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Old
11-17-2011, 11:56 AM
  #76
gillyguzzler
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Positives

MaxPac is turning into a stud
Team is getting better in spite of the injuries
"Youth" gaining experience because of injuries
Price and Budaj have been solid
DD, although not a #1, is doing well
AK46 before his injury
Eller showing great stuff at times in spite of no training camp
Plek, other than his PP point play
Moen already has 6 goals and has played well on every line
Gorges has been rock solid
Subban is learning and getting better
Cole is a very solid signing.
The Randys taking on a bigger role
The PK has been terrific
Spacek when not injured

Negatives
The PP and JM's obsession with Darche and Plek
Home record
Out of a playoff spott - injuries and PP mostly to blame
Carey Price in shootouts
Gionta is very inconsistent
Cammy - hurt and only 4 goals
Gomez - two points
Markov - not his fault but man do they ever need him healthy
INJURIES - unbelievably unlucky
Toughness - small Ds and many small Fs
JM - debatable - many hate his style and treatment of certain players, others focus on his NHL experience and back him all the way.

All in all, not bad considering the injuries.

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Old
11-17-2011, 11:57 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
It is like MMA, some fans will call a fight between two BJJ artists boring because they wil be on the floor during the whole fight. They cannot appreciate the spectacle as much. I have no problem in watching a defensive game. Bad and boring games can happen, like in Pittsburgh and CGY, but overall, I am entertained.
I agree with this, many fans don't like GSP for his inability to finish fighters and deem his fights boring.

I can appreciate the fact that he can dominate other fighters, with whatever style he needs to be successful, whether it's his stand up, or gnp or whatever. Something needs to be said for a fighter who can dominate other elite fighters without ever having put themselves at much risk. Same as boxing, fighters like Lewis weren't the best crowd pleasers, but their ability to systematically pick their opponents apart, most of which are elite athletes themselves is impressive to me. I appreciate the sport for what it is, I prefer a solid technical fighter more so than a slugger who has no other skill other than brawling.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Pretty much. It's past the point of being pathetic too, it is quite comical.
Even funnier is that some will try to tell me what I meant.
Habs fans, the greatest...or the worst?..hmmm
Every fan base has its share. I don't see anything wrong with the thread. Their winning record that they have put together is exactly what I expected if they continued dominating their opposition.

Some will never be happy and they'll continue to want the coach fired ect. The job JM has done with this roster and their injuries is amazing to be honest. He had a roster with 4 dman with little to no NHL experience and had held the opposition to 5 shots through half a game. Not sure what else can be done here.

Be happy were winning and hope for the best. I don't think we're the favorites by any means, but if we keep outplaying the majority of teams. I don't see a reason why we can't be successful.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 11-17-2011 at 04:47 PM. Reason: merge
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Old
11-17-2011, 12:04 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Bill McNeal View Post
Sorry, fans that go to opposing teams boards and beg for them to beat our team and take suggestions on what derogatory signs they should take to a game aren't very good fans at all.

I guess I'm old fashioned that way.


By the way the sign I decided on was hey Molson your beer sucks and so does your coach and GM.

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Old
11-17-2011, 12:08 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
there's a difference in recognizing success and recognizing success by the babyish ''told you so tankers'' approaches.

this board has issues in accepting that not all fans have the same opinions...

I'll put it to you in the simplistic terms that may be required for those that haven't caught-on;
  1. There is no ONE rule or approach on how to be a habs fan.
  2. We're all fans and we're all equal. Even though opinions vary.
  3. A fan that is ''less critical'' is no better than a fan that is ''very hard to please''

Some of you should should eat some soap ... because you act like children.
Agreed.

Some fans are simply more demanding than others. They might have been through a good run during the Habs history and will not accept the team crawling into the playoffs or settling for a 1-0 win over a bottom seeded team. It doesnt mean that we do not accept the realities of injuries or younger players..etc. But we still always expect excellence. Other teams do fine with the same problems, we should find a way and not come up with all sorts of excuses.

