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11/9/11 - 7:30PM EDT - Philadelphia vs Tampa Bay

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Old
11-11-2011, 03:40 PM
  #401
garmonbozia
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Imagine this: A slugger steps up to the plate in a baseball game. The defense goes into an exaggerated shift in an attempt to prevent a hit. So the batter steps out and refuses to hit until the defense goes back to its normal spots. Ridiculous, right?

I don't think this analogy is good because the umpire would call "Play ball", step in behind the catcher, and play would resume regardless of whether the batter wanted to face that defense or not. It already happens occasionaly when Umps feel batters are abusing the system to throw a pitcher off.

That said, there was a situation about a decade back where Omar Vizquel refused to step into the batters box claiming Arthur Rhodes' diamond earring was an intentional distraction. If I recall correctly, they made Rhodes remove or cover the earring, but there was a good delay out of it all figuring out what to do.

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11-11-2011, 04:30 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by The Alaskan Assassin View Post
Last time I checked, this wasn't a basketball game. Here's a simple question for you. Do you think the Flyers did that because of our 1-3-1?
Sorry for not answering, yes, 110% Flyers did that because they didn't have a good response to the 1-3-1 and they were trying to bait us out of our defensive strategy. Solution.... figure out a way to attack the 1-3-1. Standing around like that is like a gladiator fight and only one has a sword but he can't figure out how to get a strike in past his opponent's shield. So instead of attacking he stands there peeking around his raised sword waiting for their unarmed opponent to drop his shield. The audience wouldn't say a thing about the guy with the shield not rushing the guy with the sword, but after a few boring minutes watching this, the guy with the sword would be fed to the lions. But that's just my opinion on competition

"When we attack, we attack. When we defend, we defend -- pack mentality," Boucher said. "So I don't want to answer to other people; we're ourselves and that's who we are and that's how I coach. I'm paid to win."

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11-11-2011, 04:51 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by newham89 View Post
Technically in soccer if a team has the ball then so rule exists where they get penalised if they just hold onto it in defense. There is a rule that the goalie can't hold the ball for over 8 seconds (I think) at a time but it is rarely enforced.
The delay of game in soccer is if an opposing player does not quickly exit the area 10-yards in front of a player about to do a free kick, or if there is a stoppage of play and a player intentionally kicks the ball far from the spot of play to cause more time to be taken to restart the play. Soccer is totally different as the clock never stops, even when play does.

But the rules stated do show that it is up to the offense, the team with the ball/puck, to not delay the game. And delay of game needs to be penalized.

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11-11-2011, 05:48 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
Philly doesnt HAVE to make a play. But they are absolutely the ones who made the mockery of the game last night by standing there with the puck. Thats the entire point. The mess created from last night is Phillys fault. And since they are the ones with possession, if they are slowing or basically stopping the flow of the game, its at the refs discretion to call a delay of game penalty.
No. Philadelphia is not delaying the game here. They're attempting to make a play they're comfortable with, and Tampa isn't applying any pressure. The puck is still in play, and Tampa can go get the puck if they want it, or they can try to force a play. It seems like they didn't want it all that bad to me. If tampa has such a problem with this, then they should go and get the puck rather than let Philly dictate the play like they did. The team with the puck has control of the game in this way.

I'm sick of hearing people say that Philly is "whining" in this situation by refusing to move the puck. Tampa is whining just as much by refusing to deviate from their system to play the puck. Both teams have a system here.

Philly was employing a strategy of waiting for the defence to check them, whereas Tampa is waiting for the offence to attack them. This is why it's a stalemate.

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11-11-2011, 06:26 PM
  #405
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For those that didn't see Former NHL Referee Kerry Fraser's response to the rules of play:

QUOTE:
i) The first time that a player abstains from advancing the puck you or I would shout at that player to move/advance the puck and if no movement results blow the whistle to conduct a face-off on the spot nearest to where play was stopped! (Rule reference: 72.1 - This would take place after no longer than 10 seconds of inactivity NOT 30 seconds.)

ii) Prior to the linesman conducting the face-off you and I would both go to the offending team's coach at his players' bench. This is what we would say, "Coach whether you hate the other team's defensive system or not they are entitled to defend however they wish so long as their players don't violate any rules while doing it. The team that has puck possession must advance the puck through continuous motion as per rule 72. Please advise your players to do so when they gain possession of the puck.

The next time (and each subsequent time) that we have to stop play because your team refuses to advance or play the puck a delay of game penalty will be assessed under rule 63! If you have any issue with this you can take it up with the League but right now this is how it is going to be. We are going to give you a moment to call your players over and advise them of our decision before we drop the puck so you can avoid a delay of game penalty if you choose.

iii) Make good on this promise if it were to recur. As the referee it is incumbent on us to enforce the current rules that are at our disposal to produce continuous action.

