HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

DEBATE: Is the cap going down next season and how much? (And can we afford Parise?)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-15-2011, 08:14 AM
  #51
TheRedressor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Country: United Nations
Posts: 3,733
vCash: 500
I think a lot of people are discounting the fact that the CBA expires on 9/15. You have to figure that revenue will have increased this past season which will initially dictate a higer cap. Then at that point on 7/1 the Rangers or any other team will sign Parise to a long term deal most likely similiarly structured to the Brad Richards deal. Parise will collect as large of a signing bonus as possible that day on 7/1. After this point his contract will be rolled back upon the new CBA agreement just like everyone elses and he will be able to fit in just fine. If there are some issues I am sure they will have the free buy-out period like last time.

TheRedressor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 09:02 AM
  #52
pld459666
Registered User
 
pld459666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Danbury, CT
Country: United States
Posts: 17,093
vCash: 500
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Which is exactly the attitude that got us 8 years without the playoffs, plus the Gomez, Drury and Redden contracts. This team doesn't need someone of Zach Parise's caliber, so why "go big" instead of "being smart"?
At some point, when you have a system as deep as the Rangers do, you have to start thinking big in terms of pursuit of the Holy Grail.

If you are adding these guys like Richards and (hopefully) Parise, without the negative benefit of moving young assets to do it, you make that move.

Gaborik is not going to be here forever and should he post 3 of his five seasons with the Rangers at 40+ goals and 80+ points, he's going to want an increase. I'm sorry, but the benefit of a deep system is that you can afford to let those guys go.

Keeping the system deep and adding Parise if you can is a no brainer.

pld459666 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 09:15 AM
  #53
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 29,510
vCash: 500
If Parise hits UFA, the Rangers will be players. If it means that in 2 years they have to move players like Rupp, Boyle, etc. and replace them with younger players on ELC's they will do it. That is how the league works. Hard decisions are needed once a team gets good but a team icing:

Hank
Richards
Parise
Gaborik
Staal
Girardi
Callahan
Dubinsky
McDonagh
Sauer
Stepan
Anisimov

Is going to be considered, at the very least, a SERIOUS contender not only for (1) season, but for the foreseeable future. Parise is the player to go all out for. He is friends with Stepan (they train together over the summer).

NYR Viper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 09:34 AM
  #54
KennyWu
Registered User
 
KennyWu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 299
vCash: 500
I would rather have an elite d-man with some offensive skill, someone like Suter or Weber (I think someone said he's not an UFA).

Locking up $20+ mil on 4 guys is a little scary but I can't say no to Parise on this team.

KennyWu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 11:05 AM
  #55
NHRangerfan
enfoonts
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Country: United States
Posts: 3,091
vCash: 500
Have to believe the cap will go down...one only needs to look at the Holy Grail of revenue generating sports, the NFL, to see that....after the current CBA was approved the cap dropped 8 million dollars from the 2009 season which was the last capped season. In real terms that means that the shift in revenue split ate up any revenue growth and then some from 2009-2011.


Last edited by NHRangerfan: 11-15-2011 at 11:16 AM. Reason: removed "not" from in front of go down
NHRangerfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 11:05 AM
  #56
RangerBoy
#freejtmiller
 
RangerBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 32,152
vCash: 500
The current midpoint without the 5% escalator is $53.485M. The real midpoint for $3B in revenue at 57% for the players. Add 5% at $2.815M. Add another $8M. Nearly $11M more than the midpoint. The NHL can play around with those numbers to achieve their goal of lowering the upper limit.

RangerBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 11:27 AM
  #57
NHRangerfan
enfoonts
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Country: United States
Posts: 3,091
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerEsq View Post
Yeah, this is my next research project. To review other teams' cap position to show that if the cap were to be dropped by $8 as some people suggested, half the league would find it impossible to operate.

You will suddenly see (well-paid) stars being dumped for little to nothing just to fit teams under the cap.
Didn't we hear the same argument when the current CBA went into effect? The stars will always get their money, the mid to low level guys will and always take the hit.

NHRangerfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 11:32 AM
  #58
NHRangerfan
enfoonts
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Country: United States
Posts: 3,091
vCash: 500
2012-13 Cap numbers based on 56.3 salary cap
Team Payroll Bonuses Cap Space Roster
Philadelphia Flyers $58,883,373 $3,555,000 -$2,583,373 20
Chicago Blackhawks $56,296,794 $325,000 $3,206 16
Buffalo Sabres $56,121,190 $87,500 $178,810 17
San Jose Sharks $55,564,167 $0 $735,833 14
Vancouver Canucks $54,974,999 $850,000 $1,325,001 16
Pittsburgh Penguins $54,016,667 $0 $2,283,333 16
Los Angeles Kings $50,114,642 $342,500 $6,185,358 19
Toronto Maple Leafs $48,328,333 $212,500 $7,971,667 16
Columbus Blue Jackets $47,741,060 $1,337,500 $8,558,940 14
Boston Bruins $47,582,143 $2,992,500 $8,717,857 14
New York Rangers $47,508,334 $425,000 $8,791,666 14
Minnesota Wild $44,263,610 $177,500 $12,036,390 13
Washington Capitals $43,494,572 $80,000 $12,805,428 15
Calgary Flames $43,145,833 $345,000 $13,154,167 14
Tampa Bay Lightning $41,171,916 $750,000 $15,128,084 11
Detroit Red Wings $40,542,045 $0 $15,757,955 15
New Jersey Devils $39,129,166 $262,500 $17,170,834 13
Florida Panthers $38,744,500 $2,300,000 $17,555,500 14
Montreal Canadiens $38,082,143 $0 $18,217,857 10
Anaheim Ducks $37,835,000 $782,500 $18,465,000 13
Carolina Hurricanes $36,966,667 $587,500 $19,333,333 15
Edmonton Oilers $36,458,333 $6,637,500 $19,841,667 13
Ottawa Senators $35,935,833 $1,025,000 $20,364,167 13
Dallas Stars $35,150,000 $0 $21,150,000 11
Winnipeg Jets $33,412,500 $650,000 $22,887,500 11
St. Louis Blues $33,145,832 $3,200,000 $23,154,168 14
New York Islanders $31,857,333 $1,925,000 $24,442,667 11
Nashville Predators $29,710,833 $0 $26,589,167 10
Phoenix Coyotes $29,337,500 $850,000 $26,962,500 14
Colorado Avalanche $20,558,333 $2,650,000 $35,741,667 7

NHRangerfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 11:34 AM
  #59
broadwayblue
Registered User
 
broadwayblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 15,841
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2d View Post
Here's my problem with this thread:

What makes anybody think that Parise's coming here without us making a major trade for him? Devils aren't just going to let him walk for nothing.
He's a UFA after this season...if he chooses not to re-sign prior to July 1 he can go anywhere he wants, costing his new team nothing. He has the power, not the Devils.

broadwayblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 11:41 AM
  #60
GAGLine
HFBoards Sponsor
 
GAGLine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 9,614
vCash: 500
The problem with the cap currently is that the bottom teams can't keep up with the growth rate of the league as a whole. Until they address that, we are going to continue to have problems.

GAGLine is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 11:47 AM
  #61
NHRangerfan
enfoonts
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Country: United States
Posts: 3,091
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
The problem with the cap currently is that the bottom teams can't keep up with the growth rate of the league as a whole. Until they address that, we are going to continue to have problems.
Exactly...and I think this is why you will see the mid and small market teams be very militant about the revenue split and a harder cap IMO. I think Burnside or Lebrun had an article that the mid/small markets also want to see UFA age go back up again, they feel that "buying" UFA years in contracts is a contrbuting factor in salary escalation.

NHRangerfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 12:03 PM
  #62
Trxjw
Retired.
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Land of no calls..
Country: United States
Posts: 16,940
vCash: 500
The only way we're players for Parise is if we see Dubinsky traded sometime between the draft and July 1st. There is absolutely no chance that the Rangers are going to invest in another $6M+ contract and still carry four more ~$4M contracts on the books in Callahan, Dubi, Girardi and Staal. That's not even taking into consideration the uncertainty regarding the CBA.

Parise is a great player, but you don't risk losing cap flexibility for one guy. Keep in mind that in a couple years, we're going to have 4 key RFAs to re-sign in McDonagh, Stepan, Anisimov and Sauer. While I think Sauer may eventually be the odd-man out on the blue line, the other three are vital to the success of this team both in the short term, and the future.

If we can replace Dubinsky with Parise, it's obviously a win, but at some point this team is going to have to stop turning over the roster every summer if it wants to compete for a cup. As we've seen with Gaborik and Richards not hitting it off, things that look good on paper don't always translate into success on the ice. The good news is, I think Kreider has a real shot at being just the kind of winger Richards is going to mesh with.