Like any big sport franchise, anything less than a win, playoff spot or a cup is unacceptable. I'm one of those fans. Saying that we are one spot out of 8th or 18th total in a the league is a statement of failure, not one to accept.

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Old
11-17-2011, 12:11 PM
  #80
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I personally won't be happy until this team is at least as good as the '76-'77 team. I'm sick of having double digit losses during a season.

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Old
11-17-2011, 12:20 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Saint Patrick View Post
Agreed.

Some fans are simply more demanding than others. They might have been through a good run during the Habs history and will not accept the team crawling into the playoffs or settling for a 1-0 win over a bottom seeded team. It doesnt mean that we do not accept the realities of injuries or younger players..etc. But we still always expect excellence. Other teams do fine with the same problems, we should find a way and not come up with all sorts of excuses.

Like any big sport franchise, anything less than a win, playoff spot or a cup is unacceptable. I'm one of those fans. Saying that we are one spot out of 8th or 18th total in a the league is a statement of failure, not one to accept.
You and cool are bang on and people who accept just squeeking in need to wake up to the glory of our franchise. As a HABS fan that shouldn't be acceptable.

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Old
11-17-2011, 12:29 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by 29dryden29 View Post
You and cool are bang on and people who accept just squeeking in need to wake up to the glory of our franchise. As a HABS fan that shouldn't be acceptable.
To actually squeak in, we need to wait until the 82 game mark and see how things finish.

The season isn't even 25% done and some people already know what is going to happen.

Some people have already slotted this team to "just squeak in". 18 games in, they have already convinced themselves this team can't do it.

18 games in. Barely. Squeak. In.

As a Habs fan, that is unacceptable.

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Old
11-17-2011, 12:38 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
What exactly is "kool-aid'ish" about this thread? It's not like he's saying were a cup front runner?

Also, about that last sentence; I think everyone expects more, but whining and crying about it every other thread, wont make it all come true. I think some fans are spoiled and some are calm, and some are stupid and some are emotionally underdeveloped, and some are mature and some are experts and some are Trolls, etc.
about as much as the thought out critiques of the team are "doom & gloom"... which is to say neither is an accurate description.


so-called "whinning & crying" is no more effective than "blindly praising". I frankly don't think the quality posters on here (wether I agree or disagree with them) practice either "whinning" or "blindly praising"...


it's a message board, obviously there are all kinds of posters... which is why lumping any critical posts about the team as "whinning & crying" is pretty stupid.


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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
This is what I don't get. What makes you a contender really? To be a top of the standings in the regular season? How well has that gone for San Jose? How well has that gone for Washington?

What matters in the regular season is players developing, creating chemistry with one another and, of course, making the playoffs. I think this team has proven what it can do in the playoffs, and while their regular season stats don't show that they are a contender, I'm willing to bet whoever has to play the habs in the post season will not be looking forward to it.

Contenders are created in the postseason. This team has players who step their game up when the time comes. If anything I feel more comfortable now with this core, than when the habs were a top the east in 2007-08. While I think there are better teams out there in terms of talent and size... think of a team that has more will.

The playoffs are a whole new season, the habs just have to get there
the bolded part is a fallacy that every team and fan tells themselves to build confidence, which is certainly understandable.

Playoffs are actually just an extension of a given season, and without a doubt the things that happen in the regular season (from injuries to momentum to seeding) have a huge impact on the chances any team has to get to the cup.

the reality, is that bottom seeds very rarely make it to the cup and win. It happens, of course, since sport is never a black/white world, but finishing top-4, top-3, top-2 or 1st, makes the "road to the cup" much easier.

