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Old
11-13-2011, 04:36 PM
  #926
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Extend the Fat Man for 5 more years, he just needs time to figure it out. Plus there has to be a receivers coach somewhere to try as def cooridinator next year.

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11-13-2011, 04:37 PM
  #927
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I don't even get mad watching the games anymore because it's expected.
It's so bad it's hilarious. I was of the thought that Reid was safe this year even though they weren't making the playoffs, but with this loss and all the same mistakes over and over, I may have to rethink that stance.

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11-13-2011, 04:40 PM
  #928
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You are playing a high school calibre QB and you only have to do 1 thing, cover Fitzgerald, and they failed miserably

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11-13-2011, 04:41 PM
  #929
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Reid has to be held accountable publicly by Jeff Lurie or else they're going start legitimately losing the fan base.

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11-13-2011, 04:42 PM
  #930
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andy can go to PSU, he is good with qb's at least.

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11-13-2011, 04:45 PM
  #931
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andy can go to PSU, he is good with qb's at least.
Didn't you hear--they will hire Marty Mornhinweg... just to make sure they still get one decent recruit next year.

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11-13-2011, 05:19 PM
  #932
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Yeah, I don't think you have the full story.

When Sandusky retired, the university / athletic department would have been responsible for giving him access to university facilities, not Paterno. Thus the university pulled that access last week, not Paterno.

The AD knew at least as much about the '98 incident as Paterno (and perhaps more--that's one of many unanswered questions), so to suggest that Paterno is responsible for Sandusky still having access seems a bit off--unless you a link to back up that claim?
Come on. You think if Joe Pa told Sandusky to never return to campus, knowing what Joe Pa, the AD, and Prez knew he would have been allowed back? Like Joe Pa would have said to the AD or Prez "This guy is a *******, I don't want him on campus." And they would have been like, "Nope. He's allowed to stay." This was a collective failure by everyone involved, but Paterno certainly could have stepped up, even if he didn't want to go to the police, he could have kept him out and certainly didn't have to promote his football camps and send his players to help out at them. And the way I understand it in PSU, Joe Pa reported to God and that's it (until all this of course).

Quote:
EDIT: That's not to say that I don't think Paterno deserves blame in this--he does. There's just a lot of misinformation out there, and my principle concern is that the BoT and university has too much to gain by making Paterno the main scapegoat.

IMO, Paterno should have been put on admin. leave pending an investigation--in practice, he never would have coached again, but firing him (and not the others involved) seems a cheap, transparent ploy to shift the blame away from the university administration.
The thing is that the university had no choice. They had a choice to protect a coach or protect the school. They could have rolled the dice, so to speak, and backed Paterno hoping that things would come out to clear his name or they could have rolled the dice and covered the University. From a football standpoint, yes it was could be considered a lame move because maybe he didn't do anything wrong blah blah blah. But from a practical standpoint, this was the only decision.

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11-13-2011, 05:30 PM
  #933
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Holy **** the Eagles lost again. That's just embarrassing.

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11-13-2011, 05:46 PM
  #934
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Come on. You think if Joe Pa told Sandusky to never return to campus, knowing what Joe Pa, the AD, and Prez knew he would have been allowed back? Like Joe Pa would have said to the AD or Prez "This guy is a *******, I don't want him on campus." And they would have been like, "Nope. He's allowed to stay." This was a collective failure by everyone involved, but Paterno certainly could have stepped up, even if he didn't want to go to the police, he could have kept him out and certainly didn't have to promote his football camps and send his players to help out at them. And the way I understand it in PSU, Joe Pa reported to God and that's it (until all this of course).



The thing is that the university had no choice. They had a choice to protect a coach or protect the school. They could have rolled the dice, so to speak, and backed Paterno hoping that things would come out to clear his name or they could have rolled the dice and covered the University. From a football standpoint, yes it was could be considered a lame move because maybe he didn't do anything wrong blah blah blah. But from a practical standpoint, this was the only decision.

