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Is Alfie a HOF'er?

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Old
11-14-2011, 09:51 AM
  #26
the edler
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as a fellow swede i gotta say no

yes he was a very good player and for a long time too, and his compiled stats looks good on a paper, but a hof should be about standout players and he wasn't really a player that stood out from the rest

like a sergei makarov, eric lindros or pavel bure

he wouldn't be the worst player in the hall as clark gillies already there but that's not a very good argument

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11-14-2011, 11:34 AM
  #27
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Are there worse players in?
Yes.
Is he a nice enough guy to get some "extra points" down the road?
Yes.
"Extra points" for his play with his national team?
Yes.
Will he get in?
Yes.
Would I have him in my "ideal Hall of Fame"?
No.

Still, being from Sweden, he´s one of my fav NHL-players the last 15 years and I will be happy the day he´s elected. As stated above - a nice guy who has always been superb in the national sweater. One of the guys you always knew you´ve would get some high level ice hockey from.

Would love for the Hall to have some sort of "line/pair/five-section". Though not good enough on their own The Pizza Line would rightfully belong there.

And not a fan of the "no Stanley-argument" I actually think there would be no debate if Ottawa had won it in 2007 (or 2005 ). Can´t blame Alfie for that, he´s the one who actually showed up in the finals.

On a side note: When looking strictly at numbers (wich I´m not a fan of...) he´s actually quite comparable to Sundin - one I most certain would like to have in the hall in a near future. And also one who gets to hear the "no Stanley-argument" from those who likes that. Would expect them to be bunched togheter more in 10 years when people don´t have a fresh remembrance of their playing days.

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11-14-2011, 11:38 AM
  #28
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I would put his HoF worthiness on one tier with Paul Kariya by the way, who is also a 50/50 guy for me.

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11-14-2011, 11:55 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
I have a feeling he will get in - down the road. He's pretty comparable to Gilmour, IMO.
I don't agree. Statistically, with era accounted for, it's close in the regular season, and they're both great two-way. But for me Gilmour's playoff resume is just so vastly superior, I put him a different class. Alfredsson was decent, but Gilmour was a beast... he had ridiculous stats but he had even more impact than they show. He could agitate, battle it out and affect a game in ways Alfredsson never could.

And at his peak he was the best mortal in the league, only Lemieux with God-mode activated was able to keep him from winning the Hart. I'll always be sour that he wasn't first ballot. Alfie deserves to get in based on his regular season exploits, but he didn't have the impact and presence of Gilmour.


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Old
11-14-2011, 03:24 PM
  #30
Ed Wood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the edler View Post
as a fellow swede i gotta say no

yes he was a very good player and for a long time too, and his compiled stats looks good on a paper, but a hof should be about standout players and he wasn't really a player that stood out from the rest

like a sergei makarov, eric lindros or pavel bure

he wouldn't be the worst player in the hall as clark gillies already there but that's not a very good argument
I'm a Sens fan and long time admirer of Daniel Alfredsson but the edler sums up my feelings perfectly. Alfie is real close but no cigar.

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Old
11-15-2011, 01:27 PM
  #31
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Yes. Stellar defensive play and being PPG during the Dead Puck Era is very impressive. Not a shabby playoff performer either, if anything he's quite underrated in that department. NHL's second or third best winger at his peak. Also: face of a franchise. Which I don't think should matter when ranking players, but it certainly should be important for HHOF enshrinement.

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11-16-2011, 12:11 AM
  #32
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He's borderline. Nearly PPG, face of a franchise for over a decade, one of the best two-way players of his era, and consistent with a 2nd all-star team nod and an Olympic Gold. I'd induct him but clearly I have some bias

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11-16-2011, 02:46 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
He should and will be inducted.

Comparable career to Sittler and Perreault.


Sittler is on the lower tier (but still deserving) section of the HHOF. Perreault? Clearly ahead of Sittler all-time. There isn't a person in the world that I have ever heard complain about him getting in, nor is there a person who could build a case against him. Can't say that about Sittler, and especially not Alfie.

Look, I just might put Alfie in there deservedly so, but to have seen both play he was not at the same reverence as Perreault

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11-16-2011, 10:32 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Sittler is on the lower tier (but still deserving) section of the HHOF. Perreault? Clearly ahead of Sittler all-time. There isn't a person in the world that I have ever heard complain about him getting in, nor is there a person who could build a case against him. Can't say that about Sittler, and especially not Alfie.

Look, I just might put Alfie in there deservedly so, but to have seen both play he was not at the same reverence as Perreault
Why not? He was comparably dominant offensively (the points rankings don't tell the whole story when you consider the European invasion) and far better defensively.

I don't think he's necessarily criticizing those two as HHOFers, but it's true that he's comparable in total value delivered.

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11-17-2011, 02:42 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Why not? He was comparably dominant offensively (the points rankings don't tell the whole story when you consider the European invasion) and far better defensively.