"contenders are created in the postseason"? come on... don't be facetious.

you can play around with the semantics all you want, and to be sure my interpretation of what a "contender" is may not be the same as another, but every year there are a few teams in each conference that go into the season as playoff "locks" and then even while dealing with the injuries & up's/down's that affect every team over 82 games, manage to stay among the top in their conference for the bulk of the season.

some teams that look like contenders, struggle enough to make it close and then squeak into the playoffs (blackhawks last year for example), or even perhaps implode and fall off the map (flyers from a few seasons ago), but if they have a roster built well enough to be a real contender, they find themselves back among the league best the next year.

as MM would say "regress to the mean".

for some teams, the "mean" is top-4 & playoff lock, for other teams (like us), it's "just make the playoffs"... the Habs have been a "just make the playoffs" team every season (except for 08, the statistical anomaly) of this century.


of course, "just making the playoffs", is much better than missing them, and once in the playoffs any team is just a Halakian hot streak away from making a deep run, even maybe getting all the way to the cup if lady luck is on their side, but that's not a contender.

and as the Sharks, Nucks, Caps (or JM's Sens) have shown, being a contender is not a guarantee to actually winning.

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Old
11-17-2011, 12:39 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Protest the Hero View Post
I personally won't be happy until this team is at least as good as the '76-'77 team. I'm sick of having double digit losses during a season.


That's a good one !

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Old
11-17-2011, 01:08 PM
  #85
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
about as much as the thought out critiques of the team are "doom & gloom"... which is to say neither is an accurate description.


so-called "whinning & crying" is no more effective than "blindly praising". I frankly don't think the quality posters on here (wether I agree or disagree with them) practice either "whinning" or "blindly praising"...


it's a message board, obviously there are all kinds of posters... which is why lumping any critical posts about the team as "whinning & crying" is pretty stupid..
If you actually read this thread, you would have noticed that nobody here suggested everything to be gloomy, perfect and wondderful. That is the simple interpretation of a few who for some reason believe any type of optimism or positivity means drinking some kool aid.

If it is so obvious that there is some over-cheering going on in this specific thread, then point it out.
Saying that things are not as bleak as they may have appeared to be, to cheer up, is not over cheering, at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Every fan base has its share. I don't see anything wrong with the thread. Their winning record that they have put together is exactly what I expected if they continued dominating their opposition.

Some will never be happy and they'll continue to want the coach fired ect. The job JM has done with this roster and their injuries is amazing to be honest. He had a roster with 4 dman with little to no NHL experience and had held the opposition to 5 shots through half a game. Not sure what else can be done here.

Be happy were winning and hope for the best. I don't think we're the favorites by any means, but if we keep outplaying the majority of teams. I don't see a reason why we can't be successful.
Agreed. But when people dislike something, it is tough for them to give some credit away.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 11-17-2011 at 04:47 PM. Reason: merge
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Old
11-17-2011, 01:18 PM
  #86
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We get that you people who are more critical of the team want more out of your team... But we can't do anything for you there, that's why the constant management and player bashing even after wins are bugging everyone. We understand your plight, but we can't help...

So how about we just talk hockey instead of what we should do with our coach and gm, because, let's be reality, none of us can change that.

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Old
11-17-2011, 01:27 PM
  #87
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Tied for 18th, actually.
No, they're not. Except for the Wild all the other teams have played less games hence less third periods and you call yourself Mathman. I'll give you the Wild though so they're tied for 22nd.

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Old
11-17-2011, 01:46 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 29dryden29 View Post
You and cool are bang on and people who accept just squeeking in need to wake up to the glory of our franchise. As a HABS fan that shouldn't be acceptable.
Respect ! D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Bourdain View Post
To actually squeak in, we need to wait until the 82 game mark and see how things finish.

The season isn't even 25% done and some people already know what is going to happen.

Some people have already slotted this team to "just squeak in". 18 games in, they have already convinced themselves this team can't do it.

18 games in. Barely. Squeak. In.

As a Habs fan, that is unacceptable.
This has been the trend for a few seasons now (with the exception of one or two). We arent just talking about this season, at least I'm not.

