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Old
11-18-2011, 01:37 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
Allegedly.
As alleged by posters on the internet with no inside knowledge and TMZ's sports section, AKA the Philly media.

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Old
11-18-2011, 01:37 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by flyersfan018 View Post
I'd love for someone to say the Carter trade wasn't a good one. In that case, who gives a **** about Carter's feelings? It's a job. He didn't have a NTC so therefore Homer can move whoever he wants to improve the team.

Homer improved the team and that's all that matters. I couldn't care less that poor Carter's feelings were hurt.
That is a big AMEN!!!!

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Old
11-18-2011, 01:38 PM
  #78
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Get paid millions of dollars to play hockey...Suck it up. All professional athletes are overpaid. Can't sympathize for them.

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11-18-2011, 01:39 PM
  #79
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I'm still waiting for the second half of the season to decide whether this team is any better (for this season at least). They've certainly been inconsistent as hell so far this year, and they haven't been terribly impressive against good teams. They were an embarassment against Washington.

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11-18-2011, 01:49 PM
  #80
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Jesus, I can't tell who is worse, Carter or his loyal supporters.

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11-18-2011, 01:57 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I'm sorry but this is total BS.

So Homer signed Carter with a certain expectation of him, and then 6 months later, he managed to completely erase the reputation he had built up over the past 6 years? You're telling me, the 6 months after he signed the deal, weighed heavier than the previous 6 years?

And enough with the partying BS! "Partying nights before games"? How the eff do you know that? In an article Bob did last year he specifically said that the biggest difference between NHL and KHL is that nobody shows up hung over. Stop buying into the media kool aid. Yes Carter and Richards trolled the city and the shore and slayed tons of chicks, that doesn't mean you can just go and make the conclusion he was partying before games.

There is no massive conspiracy here surrounding off-ice this, and leadership that. Homer decided it wasn't working, and made 2 deals, before his players NTC kicked in. That's that. If he didn't do it then he was NEVER going to be able to do it.
I really dont buy into the whole partying nonsense either. Young men are going to party, the fact that they are pro athletes and make millions every year only enhances their ability to party it up.

I do disagree about the ruining of ones reputation in a 6 month period versus the 6 years to build it. I dont claim to know what Holmgren/Carter were thinking/doing, but to trade a player of Carter's caliber (especially considering his cap hit) tells me that something else was going on.

BringStevensBack - "You think signing guys to 11 year extensions then trading them before they kick in is good business for having players agree to contracts in the future, and on terms favorable to the club? If so, i'm glad you aren't running my business"

I think that getting rid of a negative and obtaining as much value as possible is good business. You're the opposite of Cartsiefan, but just as unreasonable due to your blind allegiance to Jeff Carter.

Id love to get shafted by being guaranteed a $5mill+ salary for the next decade.

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Old
11-18-2011, 02:04 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
.

Haters going to Hate!!. You are basing your statement on two things.

1. It is a rumor not a fact.

2. We know your true feelings about Jeff.
Um did you read my other posts? Obviously not.

We know your agenda..pulling things out of context.

I never liked Carter for various reasons and I don't have to apologize for those reasons. However, I always provided my reasons for trading him and that was for purely hockey/business reasons and to leverage him exactly like we did..so don't give your childish dishonest BS....

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11-18-2011, 02:06 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
I really dont buy into the whole partying nonsense either. Young men are going to party, the fact that they are pro athletes and make millions every year only enhances their ability to party it up.

I do disagree about the ruining of ones reputation in a 6 month period versus the 6 years to build it. I dont claim to know what Holmgren/Carter were thinking/doing, but to trade a player of Carter's caliber (especially considering his cap hit) tells me that something else was going on.

BringStevensBack - "You think signing guys to 11 year extensions then trading them before they kick in is good business for having players agree to contracts in the future, and on terms favorable to the club? If so, i'm glad you aren't running my business"

I think that getting rid of a negative and obtaining as much value as possible is good business. You're the opposite of Cartsiefan, but just as unreasonable due to your blind allegiance to Jeff Carter.

Id love to get shafted by being guaranteed a $5mill+ salary for the next decade.
Exactly, all rich young kids party. People really have no idea what the Flyers of the 70s were like. They wore a god damned patch or sticker or something (I forget what exactly) when THEIR bar burned down. THEY HAD THEIR OWN BAR! Get over it people. They are professionals.