I'm not arguing that Sandusky shouldn't have been banned--but why blame Paterno instead of the AD? Whether Paterno tells the AD to do it or not, the decision wasn't his to make.

I agree that the university could not allow Paterno to coach / be carried off the field, etc. My problem with firing him is that 90 percent of the national media will check out of State College this weekend, and that Paterno ends up looking like he personally intervened to protect a monster. The BoT explicitly stated that they had no information other than that publicly available in the GJ report--and the state AG cleared Paterno of any wrongdoing.

Right now, we don't know whether Paterno ever followed up with the AD, and we don't know what, if anything, he was told came out of the investigation. Firing him makes him look guilty of a cover up, when its not clear at all that that's the case. What if Paterno did follow up--what if he asked Curley about the incident and Curley said it was under investigation? What if Curley said it was being reported to the state police?

That's my problem with firing him: there's too much no known, and the action implies some other facts exist that, as far as we know, do not. Like I said--put him on leave, keep him from coaching and thus creating the visual of a celebration, etc., but firing him just seems like a more to cover the administration and Board.

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11-13-2011, 06:24 PM
  #935
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I'm not arguing that Sandusky shouldn't have been banned--but why blame Paterno instead of the AD? Whether Paterno tells the AD to do it or not, the decision wasn't his to make.
They are all to blame. If Paterno didn't want him there, he wouldn't have been there. The AD is not going to overrule Paterno on anything, especially if the topic is whether or not to allow an alleged child pervert to use campus facilities and host football camps on campus, etc.

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I agree that the university could not allow Paterno to coach / be carried off the field, etc. My problem with firing him is that 90 percent of the national media will check out of State College this weekend, and that Paterno ends up looking like he personally intervened to protect a monster. The BoT explicitly stated that they had no information other than that publicly available in the GJ report--and the state AG cleared Paterno of any wrongdoing.
The information to the public is this: a reliable source (i.e. a coach on his staff) told him at least that a kid was in a shower inappropriately with Sandusky and at most that a kid was getting was getting *****. With either of those things being known to Joe Pa, his inaction should be enough to fire him. Even if he was telling the AD not to let him on campus and the AD shot him down, at that point, why not go to the police? I understand (though I don't agree with it) why he wouldn't go right to the cops, but to allow him to be around and to send your players to help out at his camps and to promote his camps and associate them with the school, is failure by everyone from top to bottom.

As far as being cleared, they didn't clear him of any wrongdoing. All they said was at this time they aren't investigating him. You think he just hired a well respected criminal defense attorney if he was cleared of wrongdoing?

Quote:
Right now, we don't know whether Paterno ever followed up with the AD, and we don't know what, if anything, he was told came out of the investigation. Firing him makes him look guilty of a cover up, when its not clear at all that that's the case. What if Paterno did follow up--what if he asked Curley about the incident and Curley said it was under investigation? What if Curley said it was being reported to the state police?
But we do know that those things didn't happen. If they happened, this wouldn't be the same issue. if the AD told Joe Pa that it was over and he was cleared or it was handed the police, Joe Pa wouldn't be saying things like I wish I could have done more, and he certainly wouldn't neglect to mention that he followed up and did do more. He said he met with the AD and Prez the next morning. That's it.

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That's my problem with firing him: there's too much no known, and the action implies some other facts exist that, as far as we know, do not. Like I said--put him on leave, keep him from coaching and thus creating the visual of a celebration, etc., but firing him just seems like a more to cover the administration and Board.
Well I guess we just disagree on this. Also, even if it was just a way of covering the board's ass or the University's ass, that is exactly what they should have done. This is a prestigious university. Trying to distance itself from everything related to this scandal is the best possible thing, even if it adversely affects Joe Pa or others on the staff. I know Penn State football is popular and it makes money for the school, but the University is more important. Even if it turns out Joe Pa did 100% everything right, wouldn't it be better for the University to have to apologize to Joe Pa and his fans for wrongfully firing him rather than apologize to the victims and the outraged public that they kept him on the payroll?

