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Carter requesting trade from CBJ

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Old
11-18-2011, 10:12 AM
  #51
WeekendAtBernies
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
What our organization did to carter was ******
It's about the logo on the front of the jersey... not the name on the back.

Homer made a ballsy move that I think everyone can now agree will make us better in the long run... or at least it looks that way.

The players and the players' agents look out for the welfare of the individuals. Our GM's job is to look out for the welfare of the team... not Jeff Carter.

Homer got a good offer for him, saw that it wasn't working out w/ Carter, and he pulled the trigger.

It's as simple as that.

When Carter signed that long term deal, I'm sure he felt as though he was going to retire a Flyer. We definitely didn't live up to our end of the deal there.

BUT....

When Homer signed Carter to that long term deal, I'm sure he felt as though Carter was going to be a leader for the team and was going to put his priorities in order... especially during the crucial playoff games. But Carter definitely didn't live up to his end of the deal here... partying nights before games, providing no leadership, etc.

The key thing is that Carter violated Homer's trust before Homer violated Carter's. Carter being shipped out of town was a direct result of Carter's own actions. And if you honestly feel sorry for him, then maybe you care more about Carter than you do about the Flyers.

And btw, it's not like we traded Carter to some terrible team. If CBJ thought they were so bad, why would they trade so many young players for a C in his prime? They obviously thought they could win w/ Carter and I agree... they are 1-2 pieces away from being a playoff contender.

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Old
11-18-2011, 10:15 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
It's about the logo on the front of the jersey... not the name on the back.

Homer made a ballsy move that I think everyone can now agree will make us better in the long run... or at least it looks that way.

The players and the players' agents look out for the welfare of the individuals. Our GM's job is to look out for the welfare of the team... not Jeff Carter.

Homer got a good offer for him, saw that it wasn't working out w/ Carter, and he pulled the trigger.

It's as simple as that.

When Carter signed that long term deal, I'm sure he felt as though he was going to retire a Flyer. We definitely didn't live up to our end of the deal there.

BUT....

When Homer signed Carter to that long term deal, I'm sure he felt as though Carter was going to be a leader for the team and was going to put his priorities in order... especially during the crucial playoff games. But Carter definitely didn't live up to his end of the deal here... partying nights before games, providing no leadership, etc.

The key thing is that Carter violated Homer's trust before Homer violated Carter's. Carter being shipped out of town was a direct result of Carter's own actions. And if you honestly feel sorry for him, then maybe you care more about Carter than you do about the Flyers.

And btw, it's not like we traded Carter to some terrible team. If CBJ thought they were so bad, why would they trade so many young players for a C in his prime? They obviously thought they could win w/ Carter and I agree... they are 1-2 pieces away from being a playoff contender.
Yeah, a goalie and a coach...

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Old
11-18-2011, 10:18 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Unstable View Post
Yeah, a goalie and a coach...
I would add that they need an entirely new scouting staff..they have had the vision of Stevie Wonder...horrible!

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Old
11-18-2011, 10:24 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by ORYX View Post
Explain to me how we are missing Carter when we have more goals a game this year, and a higher goal differential, with a much improved goaltending?

Faceoffs? Sure we are losing in that regard, but how has that stopped the team, considering they have played to 11-4-3 with the one of the leagues worst face-off %'s. And that can't even be placed on Carter, with Richards and Betts also out.

Present to me some stats and facts about how this team misses Carter aside from your 'feelings' about how he was treated.


And don't bother bringing his size into this, because aside from the centers, this team is bigger, stronger and faster then last years, and the centers are having no trouble holdering their own size wise.

So the management over the past 35 years is how you are judging these deals? No **** you don't have any faith. Homer has made some bad moves in his time, but are the ones previous to his tenour his fault? Not at all.

Can you not give credit where it is due? This team has good goaltending, a solid forward core and a good defense. Whats the problem? Sounds to me like your 'feelings' about the Carter trade have alot more to do with other transactions and transgretions then the deal itself....
No offense, but you really aren't worth the time. It's been discussed around here tons how our team defense as a whole has looked incredibly shaky (specifically the forwards). If you truly need someone to explain why our best goalscorer who was a good two-way forward is missed, then you need to get out some video clips of Carter. We got a good return for him most definitely, but Richards and Carter leaving this team has had a large part to do with the team's shortcomings this year.

It's one thing to try and say he wasn't screwed, but you're going off the deep end acting as if the departure of Carter didn't affect this team. Calling Carter a big man, two-way forward, gifted goalscorer is not calling him Jesus or overrating him...that's what he was. That's why we got the significant return, you're the one incredibly underrating his value here.