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Old
11-17-2011, 02:12 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Saint Patrick View Post
Respect ! D



This has been the trend for a few seasons now (with the exception of one or two). We arent just talking about this season, at least I'm not.
See we apparently think the same and as HABS fans we have all earned the right to be critical of our team based on our franchise and all the success we have seen. The last 18 years have been hell to say the least.

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11-17-2011, 02:21 PM
  #90
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Although I can certainly respect expecting excellence if you guys are using the 70s Habs as your measuring stick I hate to break it to you but you're in for a long wait. For one all the other teams are good now and there a a lot more of them, for second the perfect alignment of elements that came into play for that team to be so good for so long I doubt repeat themselves in a lifetime. It's just such a different league now and the difference between losing and wining is paper thin.

I can appreciate not wanting to finish 8th every year and just squeaking into the playoffs. But it could be a lot worse (see Toronto with over half of decade of hockey and no playoffs at all) and I do believe that with the emergence of young players who obviously care a lot about this team like Price, Subban and Pacioretty I'd say things are looking a lot more positive than negative as a whole.

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Old
11-17-2011, 02:23 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by 29dryden29 View Post
You and cool are bang on and people who accept just squeeking in need to wake up to the glory of our franchise. As a HABS fan that shouldn't be acceptable.
Ok, so you claim you don't accept mediocrity, so what are you going to do about it? Aside from complaining on message boards, of course. You are free to cheer for another team. I hear the leafs are doing well this year. You are no more superior a fan as anyone else. We all enjoy winning and wish for the best for our team.

The only difference between "Accepting" or "Not Accepting" the results of the games is better mental health. I choose to accept reality, because not doing so is self deception and the definition of delusion.

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Old
11-17-2011, 02:26 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Very well said...

Lose a few = doom & gloom

Win a few = pass the kool aid

Bottom line, we haven't iced a serious contender in over a decade

Some fans expect more, some are happy with regular season home wins against non playoff teams...
Way to bring your cloud into a positive thread.

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11-17-2011, 03:05 PM
  #93
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team is on the right track that's for sure.

not everything is perfect but as much as some posters might like, cup winners aren't built in one season. this current team was built 2 and a half season ago

few things irk me, like how gauthier doesn't want or is unable to make a big trade - not that it's a big deal, smaller trades can work out well too (nok). martin sometime odd choice of lines and i could go on, but all in all, this franchise is on the right track

Quote:
Originally Posted by 29dryden29 View Post
You and cool are bang on and people who accept just squeeking in need to wake up to the glory of our franchise. As a HABS fan that shouldn't be acceptable.
and how do you suggest we stop squeaking in into the playoffs?

tank? well that would be unacceptable since we'd be, you know, losing... try to gradually improve the team over time, kinda like what the bruins did? well that would also be unacceptable since, you know, we'd have to lose a bit for a while...

serious question is serious and demands an answer! and how do you suggest we stop squeaking in into the playoffs?


Last edited by Mike8: 11-17-2011 at 03:15 PM.
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Old
11-17-2011, 03:20 PM
  #94
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I think our team last year and this year is as much a contender as Boston was and they won the cup.

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11-17-2011, 03:37 PM
  #95
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Ok, so you claim you don't accept mediocrity, so what are you going to do about it? Aside from complaining on message boards, of course. You are free to cheer for another team. I hear the leafs are doing well this year. You are no more superior a fan as anyone else. We all enjoy winning and wish for the best for our team.

The only difference between "Accepting" or "Not Accepting" the results of the games is better mental health. I choose to accept reality, because not doing so is self deception and the definition of delusion.
Pretty much this. The only way you can seriously "not accept" the management or the teams performance is to not follow the team (no merchandise, game tickets or providing ratings during Habs games).