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11-13-2011, 07:08 PM
  #936
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They are all to blame. If Paterno didn't want him there, he wouldn't have been there. The AD is not going to overrule Paterno on anything, especially if the topic is whether or not to allow an alleged child pervert to use campus facilities and host football camps on campus, etc.



The information to the public is this: a reliable source (i.e. a coach on his staff) told him at least that a kid was in a shower inappropriately with Sandusky and at most that a kid was getting was getting *****. With either of those things being known to Joe Pa, his inaction should be enough to fire him. Even if he was telling the AD not to let him on campus and the AD shot him down, at that point, why not go to the police? I understand (though I don't agree with it) why he wouldn't go right to the cops, but to allow him to be around and to send your players to help out at his camps and to promote his camps and associate them with the school, is failure by everyone from top to bottom.

As far as being cleared, they didn't clear him of any wrongdoing. All they said was at this time they aren't investigating him. You think he just hired a well respected criminal defense attorney if he was cleared of wrongdoing?



But we do know that those things didn't happen. If they happened, this wouldn't be the same issue. if the AD told Joe Pa that it was over and he was cleared or it was handed the police, Joe Pa wouldn't be saying things like I wish I could have done more, and he certainly wouldn't neglect to mention that he followed up and did do more. He said he met with the AD and Prez the next morning. That's it.



Well I guess we just disagree on this. Also, even if it was just a way of covering the board's ass or the University's ass, that is exactly what they should have done. This is a prestigious university. Trying to distance itself from everything related to this scandal is the best possible thing, even if it adversely affects Joe Pa or others on the staff. I know Penn State football is popular and it makes money for the school, but the University is more important. Even if it turns out Joe Pa did 100% everything right, wouldn't it be better for the University to have to apologize to Joe Pa and his fans for wrongfully firing him rather than apologize to the victims and the outraged public that they kept him on the payroll?
I think we agree for the most part, actually.

To the extent we disagree, it really depends on how you interpret Paterno's call to Curley and the subsequent involvement of Curley and Schultz. If Paterno says "hey, the perv is at it again, we need to make this go away," then its obviously a major problem. If the call was "hey Tim, something might have happened yesterday, I don't know why MM didn't call the police, but you better call the head of a 256-officer police force and have him or the appropriate authorities look into this," it is something else entirely. One of the great disservices that ESPN et. al. have done here is to suggest that no one contact law enforcement. They did--the university police department is a certified law enforcement agency. The key question is what, if anything, was done after Schultz was notified.

I don't read much into Paterno hiring an attorney. Everyone knows a civil suit is coming, and given his political connects, Sollers might well be an old acquaintance from JoePa's involvement with the GOP. The BoT all but admitted that they made their decision based on PR rather than a potential criminal charge.

In the end, I agree that Paterno had to go in order for the university to move on, and I don't blame the BoT for the action they took. I think they could have done it differently, but I don't envy their position.

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11-13-2011, 08:18 PM
  #937
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I think we agree for the most part, actually.

To the extent we disagree, it really depends on how you interpret Paterno's call to Curley and the subsequent involvement of Curley and Schultz. If Paterno says "hey, the perv is at it again, we need to make this go away," then its obviously a major problem. If the call was "hey Tim, something might have happened yesterday, I don't know why MM didn't call the police, but you better call the head of a 256-officer police force and have him or the appropriate authorities look into this," it is something else entirely. One of the great disservices that ESPN et. al. have done here is to suggest that no one contact law enforcement. They did--the university police department is a certified law enforcement agency. The key question is what, if anything, was done after Schultz was notified.
Did they contact the Penn State Police though? I though that was what happened in 1998 when a kid's mother made a complaint and they closed the investigation or whatever (even though he apparently admitted to inappropriate behavior and said he wouldn't shower with kids again), then a few years later the shower **** thing happened and that's where the failure began. If they contacted the police after the McQueary ordeal, that is a different story, but I am pretty sure they didn't, otherwise this wouldn't be an issue. If they did this heat would be aimed at the police, not the university. If you tell the police and nothing happens, its out of your hands, but as far as I know the McQueary allegations were never followed up with any police contact, hence the outrage.