It's not as simple as "Well he's gone, and we're doing decently right now, it must mean he's not missed". Though all of your arguments seem to be that simplistic in nature.

If anyone here is being blinded simply by feelings rather than a forwards actual worth/contribution, it would be you with your blind "faith" as you put it.

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Old
11-18-2011, 10:25 AM
  #55
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While it sucks he got traded to Columbus, it is still a business. I don't understand how people are upset at Holmgren. Obviously, Holmgren did not think having Carter around for 11 years was going to bring a lot of success. He made the best decision he could for the organization(his job). I'd rather have Couturier and Voracek than a lesser package just so Carter can be happy. If Carter did in fact ask to be traded, than he is going to give himself an awful reputation. As if the dressing room problems didn't bring up enough questions about his personality/ego, this definitely would confirm it. He's been there for a quarter of a season.

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Old
11-18-2011, 10:26 AM
  #56
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I actually do feel somewhat bad for Carter. He went from a team and a city that he liked, to an organization that is in the toilet. But in the same breath, this league is a business and if a team has to move a guy because of a certain reason, then they have to do it. I doubt the carter move was personal at all, they just saw an opportunity to make a change in atmosphere and took it.

I just hope carter doesn't end up back in the east. That would definitely give him the motivation needed to torch us.

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Old
11-18-2011, 10:28 AM
  #57
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Conspiracy theory : Perhaps the Flyers signed him to a long term deal knowing it would increase his trade value to a small market team that struggles to sign free agents. If so, great move. Nefarious but great. I will take Couturier, Voracek, and Cousins for Carter any day, especially with Couturier looking like he could be the best player in the deal. As for Carter, who cares. He ain't a flyer anymore.

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Old
11-18-2011, 10:29 AM
  #58
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We definitely do miss Carter on the defensive side of the game. However, that team proved they could play without him anyway. As good as he was/is, he was never leading the team to anything. He was out for a good portion of the 2010 playoffs and when he came back, although injured, wasn't very effective. The excuses kept building up with Carter. Richards had his fair share of issues as well, but at least he performed on the ice.

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Old
11-18-2011, 10:30 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Unstable View Post
Yeah, a goalie and a coach...
It wouldnt be the Flyers without firing their coach every two years.

But anyway, I cant tell if its sarcasm or not . If it isnt well, I disagree lol. If it is well, put the smilie up next time

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Old
11-18-2011, 10:33 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
It wouldnt be the Flyers without firing their coach every two years.

But anyway, I cant tell if its sarcasm or not . If it isnt well, I disagree lol. If it is well, put the smilie up next time
Can't tell if you are being sarcastic? Actually he was responding to the poster that said Columbus was two pieces away from being a contender. I think they need much more...

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Old
11-18-2011, 10:36 AM
  #61
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Can't tell if you are being sarcastic? Actually he was responding to the poster that said Columbus was two pieces away from being a contender. I think they need much more...
A healthy Crosby and Weber maybe.

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Old
11-18-2011, 10:57 AM
  #62
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lol....thnak god this primadona is gone

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Old
11-18-2011, 11:28 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
Conspiracy theory : Perhaps the Flyers signed him to a long term deal knowing it would increase his trade value to a small market team that struggles to sign free agents. If so, great move. Nefarious but great. I will take Couturier, Voracek, and Cousins for Carter any day, especially with Couturier looking like he could be the best player in the deal. As for Carter, who cares. He ain't a flyer anymore.
No, I think they gave him the contract hoping that he and Richards would shape up and they didn't.

In every comment Homer, Lavy or Snider make this year, and in many by Pronger, Kimmo etc. it's there. Little digs about the team being prepared, in shape, dedicated.

It's sad, but we really seem better off without the pair of them, as unlikely as they may have seemed on June 22.

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Old
11-18-2011, 11:36 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post

BUT....

When Homer signed Carter to that long term deal, I'm sure he felt as though Carter was going to be a leader for the team and was going to put his priorities in order... especially during the crucial playoff games. But Carter definitely didn't live up to his end of the deal here... partying nights before games, providing no leadership, etc.

The key thing is that Carter violated Homer's trust before Homer violated Carter's. Carter being shipped out of town was a direct result of Carter's own actions. And if you honestly feel sorry for him, then maybe you care more about Carter than you do about the Flyers.

And btw, it's not like we traded Carter to some terrible team. If CBJ thought they were so bad, why would they trade so many young players for a C in his prime? They obviously thought they could win w/ Carter and I agree... they are 1-2 pieces away from being a playoff contender.
I'm sorry but this is total BS.