Trxjw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 12:29 PM
  #63
I Am Chariot
One shift at a time
 
I Am Chariot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 14,546
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
The only way we're players for Parise is if we see Dubinsky traded sometime between the draft and July 1st.
I would trade Dubi to gain Parise. Good move if Slats can pull it off. Don't you think?

He could move Dubi for picks if it makes Zach Parise a NY Ranger.

__________________
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man
I Am Chariot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 12:34 PM
  #64
Hockey Team
Hunger Force
 
Hockey Team's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New York, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 4,485
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
He's a UFA after this season...if he chooses not to re-sign prior to July 1 he can go anywhere he wants, costing his new team nothing. He has the power, not the Devils.
Right, but the odds of him making it to July 1 are low.

Richards is a rare exception to the rule that elite players in their prime do not go to the open market.

Hockey Team is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 12:35 PM
  #65
bluecollarblueshirt*
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 123
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
I would trade Dubi to gain Parise. Good move if Slats can pull it off. Don't you think?

He could move Dubi for picks if it makes Zach Parise a NY Ranger.
Possibly he's pretty good with trades come on he got rid of Gomez so thats a given. but I don't think that Parise will come to the rangers only because thats a big snub to the devils. Especially it being his first team and all. They will most definitely resign him no matter the cost. But in the end its truly up to Parise himself to decide where he wants to play. I do not see him in a rangers uniform next year. Suter or Shea weber now thats a different story.

bluecollarblueshirt* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 12:48 PM
  #66
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
 
Tawnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 12,735
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
At some point, when you have a system as deep as the Rangers do, you have to start thinking big in terms of pursuit of the Holy Grail.

If you are adding these guys like Richards and (hopefully) Parise, without the negative benefit of moving young assets to do it, you make that move.

Gaborik is not going to be here forever and should he post 3 of his five seasons with the Rangers at 40+ goals and 80+ points, he's going to want an increase. I'm sorry, but the benefit of a deep system is that you can afford to let those guys go.

Keeping the system deep and adding Parise if you can is a no brainer.
For all of our vaunted depth, our teams biggest flaw is exactly that. The reason we aren't contenders is not lack of top talent, it's lack of talented depth. In a vacuum, Parise helps that problem. In reality, he hurts it long term.

Tawnos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 01:07 PM
  #67
Beacon
Sent to HF Minors
 
Beacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 8,830
vCash: 500
I don't understand how resigning RFAs in the future should deter us from signing Parise now.

1. We can win the Cup by then, which would it worth it no matter what happens. Look at how much youth we gave up to win the 1994 Cup.

2. The cap will rise in 2013 giving us space.

3. Parise is better than anyone we can lose. Say we have to trade away Dubinsky. Parise is better than Dubinsky, and only marginally older.

4. If we trade away someone, we can get full or near-full value for them. It's not as if we would be dealing away Dubinsky, Girardi, whoever for nothing. They would bring back massive return in terms of picks and prospects back.

So even if signing Parise forces us to trade away someone, which is no guarantee, it still isn't bad because we get significantly better in the Garden, and we get significantly better in the farm.

Beacon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 01:13 PM
  #68
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
 
Tawnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 12,735
vCash: 500
1. The only year in which the Rangers can add Parise without losing a player is potentially next year. "We can win a Cup by then"? Not if we start eroding away what makes this current team good.

2. The Cap might rise in 2013, but it isn't going to be higher than it is right now.

3. Parise is better than any single player we can lose. He isn't better than losing any two of Anisimov/Stepan/McDonagh/Sauer.

4. Dealing away players like Dubinsky or Girardi for picks is not something teams who are contending do.

Tawnos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 01:15 PM
  #69
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 29,510
vCash: 500
I would be 110% a-okay with trading Dubinsky over the off-season if it meant the Rangers were very serious about adding Parise. That's a large upgrade.....

And that is not even considering what Dubinsky could bring back.....

NYR Viper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 01:22 PM
  #70
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
 
Tawnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 12,735
vCash: 500
It's not really the issue of resigning RFAs. A well managed team in the Cap era doesn't trade players or drop depth in order to create Cap space. For example, the Rangers didn't trade away Roszival to be able to afford Richards. They could have done that with Roszival still on the roster. They did it to improve a perceived area of weakness by trading a superfluous player from an area of strength. Look at what happened over the last two years in Chicago. They were able to afford their team in 2010 and they won a Cup. They had to trade away or allow to walk a good portion of their depth in the following off-season to become Cap compliant and they suffered in 2011 because of it. Was the Cup worth it? Of course it was. But if they had managed themselves properly by providing QOs at the correct time, they could have won the Cup in 2010 and still been one of the best teams in the West in 2011. You see what I mean?