I don't think he's necessarily criticizing those two as HHOFers, but it's true that he's comparable in total value delivered.
Sittler he is somewhat close to. Perreault he is not close to. There was a debate on here a while ago about Perreault vs. Modano. The consensus was that Perreault was the better player of his time. Modano is ahead of Alfie. To have watched Perreault and Alfie I have a hard time figuring out how Alfie could be comparable to him

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11-17-2011, 10:24 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
There was a debate on here a while ago about Perreault vs. Modano. The consensus was that Perreault was the better player of his time.
Maybe it shouldn't be.

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11-18-2011, 02:31 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Maybe it shouldn't be.
I'm pretty sure if we did a poll on here of Perreault vs. Modano that Perreault would win it. I am also pretty sure that if we did a Perreault vs. Alfredsson poll that Perreault would clean that one up in a landslide.

It isn't an insult to suggest Alfie is not in Perreault's neighbourhood. It isn't as if Perreault is a fringe HHOFer

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11-19-2011, 12:47 AM
  #38
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I'm pretty sure if we did a poll on here of Perreault vs. Modano that Perreault would win it.
And I said, maybe it shouldn't be that way.

you: everyone thinks this.
me: maybe they shouldn't.
you: everyone thinks this.

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11-19-2011, 12:57 AM
  #39
Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
And I said, maybe it shouldn't be that way.

you: everyone thinks this.
me: maybe they shouldn't.
you: everyone thinks this.
You have the floor to suggest why people "maybe" shouldn't think this

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11-19-2011, 01:12 AM
  #40
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
You have the floor to suggest why people "maybe" shouldn't think this
I said it in quite simple terms already. He displayed comparable offensive dominance (when the doubling of the talent pool thanks to the europeans is considered) and was better by a country mile defensively.

Even without making any kind of a european adjustment, Alfredsson's best 10 offensive seasons have a combined percentage score of 767. Perreault is at 796, about 4% better by that metric.

Another metric would be hr's adjusted points. Alfie is 6 adjusted points behind on 121 fewer games.

What percentage better defensively was Alfredsson? It's not easy to make a case that it's less than the percentage Perreault was better offensively - if he even was.

Oh, and you could repeat this post with "Modano" in place of "Alfredsson" and it would be equally compelling.

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11-19-2011, 01:26 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
If he buys a ticket.
He certainly isn't the kind to mail it in!

Alfredsson, Sundin, Marleau, Kariya. Great players that never even got a Stanley Cup Finals chance let alone win. Should history remember them as all-time greats? Absolutely. Certainly their franchises won't ever forget them!!

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11-19-2011, 08:27 AM
  #42
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Alfredsson never got a Finals chance?

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11-19-2011, 08:36 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
He certainly isn't the kind to mail it in!

Alfredsson, Sundin, Marleau, Kariya. Great players that never even got a Stanley Cup Finals chance let alone win. Should history remember them as all-time greats? Absolutely. Certainly their franchises won't ever forget them!!
Both Karyia and Alfredsson have been in the finals.

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11-19-2011, 08:36 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
Alfredsson never got a Finals chance?
Oh yeah. '07 leading his team with 14 postseason goals and four game winners. I was out of country and away from the game that year. That cup run will help him.

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11-19-2011, 08:37 AM
  #45
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Kariya never had a Finals chance ?

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11-19-2011, 08:51 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by MadLuke View Post
Kariya never had a Finals chance ?
Argggh! The two Anaheim finals I was GLAD to miss!! Hate that franchise.

I guess Alfie is like Kariya in that regard, on the losing end of a good cup run, as a team leader.

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11-19-2011, 10:35 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I said it in quite simple terms already. He displayed comparable offensive dominance (when the doubling of the talent pool thanks to the europeans is considered) and was better by a country mile defensively.

Even without making any kind of a european adjustment, Alfredsson's best 10 offensive seasons have a combined percentage score of 767. Perreault is at 796, about 4% better by that metric.

Another metric would be hr's adjusted points. Alfie is 6 adjusted points behind on 121 fewer games.

What percentage better defensively was Alfredsson? It's not easy to make a case that it's less than the percentage Perreault was better offensively - if he even was.

Oh, and you could repeat this post with "Modano" in place of "Alfredsson" and it would be equally compelling.
Or you could look at how they fared against their peers.
Perreault top 10 scoring - 3, 4, 5, 8, 9
Alfredsson top 10 scoring - 4, 7, 9

Not sure why you would take in the European invasion here. It isn't as if Perreault was winning scoring titles with Orr, Espo, Lafleur, Dionne and even Clarke in there, and at the end, Gretzky. He didn't play against scrubs either.

Would you have taken a prime Alfredsson over Perreault? I can't see why. Alfredsson was a fine player and I wouldn't mind him in the HHOF, but put Perreault's prime 1974-'80 against Alfredsson at his best.

Give Alfredsson the defensive edge, but definitely give Perreault the offensive edge. Better skater, more dangerous offensively, a player teams built around to beat more, etc. I've also always thought that Perreault's numbers, while good, never did him any justice on how great his offense truly was.

Give Perreault the edge in the postseason as well.

Lastly, think about Perreault in, say, the 1976 Canada Cup. Just watching him play the game and the way he stood out was there any time you saw Alfredsson stand out among other great players like that?