There is no rule in the book that dictates how a team must play defense or how they fore-check. There is a rule however that applies to the team that has puck possession.

iv) If the need results for us to assess a delay of game penalty and following that the coach protests from the bench (which I expect would happen) immediately assess a bench penalty. If the coach persists- eject him from the game!

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11-11-2011, 07:02 PM
  #406
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63.1 Delaying the Game A player or a team may be penalized when, in the opinion of the Referee, is delaying the game in any manner.

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11-11-2011, 09:03 PM
  #407
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The St Pete Times did a good article on this today. Mentioned that someone (pardon me forgot who) said the point is to score goals and someone else (again forgot who sorry haha) said no it wasn't, it was to win, whether its boring or fun or whatever. The ladder had it right, considering that it's the number of Wins that get you into the playoffs, and eventually goal differential might count.

I don't understand the hate for a system cause its boring. As a fan of the team I enjoy watching them. No one needs a delay of game penalty. If another team wants to stand in their own zone for 2 minutes, than good. Less time they have to score.

I do wonder though whats gonna happen next game.

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11-11-2011, 11:23 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Charon View Post
No. Philadelphia is not delaying the game here. They're attempting to make a play they're comfortable with, and Tampa isn't applying any pressure. The puck is still in play, and Tampa can go get the puck if they want it, or they can try to force a play. It seems like they didn't want it all that bad to me. If tampa has such a problem with this, then they should go and get the puck rather than let Philly dictate the play like they did. The team with the puck has control of the game in this way.

I'm sick of hearing people say that Philly is "whining" in this situation by refusing to move the puck. Tampa is whining just as much by refusing to deviate from their system to play the puck. Both teams have a system here.

Philly was employing a strategy of waiting for the defence to check them, whereas Tampa is waiting for the offence to attack them. This is why it's a stalemate.
Consider frequenting the Flyers forum then.

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11-11-2011, 11:36 PM
  #409
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Well, according to Milbury, the object is to score goals and we suck at the 1-3-1 anyways, so what's the problem?

I for one, would give the Lightning a standing O if another team tried that tactic rather than boo but I don't think it's going to happen again.


Last edited by TBLHoser: 11-11-2011 at 11:45 PM.
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Old
11-11-2011, 11:47 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by bladoww View Post
Consider frequenting the Flyers forum then.
Might as well check the Eagles message board too if you have the whine, I mean time....

But that's enough - time to move on....

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11-12-2011, 01:15 AM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
63.1 Delaying the Game A player or a team may be penalized when, in the opinion of the Referee, is delaying the game in any manner.
As of right now delay of game only finds application when the clock is purposely stopped from running (i.e. puck over the glass etc).

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11-13-2011, 04:49 AM
  #412
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CBC Hotstove (MacLean, Francis, Friedman, Milbury) on the 1-3-1: http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Sports/CBC.../ID=2167059945

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11-13-2011, 05:17 AM
  #413
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I honestly think that the onus is on the team with the puck to be the aggressors in a situation like the other night. The trap is kind of a gutless way to play defense, but no less gutless than standing in your zone staring at the team playing the trap. It was lame all around.

How Philadelphia should have handled it was to get all three forwards skating in a straight line at opposition players and have the D-man fire it at a defending player's feet. Lay the boom on two or three guys and you're going to start to see that hitting the line with speed is enough to create some space for you. At least enough space to receive a pass and direct it to a spot where your forecheckers have a chance to beat the last man back to it before you have someone on you. And if hitting your blue line with speed doesn't create that space for you, then your d-man just keeps passing it at his feet and you just keep laying big hits.

See how many coaches are willing to coach that kind of defensive system for 82 games. They'll have 3 forwards left come play offs.

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11-15-2011, 04:07 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I honestly think that the onus is on the team with the puck to be the aggressors in a situation like the other night. The trap is kind of a gutless way to play defense, but no less gutless than standing in your zone staring at the team playing the trap. It was lame all around.

How Philadelphia should have handled it was to get all three forwards skating in a straight line at opposition players and have the D-man fire it at a defending player's feet. Lay the boom on two or three guys and you're going to start to see that hitting the line with speed is enough to create some space for you. At least enough space to receive a pass and direct it to a spot where your forecheckers have a chance to beat the last man back to it before you have someone on you. And if hitting your blue line with speed doesn't create that space for you, then your d-man just keeps passing it at his feet and you just keep laying big hits.

See how many coaches are willing to coach that kind of defensive system for 82 games. They'll have 3 forwards left come play offs.
I agree with this guy

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Old
11-16-2011, 10:18 PM
  #415
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Interesting to hear Holmgren, the GM of the the Flyers say today that he didn't necessarily agree with the decision by Laviolette to do what he did and he had no problems with the Lightning's defensive style.

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11-17-2011, 04:28 PM
  #416
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neutral fan here people. In fact if anything I'd be cheering for Tampa over Philly (Downie is one of my favourites as is Mike Richards who I feel got a raw deal in Philly).