Quote:
I don't read much into Paterno hiring an attorney. Everyone knows a civil suit is coming, and given his political connects, Sollers might well be an old acquaintance from JoePa's involvement with the GOP. The BoT all but admitted that they made their decision based on PR rather than a potential criminal charge.

In the end, I agree that Paterno had to go in order for the university to move on, and I don't blame the BoT for the action they took. I think they could have done it differently, but I don't envy their position.
Yeah it was a definitely a PR move, but a move that had to be made.

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11-13-2011, 08:20 PM
  #938
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Having issues posting so sorry if this is a double post...

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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I think we agree for the most part, actually.

To the extent we disagree, it really depends on how you interpret Paterno's call to Curley and the subsequent involvement of Curley and Schultz. If Paterno says "hey, the perv is at it again, we need to make this go away," then its obviously a major problem. If the call was "hey Tim, something might have happened yesterday, I don't know why MM didn't call the police, but you better call the head of a 256-officer police force and have him or the appropriate authorities look into this," it is something else entirely. One of the great disservices that ESPN et. al. have done here is to suggest that no one contact law enforcement. They did--the university police department is a certified law enforcement agency. The key question is what, if anything, was done after Schultz was notified.
Did they contact the Penn State Police though? I though that was what happened in 1998 when a kid's mother made a complaint and they closed the investigation or whatever (even though he apparently admitted to inappropriate behavior and said he wouldn't shower with kids again), then a few years later the shower **** thing happened and that's where the failure began. If they contacted the police after the McQueary ordeal, that is a different story, but I am pretty sure they didn't, otherwise this wouldn't be an issue. If they did this heat would be aimed at the police, not the university. If you tell the police and nothing happens, its out of your hands, but as far as I know the McQueary allegations were never followed up with any police contact, hence the outrage.

Quote:
I don't read much into Paterno hiring an attorney. Everyone knows a civil suit is coming, and given his political connects, Sollers might well be an old acquaintance from JoePa's involvement with the GOP. The BoT all but admitted that they made their decision based on PR rather than a potential criminal charge.

In the end, I agree that Paterno had to go in order for the university to move on, and I don't blame the BoT for the action they took. I think they could have done it differently, but I don't envy their position.
Yeah it was a definitely a PR move, but a move that had to be made.

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11-13-2011, 08:21 PM
  #939
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Reid has to be held accountable publicly by Jeff Lurie or else they're going start legitimately losing the fan base.
There is a waiting list for seats so you know they have that $ in the bank. Like the Gov said tonight. Stop buying eagle gear. That is about the only form of protest there is. Reid has lost the team. The media leeches are insinuating that there is more than just one player being late for meetings. The team is in total disarray. I am not even going to mention the play of the QB and the coaching staff's lack of understanding how to cover the other team's best player. "It's over Johnny....over"

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11-13-2011, 09:31 PM
  #940
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Is this an eagles thread or Penn state? :p

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11-14-2011, 09:31 AM
  #941
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Having issues posting so sorry if this is a double post...



Did they contact the Penn State Police though? I though that was what happened in 1998 when a kid's mother made a complaint and they closed the investigation or whatever (even though he apparently admitted to inappropriate behavior and said he wouldn't shower with kids again), then a few years later the shower **** thing happened and that's where the failure began. If they contacted the police after the McQueary ordeal, that is a different story, but I am pretty sure they didn't, otherwise this wouldn't be an issue. If they did this heat would be aimed at the police, not the university. If you tell the police and nothing happens, its out of your hands, but as far as I know the McQueary allegations were never followed up with any police contact, hence the outrage.
That's the thing--it depends on how you interpret Schultz's involvement. As Senior VP for Business and Finance, he supervised the university police department. There's really no other reason for him to be involved in the MM-AD meeting, so it seems, at some point, that someone decided this was something that needed attention. What happened from there isn't known--and, to my mind, is the key question in all of this.