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11-17-2011, 03:42 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
Ok, so you claim you don't accept mediocrity, so what are you going to do about it? Aside from complaining on message boards, of course. You are free to cheer for another team. I hear the leafs are doing well this year. You are no more superior a fan as anyone else. We all enjoy winning and wish for the best for our team.

The only difference between "Accepting" or "Not Accepting" the results of the games is better mental health. I choose to accept reality, because not doing so is self deception and the definition of delusion.


Its not like we are trying to figure out an action plan here. Its just a normal discussion between fans. Equally its not because we expect more of our team that we start cheering for another one when things arent going well, but we do discuss expecting more with other fans.

If you are ecstatic or satisfied about your team's performance then good for you, there is nothing wrong with that, just like the next guy who thinks we can be better than we have been the past decade or so.

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11-17-2011, 03:54 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
but...... Gomez does suck.
Yes.
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
now, back on topic...

What is it that we are putting into perspective?

Are the habs a contender now?

Or, is this thread just another way of saying ''we're not as crap as our start'' ....

Big revelations.

I'll bring out the pom poms when we start icing legitimate contenders.... until then, don't smack on the fans that want more.
And yes.

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11-17-2011, 04:20 PM
  #98
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Its not like we are trying to figure out an action plan here. Its just a normal discussion between fans. Equally its not because we expect more of our team that we start cheering for another one when things arent going well, but we do discuss expecting more with other fans.

If you are ecstatic or satisfied about your team's performance then good for you, there is nothing wrong with that, just like the next guy who thinks we can be better than we have been the past decade or so.
Is it?
When people miss the entire point and claim that people are drinking Kool-aid, that there's no need to bring out the pom poms, then I'm sorry, it doesn't qualify as a normal discussion.
Nobody here claimed the Habs to be perfect.
Nobody said we were contenders.
Nobody said management never did any mistakes.
Nobody ever said Martin was an amazing coach.
The list could go on, and on.

If you go back to the OP, it said, ''things are not as bleak'' and ''Cheer up'', because as you know it's been nothing but criticism about pretty much every thing around these boards. Defense sucks, Offense sucks, fire the coach, fire the GM, what! we fired Pearn! absolutely unfair and classless move (despite not one single fan ever saying one good thing about Pearn before it happened. Some fans were just frustrated it wasn't the coach, that's all. They couldn't give two craps about Pearn, but hey, let's defend him now. Agenda.), our depth is weak, Cole was such a bad signing, Gomez is horrendous, mistake of the year was signing Markov, etc...
You name it, there's nobody left to criticize other than Pierre Gervais now.
Point was to let the guys that were all up in arms about our team just a couple weeks ago know that, hey, things aren't so bad afterall. So calm the F. down.

I criticized Martin and Gauthier since the start of the year, there's nothing wrong with that.

Why does it have to be that if people say things are okay, that you have to interprete as if they are ''ecstatic'' or ''satisfied''? Can't they just be optimistic? Can't they be pleased with certain players and displeased with others, which wouldn't make them completely satisfied? And why is it that if they feel that way, it must mean they don't want us to improve and be better than what we have in the past decade?
Makes no sense at all.

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11-17-2011, 04:32 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
team is on the right track that's for sure.

not everything is perfect but as much as some posters might like, cup winners aren't built in one season. this current team was built 2 and a half season ago

few things irk me, like how gauthier doesn't want or is unable to make a big trade - not that it's a big deal, smaller trades can work out well too (nok). martin sometime odd choice of lines and i could go on, but all in all, this franchise is on the right track



and how do you suggest we stop squeaking in into the playoffs?

tank? well that would be unacceptable since we'd be, you know, losing... try to gradually improve the team over time, kinda like what the bruins did? well that would also be unacceptable since, you know, we'd have to lose a bit for a while...