I don't agree about "something going on". I really think that after another early exit Homer had a decision to make. If I keep them now, they stay forever (NTC), or I can move them now, re-stock, and hand it over to Giroux. I think he opted for the latter.

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Old
11-18-2011, 02:07 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by ORYX View Post
A) I never said or implied that Carter is not talented. Of course he is, I'm not an idiot. I've watched him in Junior and with the Flyers. But looking at old goals and then saying the team could use him, when goal scoring is not an issue is redundent. The flyers lack players with similar two-way games to Carters no dobut, but I feel collectively, especially in the last 2 weeks or so, and the beginning of the season, the two-way game hasn't suffered. Add Carter into the mix, and I don't think it is noticably better to justify saying the team ****ed him over.
It's currently not an issue, though their current pace for goalscoring is likely not going to continue. But yeah...why would the organization want to score more goals...it's redundant? As for the last sentence, those are two completely unrelated things...and I don't see how either applies to one another o.O .

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B) We arent talking about Mike Richards, we're talking about how you think the team screwed Jeff Carter, and how I think Jeff Carter screwed himself.
They were traded together, I said that so you didn't jump on me for implying our team defense was solely on his shoulders when he left. Apparently i'm damned if I do or don't.

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C) I'm not saying it didnt affect this team, but you can't argue with their current success. You can't argue that his 46 goals three years ago are missed, they arent. the team has better offensive stats now, then when he was here.
Their current success? Have you been watching this season? We've been incredibly inconsistent, we've been scoring mostly on a 4 goals per game pace, that won't continue, and when it doesn't...our defense game is going to be exposed more so than it is. And yes I can argue our highest goalscorer we had is missed, quite easily, it baffles me that in your mind...well we're currently ok, we wouldn't be better off with 36+ more goals this season. We have better offensive stats? So you compared exactly this time last year to now? You're talking out of your ass. Even if that's true, our overall game is far worse.

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D) You are calling my arguments simplistic, yet the only arguement I am getting from you is beating around the bush. You took an argument that was about whether or not the organization screwed Carter or not, and turned it into a "the team would be better off with him in the line-up" argument.
Actually no...this was your can of worms, read my first post to yours, absolutely nothing about it...then you said this...but nice try.

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3. Big center, good two way game. We arent really missing him are we? With the exception of face-offs that is, he would be a big help there no doubt.
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ANY move you make when it involves a great young player like Carter will leave voids. But IMO the players acquired in the deal are doing a fine job as it stands and will continue to improve. OVERALL, the team is achieving success. While we don;t know if they would be more or less successful with Carter, you cannot discount what they are doing without him.
It's November.

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We could have arguments about how the team could be better with all the players that left this offseason on the roster, but the fact of the matter is they arent here, and success so far is being achieved.
Uh...redundant..next.

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As for faith in the club, I believe the moves made this off season have made the team stronger. Mike Richards is my favourite player in the league, has been since I watched him develop in Kitchener. Was I upset he left? Yes. That doesnt mean I can't acknowledge that it was a good trade for the team. Same goes for Carter. It was a good trade for the team, and it has proven to have been a successful trade.
It's November, no it hasn't proven to be a successful trade. We won't know if it was a "successful" trade until the actual players we received in the trades pan out. There's certainly the possibility we won the trade, I wouldn't make that argument, nor have I been trying. Again if you can't realize this, you are introducing all of these new arguments. When you make stupid comments like "Carter isn't missed", people jump on it, and you seem to try and twist the argument into something new every time.

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It's quite obvious that Homer can do no good in your eyes if you can't acknowledge a good trade and use the past 35 years franchise history as your backing behind a lack of faith.
Maybe if you actually read a single thing I wrote, you'd realize I did?

Once again, you brought the trade argument facet to all of this I'd like to remind you but...here's a quote from me in this very thread...don't accuse me of something you have no clue about please. I've posted in quite a few threads on on the main boards about how we got a very good return for Carter and have before...