So Homer signed Carter with a certain expectation of him, and then 6 months later, he managed to completely erase the reputation he had built up over the past 6 years? You're telling me, the 6 months after he signed the deal, weighed heavier than the previous 6 years?

And enough with the partying BS! "Partying nights before games"? How the eff do you know that? In an article Bob did last year he specifically said that the biggest difference between NHL and KHL is that nobody shows up hung over. Stop buying into the media kool aid. Yes Carter and Richards trolled the city and the shore and slayed tons of chicks, that doesn't mean you can just go and make the conclusion he was partying before games.

There is no massive conspiracy here surrounding off-ice this, and leadership that. Homer decided it wasn't working, and made 2 deals, before his players NTC kicked in. That's that. If he didn't do it then he was NEVER going to be able to do it.

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Old
11-18-2011, 11:45 AM
  #65
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Bar scene not up to snuff in C-Bus?

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Old
11-18-2011, 11:49 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by decadentia View Post
No offense, but you really aren't worth the time. It's been discussed around here tons how our team defense as a whole has looked incredibly shaky (specifically the forwards). If you truly need someone to explain why our best goalscorer who was a good two-way forward is missed, then you need to get out some video clips of Carter. We got a good return for him most definitely, but Richards and Carter leaving this team has had a large part to do with the team's shortcomings this year.

It's one thing to try and say he wasn't screwed, but you're going off the deep end acting as if the departure of Carter didn't affect this team. Calling Carter a big man, two-way forward, gifted goalscorer is not calling him Jesus or overrating him...that's what he was. That's why we got the significant return, you're the one incredibly underrating his value here.

It's not as simple as "Well he's gone, and we're doing decently right now, it must mean he's not missed". Though all of your arguments seem to be that simplistic in nature.

If anyone here is being blinded simply by feelings rather than a forwards actual worth/contribution, it would be you with your blind "faith" as you put it.
A) I never said or implied that Carter is not talented. Of course he is, I'm not an idiot. I've watched him in Junior and with the Flyers. But looking at old goals and then saying the team could use him, when goal scoring is not an issue is redundent. The flyers lack players with similar two-way games to Carters no dobut, but I feel collectively, especially in the last 2 weeks or so, and the beginning of the season, the two-way game hasn't suffered. Add Carter into the mix, and I don't think it is noticably better to justify saying the team ****ed him over.

B) We arent talking about Mike Richards, we're talking about how you think the team screwed Jeff Carter, and how I think Jeff Carter screwed himself.

C) I'm not saying it didnt affect this team, but you can't argue with their current success. You can't argue that his 46 goals three years ago are missed, they arent. the team has better offensive stats now, then when he was here.

D) You are calling my arguments simplistic, yet the only arguement I am getting from you is beating around the bush. You took an argument that was about whether or not the organization screwed Carter or not, and turned it into a "the team would be better off with him in the line-up" argument.

ANY move you make when it involves a great young player like Carter will leave voids. But IMO the players acquired in the deal are doing a fine job as it stands and will continue to improve. OVERALL, the team is achieving success. While we don;t know if they would be more or less successful with Carter, you cannot discount what they are doing without him.

We could have arguments about how the team could be better with all the players that left this offseason on the roster, but the fact of the matter is they arent here, and success so far is being achieved.

As for faith in the club, I believe the moves made this off season have made the team stronger. Mike Richards is my favourite player in the league, has been since I watched him develop in Kitchener. Was I upset he left? Yes. That doesnt mean I can't acknowledge that it was a good trade for the team. Same goes for Carter. It was a good trade for the team, and it has proven to have been a successful trade.

It's quite obvious that Homer can do no good in your eyes if you can't acknowledge a good trade and use the past 35 years franchise history as your backing behind a lack of faith.

Its 2011, who the hell cares what happened in 1991, or whenever the hell it happened. Be a realist, work with what you have and move on, the team certainly is and they havent lost a beat.

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Old
11-18-2011, 11:52 AM
  #67
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Funny thing is, I suspect Columbus is in our divison next year. It is possible.

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Old
11-18-2011, 12:02 PM
  #68
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Apparently his agent and Nashville's GM are denying he asked for a trade. I guess we find out which is the case when he does or does not get traded.

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Old
11-18-2011, 12:18 PM
  #69
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Apparently his agent and Nashville's GM are denying he asked for a trade. I guess we find out which is the case when he does or does not get traded.
Hmm, fishy.