serious question is serious and demands an answer! and how do you suggest we stop squeaking in into the playoffs?
Get a better coach better drafting and a better farm system to build a consistent winner you know kinda like that other Original six team with the winged wheel on their jersey. We need to stop letting good coaches walk in favour of the garbage currently residing behind our bench. We need a GM that is not willing to systematicaly dismantle this team like PG seems willing to do. Did PG or JM accomplish much in Ottawa JM made the finals and lost PG then quicky sold off the decent parts of that team other than Spezz and Alfie. We need a GM that knows what this franchise is based and built on and bring that passion back same with the coach. I think JM should have walked and Muller should have been the next in line or atleast give muller the head job in Hamilton. Notice our PP since Muller left I sure have and is sucks coincidence I think not. We need a GM like Bowman in the fold that doesn't stand for nor take **** from people.

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11-17-2011, 04:45 PM
  #100
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Is it?
When people miss the entire point and claim that people are drinking Kool-aid, that there's no need to bring out the pom poms, then I'm sorry, it doesn't qualify as a normal discussion.
Nobody here claimed the Habs to be perfect.
Nobody said we were contenders.
Nobody said management never did any mistakes.
Nobody ever said Martin was an amazing coach.
The list could go on, and on.

If you go back to the OP, it said, ''things are not as bleak'' and ''Cheer up'', because as you know it's been nothing but criticism about pretty much every thing around these boards. Defense sucks, Offense sucks, fire the coach, fire the GM what! we fired Pearn! absolutely unfair and classless move (despite not one single fan ever saying one good thing about Pearn before it happened. Some fans were just frustrated it wasn't the coach, that's all. They couldn't give two craps about Pearn, but hey, let's defend him now. Agenda.), our depth is weak, Cole was such a bad signing, Gomez is horrendous, mistake of the year was signing Markov, etc...,
You name it, there's nobody left to criticize other than Pierre Gervais now.
Point was to let the guys that were all up in arms about our team just a couple weeks ago know that, hey, things aren't so bad afterall. So calm the F. down.

I criticized Martin and Gauthier since the start of the year, there's nothing wrong with that.

Why does it have to be that if people say things are okay, that you have to interprete as if they are ''ecstatic'' or ''satisfied''? Can't they just be optimistic? Can't they be pleased with certain players and displeased with others, which wouldn't make them completely satisfied? And why is it that if they feel that way, it must mean they don't want us to improve and be better than what we have in the past decade?
Makes no sense at all.
And this is where you lose people.

The whole premise of the thread is based on the false presumption that everyone is saying that everything sucks. You lump any criticism on any subject together and attribute them to everyone... and that's not been the case. Sure you can point to negative posts, but you sweep everything with one brush. I can't think of any posters that have said that EVERYTHING sucks. Some are unhappy with the coach and the direction of the team, others though may support Martin and feel its on a weak roster... But you just lump this all together. I can't think of a serious poster who's screamed that we're a last place team and will be for... infinite because everything is wrong with us. And yet, that's pretty much how you've framed this debate. Most (though not all) feel we've underacheived. But if you take from people's posts that they are saying that EVERYTHING sucks, then you're basically saying that folks can't criticize the team.

Then you turn around and scream that you have the right to be positive...

Do you not see the comedy here?

By all means be positive. There IS stuff to be positive about. But when you start a thread by dismissing people's criticisms as whining, you're going to hear about it. And you should hear about it because quite frankly what you're saying is a load of crap.

For the record: I think we're better than our points indicate. I think we have three youngsters that I'm more excited about since I can't remember and we do have something to build around for the future. That IS something to be positive about.

My criticisms of the club are well documented and (I believe anyway) have been fair. You may not like what I have to say or how I say it but it's based on results. You can disagree of course but labelling it 'whining' is just a means by which you dismiss arguments that you either don't agree with or can't refute.

Stop trying to tell people how to think. Stop trying to squelch discussion by labelling those who disagree with you as whiners. You want the right to be positive? Cool. Allow people the right to be critical. This thread is a thinly veiled shot at to those who offer critical views of the team.

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