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Originally Posted by decadentia View Post
We got a good return for him most definitely, but Richards and Carter leaving this team has had a large part to do with the team's shortcomings this year.
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Originally Posted by ORYX View Post
Its 2011, who the hell cares what happened in 1991, or whenever the hell it happened. Be a realist, work with what you have and move on, the team certainly is and they havent lost a beat.
Once again, can you not see you are the one making all these arguments about the trades, who is currently here etc? This all started from someone saying Carter got screwed, I specifically commented about that and your claim that Carter isn't missed. Maybe re-read the thread before you make the claims that others opened this can of worms.


Last edited by decadentia: 11-18-2011 at 02:12 PM.
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Old
11-18-2011, 02:08 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
I really dont buy into the whole partying nonsense either. Young men are going to party, the fact that they are pro athletes and make millions every year only enhances their ability to party it up.

I do disagree about the ruining of ones reputation in a 6 month period versus the 6 years to build it. I dont claim to know what Holmgren/Carter were thinking/doing, but to trade a player of Carter's caliber (especially considering his cap hit) tells me that something else was going on.

BringStevensBack - "You think signing guys to 11 year extensions then trading them before they kick in is good business for having players agree to contracts in the future, and on terms favorable to the club? If so, i'm glad you aren't running my business"

I think that getting rid of a negative and obtaining as much value as possible is good business. You're the opposite of Cartsiefan, but just as unreasonable due to your blind allegiance to Jeff Carter.

Id love to get shafted by being guaranteed a $5mill+ salary for the next decade.
No one is able to demonstrate how carter was a negative without pointing to unbacked allegations.

And what part of my argument is blindly loyal to carter? Not a single point I've made has been refuted with anything resembling a logical argument.

I'm not saying that Carter's life is ruined, I'm simply stating that taking all of the circumstances into account the trade was a dick move. Additionally, I think it's bad business to set an image around the league that we'll sign contracts like this one and then go back on good faith negotiations like that

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Old
11-18-2011, 02:18 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by BleedOrange View Post
Get paid millions of dollars to play hockey...Suck it up. All professional athletes are overpaid. Can't sympathize for them.
So the **** what. Money isn't the goal or the priority. Winning is. If you're in a place where its not happening or looks like it wont happen for the 10 years of your contract then that's ****ing terrible for an athlete. Who gives a **** about your paycheck. I wouldn't care if I was making 4.5 million or whatever. I'm stuck in last place, in ****ing Columbus. I'd want out too. If you're money is suppose to satisfy you then you have a ****** drive to be a winning athlete.

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11-18-2011, 02:52 PM
  #87
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Jeff Carter, Rick Nash still going down with the Columbus Titanic

An update

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Watching the Columbus Blue Jackets against the Boston Bruins on Thursday night was like watching the scrawny kid get up with the bases loaded and two outs in the final inning of a Little League game.

Curtis Sanford's(notes) outstanding goaltending — see, this phrase and "Blue Jackets" aren't mutually exclusive after all — kept them tied through regulation and overtime. In the shootout, you couldn't help but feel like, "C'mon, little buddy, you don't even have to swing … just walk with the bases loaded!"

Instead, the Blue Jackets grounded out to the pitcher.

Such is life for the 3-13-2 Jackets, whose eight points remain the lowest in professional hockey in the U.S. through 18 games. No, seriously: Check out the AHL and the ECHL standings — Columbus is the worst pro hockey team, based on their record, in the nation.

So it's natural that some players would have a desire to jump ship; however, you just wouldn't expect it to be a guy who joined the team in the summer and is signed through 2022.

Which is why the hockey world was buzzing about a Jeff Carter(notes) trade request last night.

There were rumblings about it during the day, and then RDS published a story title that translated as "Carter Wants To Leave Already Columbus." TSN's Bob McKenzie, in the same media familiar as RDS, tossed a little fuel on the fire later one:

For those asking about reports of Jeff Carter requesting trade out of CBJ, here's my understanding: There has been no formal request BUT Carter was devastated/miserable at being traded out of PHI and I don't imagine CBJ's poor start and his injury have improved mindset. My take: Carter needs to play and play well. CBJ, same thing. Then take stock of where they're at further down the road. But that's just me.

Well, GM Scott Howson had to finally address the rumblings, and did so with Aaron Portzline of Puck-Rakers this morning:

"There has been no trade request," Howson said.

Asked if Carter or his agent, Rick Curran, had even intimated that the player would welcome a move, Howson said: "No. Not at all."