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Old
11-18-2011, 12:19 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by decadentia View Post
We got some real Homers for Homer around here these days.
yes, god forbid we support our GM who had the team dumped in his lap during our worst season as a franchise, and took us to the ECF with a patchworked team the next season. We've got a good goalie now, and a rebuilt farm system, and draft picks, and players groomed through the system, and excellent veteran players. We contend every season. His bonehead moves don't usually bite us in the ass. What are his biggest issues? I couple of questionable trades/signings and lack of CBA/Cap knowledge? Yet we contend every year. Shame on him.

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Old
11-18-2011, 12:20 PM
  #71
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Hahaha, oops. Columbus? What team does he play for? He plays with Weber and Datsyuk, right?

I don't follow the West, it's just one giant team to me.

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Old
11-18-2011, 12:20 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
It's about the logo on the front of the jersey... not the name on the back.

Homer made a ballsy move that I think everyone can now agree will make us better in the long run... or at least it looks that way.

The players and the players' agents look out for the welfare of the individuals. Our GM's job is to look out for the welfare of the team... not Jeff Carter.

Homer got a good offer for him, saw that it wasn't working out w/ Carter, and he pulled the trigger.

It's as simple as that.

When Carter signed that long term deal, I'm sure he felt as though he was going to retire a Flyer. We definitely didn't live up to our end of the deal there.

BUT....

When Homer signed Carter to that long term deal, I'm sure he felt as though Carter was going to be a leader for the team and was going to put his priorities in order... especially during the crucial playoff games. But Carter definitely didn't live up to his end of the deal here... partying nights before games, providing no leadership, etc.

The key thing is that Carter violated Homer's trust before Homer violated Carter's. Carter being shipped out of town was a direct result of Carter's own actions. And if you honestly feel sorry for him, then maybe you care more about Carter than you do about the Flyers.


And btw, it's not like we traded Carter to some terrible team. If CBJ thought they were so bad, why would they trade so many young players for a C in his prime? They obviously thought they could win w/ Carter and I agree... they are 1-2 pieces away from being a playoff contender.
Allegedly.

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Old
11-18-2011, 12:27 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker
Actually, what you just described is good business.

Why are you so dead set against thinking any of the outcome was Carter's responsibility? The way you describe things makes it seem as though you feel the Flyers don't care about the team/business, and traded Carter just to get their rocks off.
You think signing guys to 11 year extensions then trading them before they kick in is good business for having players agree to contracts in the future, and on terms favorable to the club? If so, i'm glad you aren't running my business

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHockey1982
I see what you are saying about screwing over Carter and I agree with you that it sends a bad impression to others to sign with us in the future. However, since we are in first place in the east and Columbus is in last overall, please explain to me how we are BADLY missing Carter? I don't see it. I don't miss him. All I care about is winning and until we aren't winning then I won't miss him. I probably won't miss him even if we are losing.

Players come and go and you've gotta get over the fact that he's no longer on the team. Just like Gagne, Lindros, Richards, and any other player that's been traded from the team.
This team has played EIGHTEEN games. There also have been glaring warning signs that the teams defensive play is going to be an issue. Also, they have looked good at times and putrid at times. Not exactly lighting the world on fire.

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Originally Posted by ORYX
Explain to me how we are missing Carter when we have more goals a game this year, and a higher goal differential, with a much improved goaltending?

Faceoffs? Sure we are losing in that regard, but how has that stopped the team, considering they have played to 11-4-3 with the one of the leagues worst face-off %'s. And that can't even be placed on Carter, with Richards and Betts also out.

Present to me some stats and facts about how this team misses Carter aside from your 'feelings' about how he was treated.
They are 11-7 through 18 games. That's really enough to declare victory already? Slow down there ace.

You've already answered part of your own quesiton with faceoffs.

How about defensively? This team has exactly zero centers that can match up with the league's elite offensive players. The Flyers got toasted by Washington, and have not even seen Pittsburgh yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ORYX
And don't bother bringing his size into this, because aside from the centers, this team is bigger, stronger and faster then last years, and the centers are having no trouble holdering their own size wise.
Wingers are bigger and stronger and faster. Why is it irrelevant that the centers have no size? Because you say so? There is a lot of logic behind why having some size at C is important.

They haven't ran into many issues yet because they have hardly played the real threats in the league. Theyve played Boston, Washington, Tampa, and Buffalo once each, and are 2-2 there. I'm not impressed one bit that they can beat up on Columbus, Winnipeg, Ottawa, and Carolina.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ORYX
So the management over the past 35 years is how you are judging these deals? No **** you don't have any faith. Homer has made some bad moves in his time, but are the ones previous to his tenour his fault? Not at all.