Tawnos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 01:27 PM
  #71
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 29,510
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
It's not really the issue of resigning RFAs. A well managed team in the Cap era doesn't trade players or drop depth in order to create Cap space. For example, the Rangers didn't trade away Roszival to be able to afford Richards. They could have done that with Roszival still on the roster. They did it to improve a perceived area of weakness by trading a superfluous player from an area of strength. Look at what happened over the last two years in Chicago. They were able to afford their team in 2010 and they won a Cup. They had to trade away or allow to walk a good portion of their depth in the following off-season to become Cap compliant and they suffered in 2011 because of it. Was the Cup worth it? Of course it was. But if they had managed themselves properly by providing QOs at the correct time, they could have won the Cup in 2010 and still been one of the best teams in the West in 2011. You see what I mean?
They would be upgrading a position of weakness on the team. That's the way I look at it.

The Rangers did it when they traded Gomez. They weakened their center depth in order to sign Gaborik, the elite player.

NYR Viper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 01:32 PM
  #72
Trxjw
Retired.
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Land of no calls..
Country: United States
Posts: 16,940
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
I would trade Dubi to gain Parise. Good move if Slats can pull it off. Don't you think?

He could move Dubi for picks if it makes Zach Parise a NY Ranger.
I think most people would. The issue is the timing. If Dubinsky takes a step forward this season, and the Rangers are paying him like they expect him to, and ultimately ends up as the 30-30 guy we think he can be, then is it worth it to deal him to bring on a guy who will contribute 20-25 more points, but also cost $2-3M more per year?

On the flip side, say Dubinsky doesn't take a step forward and the Rangers put him on the block. What's his value? Will a team roll the dice on that contract without sending any salary back the other way? Not likely. So it makes things tough to manage.

Of course this is all hypothetical, so you can make the case for just about anything.

Trxjw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 01:41 PM
  #73
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
 
Tawnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 12,735
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
They would be upgrading a position of weakness on the team. That's the way I look at it.

The Rangers did it when they traded Gomez. They weakened their center depth in order to sign Gaborik, the elite player.
They ended up replacing Gomez with Prospal, as far as centers are concerned. The thing is that they had the ability to add a Prospal then, even if it was for very cheap. They also had the ability to bring in Kotalik. They aren't going to have that ability if Parise+RFAs put them over the Cap in 2013 and they have to either trade someone or drop someone.

In addition, the entire philosophy is different when you are looking to move from solid team to contender instead of also-ran to playoff team. I will reiterate that the Rangers don't NEED Parise and the money can be spent more wisely elsewhere.

Tawnos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 01:58 PM
  #74
broadwayblue
Registered User
 
broadwayblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 15,841
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
The only way we're players for Parise is if we see Dubinsky traded sometime between the draft and July 1st. There is absolutely no chance that the Rangers are going to invest in another $6M+ contract and still carry four more ~$4M contracts on the books in Callahan, Dubi, Girardi and Staal. That's not even taking into consideration the uncertainty regarding the CBA.

Parise is a great player, but you don't risk losing cap flexibility for one guy. Keep in mind that in a couple years, we're going to have 4 key RFAs to re-sign in McDonagh, Stepan, Anisimov and Sauer. While I think Sauer may eventually be the odd-man out on the blue line, the other three are vital to the success of this team both in the short term, and the future.

If we can replace Dubinsky with Parise, it's obviously a win, but at some point this team is going to have to stop turning over the roster every summer if it wants to compete for a cup. As we've seen with Gaborik and Richards not hitting it off, things that look good on paper don't always translate into success on the ice. The good news is, I think Kreider has a real shot at being just the kind of winger Richards is going to mesh with.
If you have a shot on a player like Parise, and signing him costs you no other assets, you do it. The four guys who are up for new deals in 2 summers are all RFAs as you mentioned, so none of them are getting mega bucks. You sign Parise this summer and you worry about dealing players two years from now if need be.

broadwayblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-15-2011, 02:15 PM
  #75
Trxjw
Retired.
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Land of no calls..
Country: United States
Posts: 16,940
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
If you have a shot on a player like Parise, and signing him costs you no other assets, you do it. The four guys who are up for new deals in 2 summers are all RFAs as you mentioned, so none of them are getting mega bucks. You sign Parise this summer and you worry about dealing players two years from now if need be.
The raises they'd be getting don't have to be huge in order to give us problems. $1MM per player (as an example) still eats up $4MM in cap space.

Trxjw is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:51 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.