in the Western conference for 27 minutes a night.

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11-13-2011, 08:38 PM
  #61
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No, I'm saying that based on having SEEN Hornqvist and Wilson. Wilson is only in his 2nd full year in the league, but to those of us who follow the Preds, we know how skilled he is and this comes as no surprise.

And I didn't realize that everything a person says has to be prefaced by "in my opinion". So for your sake, friend, I will say this: IN MY OPINION, Suter will definitely resign in Nashville.

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11-13-2011, 08:42 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Zuccarello Awesome View Post
You totally missed the point. It wasn't that Kreider has proven himself to be a Parise. It was that none of our D have proven to be as good as Ryan Suter. 43 games doesn't make a NHL career. Suter has been a legit #1 dman for years and puts up great offensive numbers while playing against the best players in the Western conference for 27 minutes a night.
Yet why should we spend money on him when we can have players that can turn into a player like him? If Suter has been earning $3.5M for all these years, who's to say that we can't sign someone like McDonagh for a few years at a range of $2M-$3.5M and he becomes a Suter like player? What's the point of having of locking up a $5M Suter for a few years when in 2 or so years, we can have a player like him for cheaper? I'm not calling Suter a bad player, I'm just saying that if McDonagh stays on his path, he will become as good or better than Suter and most likely at a cheaper price for a few years. Suter will want a long term option, If our defenseman surpass him in 2 or so years, I'm not paying $5M for him and especially for long term.

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11-13-2011, 09:12 PM
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Because Weber won't be a UFA.
With the contract they gave Rinne, one of those two will hit free agency.

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11-13-2011, 09:18 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Zuccarello Awesome View Post
Suter, Staal, Girardi, McDonagh, Sauer, and one of DZ / Erixon / McIlrath is a great top 6. We're not forcing anyone out via trade. It's a GOOD thing to have competition. It's a good thing to be able to deal from a position of strength when needed. It's a good thing to not have to pencil guys into the lineup out of necessity because you have enough depth to let the players win their spots.

It's your OPINION that the money would be better spent on a forward. That's fine. For me it depends on the forward. I don't think Parise is the savior some of you think he is, and there's no guarantee he makes it to FA either. If it were Suter vs Ovechkin, I'd agree. I just happen to think Suter is more valuable to a team trying to build a contender than Parise. Not by leaps and bounds, but that's just how I feel. Especially when I consider that I think Parise on the open market commands about 1-2 million more than Suter would.
And I would agree with you if we were building a team from scratch. But with the way this team has drafted and how it is built, Parise is a much more appropriate solution. Either of them would have me thrilled, but a team like Tampa, who is led by Victor freaking Hedman, could certainly use Suter more, while we could use Parise.

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11-13-2011, 09:21 PM
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You totally missed the point. It wasn't that Kreider has proven himself to be a Parise. It was that none of our D have proven to be as good as Ryan Suter. 43 games doesn't make a NHL career. Suter has been a legit #1 dman for years and puts up great offensive numbers while playing against the best players in the Western conference for 27 minutes a night.
i can understand your argument if the ranger defense was not as good as it is. if the defense was lacking then yes you choose defense over offense but with this teams defense you have to go for parise over suter.

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11-13-2011, 09:40 PM
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I don't see the Rangers adding another huge contract to the books by signing a premier UFA.... Our younger players (Stepan, McDonagh, Sauer, Anisimov, MDZ) are going to get new contracts over the coming years and that's going to eat away at a good chunk of cap space...

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11-13-2011, 09:42 PM
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I'd prefer not to trade McD, see Zubov, Sergei.

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11-13-2011, 10:02 PM
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am i in the chris kreider thread?

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11-13-2011, 10:23 PM
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am i in the chris kreider thread?

We are discussing Suter and Parise future here, because they don't have any without this club.

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11-13-2011, 10:58 PM
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Parise is the obvious UFA target. My only concern (and i'll let the cap hawks figure this out) is can we safely sign him without compromising resigning future RFAs? Also, we have to see how he performs this season. He had a pretty serious knee injury last season so it's not clear yet if he's totally recovered or if he's just another 60 pt 2nd liner now, instead of the elite 1st liner we all remember. It could be one of those injuries players never fully recover from. Haven't watched any Devils games this season so I couldn't say.

Kreider could be a 20-25 player in his rookie year. It could depend on who he plays with and how much ice time he gets. How is his 2-way play because that could get him sent down to Hartford by Torts? Anyways, it'll be clear that Kreider in his rookie year will not be able to provide what (a healthy) Zach Parise can. Even Parise and Toews didn't break the 70 pt barrier until his 4th year so it's probably unrealistic to expect Kreider to do so either. How many NCAA prospects roar out of the gates like top 5 CHL draftees?

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11-13-2011, 11:03 PM
  #71
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Wolski, Fedotenko, Christensen, Avery all potentially gone next season... There will be plenty of room for at least 1 prospect... Hopefully we can field a roster that features Prust/Boyle/Rupp on the 4th line so we can field a prototypical 3rd scoring line with the more skilled forwards...

I can see Feds back but other 3 are probably gone.

Plenty of room for Kreider. He'll probably go to A for half a season like McDonagh.

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11-14-2011, 12:15 AM
  #72
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No, I'm saying that based on having SEEN Hornqvist and Wilson. Wilson is only in his 2nd full year in the league, but to those of us who follow the Preds, we know how skilled he is and this comes as no surprise.

And I didn't realize that everything a person says has to be prefaced by "in my opinion". So for your sake, friend, I will say this: IN MY OPINION, Suter will definitely resign in Nashville.
You're still not getting it, lol. DEFINITELY means DEFINITELY.
Never mind.

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11-14-2011, 12:20 AM
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Yet why should we spend money on him when we can have players that can turn into a player like him? If Suter has been earning $3.5M for all these years, who's to say that we can't sign someone like McDonagh for a few years at a range of $2M-$3.5M and he becomes a Suter like player? What's the point of having of locking up a $5M Suter for a few years when in 2 or so years, we can have a player like him for cheaper? I'm not calling Suter a bad player, I'm just saying that if McDonagh stays on his path, he will become as good or better than Suter and most likely at a cheaper price for a few years. Suter will want a long term option, If our defenseman surpass him in 2 or so years, I'm not paying $5M for him and especially for long term.
I get your side of it and I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying. But $5 million for Suter is a serious DISCOUNT. If he hits UFA, he's going to get at least 6, and maybe as much as 7, 7.5 depending on if the cap goes up or down. Parise I think will get at least 6.5 and as much as 8. Id like to think he could be had for a reasonable 5.5 or 6 but UFA classes are so much thinner these days. There's usually only one or two guys at each position who are real top tier marquee free agents each offseason. Sometimes not even.

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11-14-2011, 12:51 AM
  #74
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Parise is the obvious UFA target. My only concern (and i'll let the cap hawks figure this out) is can we safely sign him without compromising resigning future RFAs?

Ok, so let's say if we sign Parise, we will then a year or two later have to trade away Dubinsky for prospects and picks. How's that bad?

First, we can win the Cup in the year or two he's still here.

Second, Parise is better than Dubinsky, so we are upgrading our NHL roster PLUS we would significantly improve our farm system. Dubi can easily bring back a very good prospect plus a first rounder.

So let's say we get Parise, first rounder and a good prospect instead of Dubinsky, and we get both Dubinsky and Parise for at least as a season or two. How is that worse than just keeping Dubi and passing on Parise?

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