That being said I don't understand the demands for philly to get a penalty for delay of game. Usually infractions resulting in delay of game are for either unecessarily causing a stoppage of play or prolonging a stoppage (goalie freezing the puck well outside the crease, intntionally shooting the puck into the crowd, team taking too long during stoppages, calling for a stick review of a legal stick, player covering the puck etc) and all those things are unpreventable by the other team. Philly wasn't intentionally causing a stoppage (not sure why the officials were blowing the whistle there, both teams were okay with what was going on), and tampa easily could have prevented it, they just chose not to. I'm surprised this hasnt been brought up but Bobby Orr used to literally play keep away in his own end while killing a penalty and never got a penalty for it and in those cases the opposition attempted to get the puck.

You really can't compare it to the other sports. In baseball it's impossible for the fielding team to get points, in football its very difficult (they need to cause a turnover which is not nearly as easy as in hockey), and basketball a turnover can basically only happen with a block or interception. Those sports have rules to support their sports (play clocks to some extent).

The point's been brought up 'what if all 30 teams played 1-3-1' but just think of what would even happen if 2 teams played it against each other; 1 forward tries to gain the zone with 4 teammates behind him. He either gets the play broken up or dumps it in and doesn't chase and then his own team sets up the 1-3-1. It would be a series of turnovers and dumps, not really much more exciting than what was happening with the game in question.

As mentioned both teams could have stopped the 'festivities' but chose not to. I blame the NHL more than either team. A coaches job is strategizing to the best of his teams abilities within the rules of hockey. Thats what Guy Boucher is doing- his job. Reminds me a lot of Mike Babcock actually, he's not well known for trapping in Detroit but he did in Anaheim quite a bit. Likewise it's not like Bouchers teams play it non stop, they had a few comebacks in the playoffs last year. The style is the most boring. Watch replays of the Dallas/Vancouver playoff series in 2007 if you want to see how boring it is when 2 teams play it against each other. There's decent ideas floating around on how it should be outlawed but until the NHL does, Tampa is not in the wrong as it's bouchers job to design a system to help the team win, not be exciting. That being said if the NHL outlaws what Philly did, that just plays into the hands of the trapping team which is not good for a sport struggling for fans and ratings.

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Old
11-17-2011, 05:45 PM
  #417
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neutral fan here people. In fact if anything I'd be cheering for Tampa over Philly (Downie is one of my favourites as is Mike Richards who I feel got a raw deal in Philly).

That being said I don't understand the demands for philly to get a penalty for delay of game. Usually infractions resulting in delay of game are for either unecessarily causing a stoppage of play or prolonging a stoppage (goalie freezing the puck well outside the crease, intntionally shooting the puck into the crowd, team taking too long during stoppages, calling for a stick review of a legal stick, player covering the puck etc) and all those things are unpreventable by the other team. Philly wasn't intentionally causing a stoppage (not sure why the officials were blowing the whistle there, both teams were okay with what was going on), and tampa easily could have prevented it, they just chose not to. I'm surprised this hasnt been brought up but Bobby Orr used to literally play keep away in his own end while killing a penalty and never got a penalty for it and in those cases the opposition attempted to get the puck.

You really can't compare it to the other sports. In baseball it's impossible for the fielding team to get points, in football its very difficult (they need to cause a turnover which is not nearly as easy as in hockey), and basketball a turnover can basically only happen with a block or interception. Those sports have rules to support their sports (play clocks to some extent).

The point's been brought up 'what if all 30 teams played 1-3-1' but just think of what would even happen if 2 teams played it against each other; 1 forward tries to gain the zone with 4 teammates behind him. He either gets the play broken up or dumps it in and doesn't chase and then his own team sets up the 1-3-1. It would be a series of turnovers and dumps, not really much more exciting than what was happening with the game in question.

As mentioned both teams could have stopped the 'festivities' but chose not to. I blame the NHL more than either team. A coaches job is strategizing to the best of his teams abilities within the rules of hockey. Thats what Guy Boucher is doing- his job. Reminds me a lot of Mike Babcock actually, he's not well known for trapping in Detroit but he did in Anaheim quite a bit. Likewise it's not like Bouchers teams play it non stop, they had a few comebacks in the playoffs last year. The style is the most boring. Watch replays of the Dallas/Vancouver playoff series in 2007 if you want to see how boring it is when 2 teams play it against each other. There's decent ideas floating around on how it should be outlawed but until the NHL does, Tampa is not in the wrong as it's bouchers job to design a system to help the team win, not be exciting. That being said if the NHL outlaws what Philly did, that just plays into the hands of the trapping team which is not good for a sport struggling for fans and ratings.
What people are too dense to understand, too, is that there is nothing boring about the way we play. This isn't mid 90s NJ trapping with the holding and interference and all that, we play an uptempo style that just generates a ******** of neutral zone turnovers. Its not like we're last in scoring or anything.

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11-17-2011, 06:06 PM
  #418
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Why Won't This Just Die

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11-17-2011, 06:13 PM
  #419
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It's dead now. Let's move on.

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