"Look, nobody's happy right now. Jeff's not happy. Rick (Nash) isn't happy. We've won three games. Nobody's happy. We see Jeff as part of the solution here. We want to get him integrated into the lineup and into the team. He's missed 10 games, and he's only now getting back into the lineup and playing. We gave up two very big assets for him."


http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puc...p17721&print=1

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Old
11-18-2011, 02:53 PM
  #88
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He knew when his NTC was about to kick in. Could've just act like he was a good kid until this July and then start playing lazy and partying every other night.

Don't play up to your contract, get dumped to a garbage can like Redden and Souray and Walker and others to AHL... or like in this case: Carter to CLB.

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Old
11-18-2011, 03:13 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by CptCannon View Post
He knew when his NTC was about to kick in. Could've just act like he was a good kid until this July and then start playing lazy and partying every other night.

Don't play up to your contract, get dumped to a garbage can like Redden and Souray and Walker and others to AHL... or like in this case: Carter to CLB.
How exactly didn't he play up to his contract?

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11-18-2011, 03:27 PM
  #90
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Id love to get shafted by being guaranteed a $5mill+ salary for the next decade.
what's great about this type of stuff is how it completely ignores reality. Carter was getting paid no matter what. Either in Philly, or another city of his choosing. that last part is a big deal, the Flyers essentially robbed him of control over his life for a decade by the actions they took.

It never ceases to amaze how people stop viewing athletes as normal human beings just because they're wealthy. It would be one thing if Carter was signed to a normal contract, but this is a completely different scenario.

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11-18-2011, 03:36 PM
  #91
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I don't agree about "something going on". I really think that after another early exit Homer had a decision to make. If I keep them now, they stay forever (NTC), or I can move them now, re-stock, and hand it over to Giroux. I think he opted for the latter.

I agree. And so far it looks like a brilliant move. Early returns have been fantastic.

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11-18-2011, 03:40 PM
  #92
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Can't tell if you are being sarcastic? Actually he was responding to the poster that said Columbus was two pieces away from being a contender. I think they need much more...
Derp. For some reason I thought he said the Flyers need a goalie and a coach.

Me bad.

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11-18-2011, 03:42 PM
  #93
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what's great about this type of stuff is how it completely ignores reality. Carter was getting paid no matter what. Either in Philly, or another city of his choosing. that last part is a big deal, the Flyers essentially robbed him of control over his life for a decade by the actions they took.

It never ceases to amaze how people stop viewing athletes as normal human beings just because they're wealthy. It would be one thing if Carter was signed to a normal contract, but this is a completely different scenario.
I do got a question. If you were offered the deal by Columbus and then another deal with a team Carter wanted to go to but the price was worse, do you trade to the team that Carter wants to go to even if its a worse deal and doesnt help your team as much compared to the other deal?

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11-18-2011, 03:43 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Coutsiephan View Post
Um did you read my other posts? Obviously not.

We know your agenda..pulling things out of context.

I never liked Carter for various reasons and I don't have to apologize for those reasons. However, I always provided my reasons for trading him and that was for purely hockey/business reasons and to leverage him exactly like we did..so don't give your childish dishonest BS....
Sorry Cartsiephan I mean Coutsiephan. You have your opinion which is your right and I have mine. However, childish,dishonest BS? You can mud sling better than that.

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11-18-2011, 03:59 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
Sorry Cartsiephan I mean Coutsiephan. You have your opinion which is your right and I have mine. However, childish,dishonest BS? You can mud sling better than that.
I can and I'm sparing you my ire b/c I had considered you a bit more reasonable and not the "idiot" that Jester claims you are....

Nonetheless, doesn't change the fact that I'm neither Cartsiephan/ROTCphan nor a blind hater of Carter and that I'm on record on this board for providing a much more nuanced rationale as to why Carter should have been traded which again was precisely b/c he still had value and we could leverage him for more depth and assets which we needed. Just so happened we picked up a gem that maybe we didn't expect to get initially but hey that's why sometimes you have to make gutsy moves. You can't be neutral on a moving train....