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11-19-2011, 10:50 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Or you could look at how they fared against their peers.
Perreault top 10 scoring - 3, 4, 5, 8, 9
Alfredsson top 10 scoring - 4, 7, 9

Not sure why you would take in the European invasion here. It isn't as if Perreault was winning scoring titles with Orr, Espo, Lafleur, Dionne and even Clarke in there, and at the end, Gretzky. He didn't play against scrubs either.

Would you have taken a prime Alfredsson over Perreault? I can't see why. Alfredsson was a fine player and I wouldn't mind him in the HHOF, but put Perreault's prime 1974-'80 against Alfredsson at his best.

Give Alfredsson the defensive edge, but definitely give Perreault the offensive edge. Better skater, more dangerous offensively, a player teams built around to beat more, etc. I've also always thought that Perreault's numbers, while good, never did him any justice on how great his offense truly was.

Give Perreault the edge in the postseason as well.

Lastly, think about Perreault in, say, the 1976 Canada Cup. Just watching him play the game and the way he stood out was there any time you saw Alfredsson stand out among other great players like that?
Im not saying Alfredsson is better than perrault but Aflredsson was incredible in the '06 olympics so the answer to you question is, yes, we've seen Alfredsson stand amongst great players like that.

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11-19-2011, 11:07 AM
  #49
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Or you could look at how they fared against their peers.
Perreault top 10 scoring - 3, 4, 5, 8, 9
Alfredsson top 10 scoring - 4, 7, 9

Not sure why you would take in the European invasion here. It isn't as if Perreault was winning scoring titles with Orr, Espo, Lafleur, Dionne and even Clarke in there, and at the end, Gretzky. He didn't play against scrubs either.

Would you have taken a prime Alfredsson over Perreault? I can't see why. Alfredsson was a fine player and I wouldn't mind him in the HHOF, but put Perreault's prime 1974-'80 against Alfredsson at his best.

Give Alfredsson the defensive edge, but definitely give Perreault the offensive edge. Better skater, more dangerous offensively, a player teams built around to beat more, etc. I've also always thought that Perreault's numbers, while good, never did him any justice on how great his offense truly was.

Give Perreault the edge in the postseason as well.

Lastly, think about Perreault in, say, the 1976 Canada Cup. Just watching him play the game and the way he stood out was there any time you saw Alfredsson stand out among other great players like that?
Um, you do realize that the two simple metrics I presented are ways to show how they performed against their peers, right?

Why take the euros into account? Simple. When Alfie finished 4th in scoring you could say he was the 4th highest scoring player in the world. When Perreault did it, there was a good sized handful of europeans who had a shot at outscoring him, had they been NHLers. Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Petrov, Maltsev, Martinec, and later on KLM for sure. Maybe a couple WHA scoring champs had that potential as well. So just looking at the "raw" scoring finishes only tells a small piece of the story, and cutting off 11th place seasons as though they are meaningless is counterproductive as well.

There are other factors to consider as well, I realize that. I am not here to unveil the results of a super detailed study. But you are sitting here telling us it is an absurd notion and it's not. It is easily arguable that Alfredsson makes up any small offensive edge with his defense.

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Old
11-19-2011, 03:38 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Um, you do realize that the two simple metrics I presented are ways to show how they performed against their peers, right?

Why take the euros into account? Simple. When Alfie finished 4th in scoring you could say he was the 4th highest scoring player in the world. When Perreault did it, there was a good sized handful of europeans who had a shot at outscoring him, had they been NHLers. Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Petrov, Maltsev, Martinec, and later on KLM for sure. Maybe a couple WHA scoring champs had that potential as well. So just looking at the "raw" scoring finishes only tells a small piece of the story, and cutting off 11th place seasons as though they are meaningless is counterproductive as well.

There are other factors to consider as well, I realize that. I am not here to unveil the results of a super detailed study. But you are sitting here telling us it is an absurd notion and it's not. It is easily arguable that Alfredsson makes up any small offensive edge with his defense.
I have never liked "adjusted stats" because it always goes against the player who played in a higher scoring era almost all the time. Comparing them to their peers in the scoring race is a better indication of things.

Or Hart voting helps a bit:
Perreault - 5, 7, 8, 10
Alfredsson - 5

That's quite the discrepancy there. Both players in general played on some good teams, so they would have gotten the benefit of the doubt for being on a good team and putting up good numbers. But the voters didn't seem to agree with Alfredsson in this category as much. It clearly favours Perreault here.

Plus what are we going to do now, downgrade every player prior to when there was more Europeans in the league? We can't do that, a player is a product of their own era, you can't penalize Perreault just because the Russians weren't playing in the NHL then. Last I checked there were still some very elite Hall of Famers he was competing with. The 1972 Summit Series, and the 1976 and 1981 Canada Cups are where Perreault played on the world stage. He was brilliant in all of them so it's not like he didn't stand out against the Russians then either.

Lastly, there is the eye test. Perreault passes this with flying colours. Alfredsson does fine in that department too, but if you were physically watching a game that consisted of a prime Perreault vs. Alfredsson then you probably wouldn't even need to ask who the better player was.

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