Can you not give credit where it is due? This team has good goaltending, a solid forward core and a good defense. Whats the problem? Sounds to me like your 'feelings' about the Carter trade have alot more to do with other transactions and transgretions then the deal itself....
You don't see any problems with the roster? Thats your perogative then, and you are wearing orange glasses.

I never said I didnt like the roster or thought it was horrible. I'm not a fan of the Carter deal for multiple reasons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unstable
Except for more games and more playoff games than any organization in the NHL not located in Quebec.

I don't dispute that the Cup is the big prize, but as a fan watching 82+ games a year, putting a consistently competitive product on the ice is the most important thing. And thats (almost) all management. And the Flyers are among the best of the best.
And yet we've seen over the recent years good teams constructed poorly and left with gaping holes. We could have had a cup 2 years ago with some logical management of the roster, instead of going to battle with turds in net.

Further, last year we had a team on a cup run hangover light the world on fire for half the season, with yet again a hole in net. So instead of plug the holes the roster is blown to pieces. That's dumb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd
It's about the logo on the front of the jersey... not the name on the back.
... OK? Wheres the relevance in this comment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd
Homer made a ballsy move that I think everyone can now agree will make us better in the long run... or at least it looks that way.
Quite clearly not, as there are lots of people that dont think that at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd
The players and the players' agents look out for the welfare of the individuals. Our GM's job is to look out for the welfare of the team... not Jeff Carter.
Yep, and its not clear at all this benefitted the team in any way, it may have hurt their negotiating power down the road, and in the midst of it all they did a crappy thing to a guy that was very good to the organization. Bang up job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd
Homer got a good offer for him, saw that it wasn't working out w/ Carter, and he pulled the trigger.

It's as simple as that.

When Carter signed that long term deal, I'm sure he felt as though he was going to retire a Flyer. We definitely didn't live up to our end of the deal there.

BUT....

When Homer signed Carter to that long term deal, I'm sure he felt as though Carter was going to be a leader for the team and was going to put his priorities in order... especially during the crucial playoff games. But Carter definitely didn't live up to his end of the deal here... partying nights before games, providing no leadership, etc.


The key thing is that Carter violated Homer's trust before Homer violated Carter's. Carter being shipped out of town was a direct result of Carter's own actions. And if you honestly feel sorry for him, then maybe you care more about Carter than you do about the Flyers.

That's all speculation and actually been denied by Homer himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd
And btw, it's not like we traded Carter to some terrible team. If CBJ thought they were so bad, why would they trade so many young players for a C in his prime? They obviously thought they could win w/ Carter and I agree... they are 1-2 pieces away from being a playoff contender.
if CBJ isn't a terrible team, then I wonder what do you consider one? This point is irrelevant anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44
No, I think they gave him the contract hoping that he and Richards would shape up and they didn't.

In every comment Homer, Lavy or Snider make this year, and in many by Pronger, Kimmo etc. it's there. Little digs about the team being prepared, in shape, dedicated.

It's sad, but we really seem better off without the pair of them, as unlikely as they may have seemed on June 22.
They signed him to an 11 year deal in HOPES that he changed the behavoir that you alledge they didnt like? You don't see the insanity in that statement? If thats the case Holmgren should have been fired on spot for even considering offering such a massive and potential albatross contract to a guy who is anything but what you want in a player

Further, theres no proof whatsoever that Carter acted differently in any way between the date of the contract and his trade than he did the rest of his time in this organization, which was quite a long time

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11-18-2011, 12:29 PM
  #74
flyersfan018
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I'd love for someone to say the Carter trade wasn't a good one. In that case, who gives a **** about Carter's feelings? It's a job. He didn't have a NTC so therefore Homer can move whoever he wants to improve the team.

Homer improved the team and that's all that matters. I couldn't care less that poor Carter's feelings were hurt.

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11-18-2011, 12:36 PM
  #75
Hockeypete49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coutsiephan View Post
If true then it doesn't surprise me and I had mentioned in many a thread over the summer when the trade went down that he probably would want to leave before too long. Character guy.....when the going gets tough...Carter wants to split. While I can understand his displeasure I think it shows a lack of professionalism and a sense of privilege. Nash has more of gripe considering he's tried to stick through it all and has done what he could. I feel more for him then I do Carter who wants to bail after a dozen games and who has contributed pretty much nothing himself other than showing he's injury prone and may have a chronically bad foot. It may be a crappy situation there but I don't find his attitude very redeeming. Once again glad the drama is elsewhere.
.

Haters going to Hate!!. You are basing your statement on two things.

1. It is a rumor not a fact.

2. We know your true feelings about Jeff.

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