Anyway...punch in a search with the keywords Carter and leverage and you will see quite a few posts where I lay out my rationale. My personal dislike of him for various reasons while real were ancillary to the business reasons. It had more to do with pragmatism.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 11-18-2011 at 04:08 PM. Reason: Minor cleanup, will explain in PM
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11-18-2011, 04:46 PM
  #96
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The bottom line is that Carter always came up small when it mattered the most, and he really seemed like he could never make it to / through the playoffs healthy.

Aside from the various rumors about his actions, the guy just wasn't a team leader and didn't show up / was injured when we really needed our stars to shine. And based on that, given what we received in return, I'm glad we made the trade.

If there's anyone you can argue we shouldn't have traded, it's Mike Richards. Honestly, I'm still a little bitter about that one. I understand that perhaps he wasn't the leader everyone thought he should be (again, a rumor), but he had come up big for us in most every playoff situation where we needed him (last year not withstanding since he had a torn labrum for nearly the entire year). We also didn't get nearly as much for him as we did for Carter... especially considering that Richie was more valuable than Carter IMO. Couturier and Schenn are equal in terms of value right now and I think Voracek + 3rd easily edges Simmonds + 2nd.

At any rate, I would love to have Richards (wearing an A, not a C) back on this team right now.

How good would these lines look?

Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr
JVR-Richards-Briere
Talbot-Read-Voracek
Harry Z-Couturier-Rinaldo

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11-18-2011, 04:52 PM
  #97
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Get paid millions of dollars to play hockey...Suck it up. All professional athletes are overpaid. Can't sympathize for them.
agreed X1000

you pay me that much cash to do a hobby i enjoy, and i'll go live in the Arctic circle for thelength of the contract terms


i've always said pro-sports players salaries are out of touch with the reality these days..

they should consider themselves lucky to be getting PAID stupid amounts of money to do something they "supposedly" love to do..

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11-18-2011, 04:53 PM
  #98
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This thread really lost focus.
Did he get screwed? Yep.. but its a business. He knew his NTC wasn't in effect right away.
Did we end up with a better overall team? Not 100% sure yet, but so far, so good.
Does he have a right to request a trade? I think so. But in doing so, he needs to accept the ramifications of it.

Overall, the fact that the guy didnt even make it out of October without an injury tells me that we made out much better in this trade. Couterier looks like he will be a great player with excellent hockey vision. Just hope he stays healthy.

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11-18-2011, 05:03 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I do got a question. If you were offered the deal by Columbus and then another deal with a team Carter wanted to go to but the price was worse, do you trade to the team that Carter wants to go to even if its a worse deal and doesnt help your team as much compared to the other deal?
Good question.. seriously. If another team offered a former 1st round guy and maybe the 12-15th overall pick without the added 3rd rounder, I wouldn't find it hard to believe that the Flyers wouldnt consider it b/c of Carters past service to the team.

Thing is, Columbus was the only team that offered this cause it was such a high risk deal. Think about this, former 1st rounder still in RFA status along with the 7th overall pick for a guy that scores goals but is sort of an injury risk?

Most teams would have done what the Flyers did.

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11-18-2011, 05:39 PM
  #100
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The bottom line is that Carter always came up small when it mattered the most, and he really seemed like he could never make it to / through the playoffs healthy.

Aside from the various rumors about his actions, the guy just wasn't a team leader and didn't show up / was injured when we really needed our stars to shine. And based on that, given what we received in return, I'm glad we made the trade.

If there's anyone you can argue we shouldn't have traded, it's Mike Richards. Honestly, I'm still a little bitter about that one. I understand that perhaps he wasn't the leader everyone thought he should be (again, a rumor), but he had come up big for us in most every playoff situation where we needed him (last year not withstanding since he had a torn labrum for nearly the entire year). We also didn't get nearly as much for him as we did for Carter... especially considering that Richie was more valuable than Carter IMO. Couturier and Schenn are equal in terms of value right now and I think Voracek + 3rd easily edges Simmonds + 2nd.

At any rate, I would love to have Richards (wearing an A, not a C) back on this team right now.

How good would these lines look?

Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr
JVR-Richards-Briere
Talbot-Read-Voracek
Harry Z-Couturier-Rinaldo
You should check out LA's board and see what they think about Richards' questionable leadership skills. They love the way he's gathering the players around him before face offs and telling them where to go. He's running the PP and both he and Gags have been huge for them. In fact Gags made a comment that he's never been happier than he has been this season.

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