No one called 9-1-1, and no one filed a report through the normal channels. That was wrong, and there's really no logical explanation for it. But I think its inaccurate to say (as most of the media have) that law enforcement was never contacted in 2002. As with most things in this story, its more complicated than that. Somewhere between MM telling AD and GS and the GJ investigation in 2008-2009, the matter got dropped. How and when that happened is the key question, IMO.

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11-14-2011, 11:08 AM
  #942
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That's the thing--it depends on how you interpret Schultz's involvement. As Senior VP for Business and Finance, he supervised the university police department. There's really no other reason for him to be involved in the MM-AD meeting, so it seems, at some point, that someone decided this was something that needed attention. What happened from there isn't known--and, to my mind, is the key question in all of this.

No one called 9-1-1, and no one filed a report through the normal channels. That was wrong, and there's really no logical explanation for it. But I think its inaccurate to say (as most of the media have) that law enforcement was never contacted in 2002. As with most things in this story, its more complicated than that. Somewhere between MM telling AD and GS and the GJ investigation in 2008-2009, the matter got dropped. How and when that happened is the key question, IMO.
Come on, you know that isn't how it works. His title may have put Schultz in a place to make certain decisions regarding the police force, but he is not the police.

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11-14-2011, 11:16 AM
  #943
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How about those eagles really really freakin suck!.. When you lose to a team with John Skelton quarterbacking you really are a horrible team. Howard Eskin also said that Andy Reid is gonna be out of here at the seasons end too, and he has insiders so its believable.

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11-14-2011, 12:59 PM
  #944
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Vick has two broken ribs...

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11-14-2011, 01:01 PM
  #945
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Vick has two broken ribs...
Is that an annual tradition?

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11-14-2011, 05:41 PM
  #946
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Howard Eskin also said that Andy Reid is gonna be out of here at the seasons end too, and he has insiders so its believable.
Let's hope so. And hopefully Mornhinweg and Castillo go with him.

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11-14-2011, 08:00 PM
  #947
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http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/452834...some-sense-me/

A former PSU coach backing up my position (Joe is the seat of power, equally culpable, was willing to let others take fall for him, a selfish *******, etc)

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11-14-2011, 08:18 PM
  #948
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How about those eagles really really freakin suck!.. When you lose to a team with John Skelton quarterbacking you really are a horrible team. Howard Eskin also said that Andy Reid is gonna be out of here at the seasons end too, and he has insiders so its believable.
Howard and Andy are butt buddies to. If Howard is saying that then it must be true. Jeffery is not going to **** can him now. He will wait until years end. But if they keep on losing you would hope big red would step down before the year is out. He is lucky this Penn State thing popped up right now to take some of the heat off of him. Otherwise he really would be getting his balls busted. The reporters are like vultures and smell dead meat. He was getting some tough questions today.

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11-14-2011, 08:19 PM
  #949
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http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/452834...some-sense-me/

A former PSU coach backing up my position (Joe is the seat of power, equally culpable, was willing to let others take fall for him, a selfish *******, etc)
A former coach... a disgruntled former employee... eager to get his name in lights....

Sara Ganim, the crime reporter for the Harrisburg Patriot-News, and the media period who probably has the most knowledge of this case, said that there is no evidence, none, that Paterno even knew about the 1998 investigation.

Why take the word of a former employee, but not 200 former players? We need to wait for the full case to come out--not the juicy details leaked from the GJ.

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11-14-2011, 08:26 PM
  #950
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A former coach... a disgruntled former employee... eager to get his name in lights....

Sara Ganim, the crime reporter for the Harrisburg Patriot-News, and the media period who probably has the most knowledge of this case, said that there is no evidence, none, that Paterno even knew about the 1998 investigation.

Why take the word of a former employee, but not 200 former players? We need to wait for the full case to come out--not the juicy details leaked from the GJ.
Prove he's trying to get famous off of this. You want me to prove that Paterno is a sack of crap more concerned with preserving his own image and legacy than with putting a pedophile behind bars, so you do the same for this guy.

Beef Invictus is offline  
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