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Are the expectations of Miller pay based? positionally based? or both?

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Old
11-18-2011, 03:42 PM
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joshjull
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Are the expectations of Miller pay based? positionally based? or both?

I ask this because many of those that beat up on Miller andd have very high expectations do so in large part because of his salary. Yet Vanek has been the highest paid player in salary and cap hit on this team for the last 4 years. He will be the highest cap hit for the foreseable future.

So why doesn't he have the same expectations that Miller does?

Are the expectations of Miller pay based? positionally based? or both?


Last edited by joshjull: 11-18-2011 at 04:40 PM.
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11-18-2011, 03:45 PM
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Eh...he did? People brought up his contract in every single GBU for the last few years when he wasn't on the score sheet. He's second in the league in scoring right now, so people have other axes to grind. You can bet that if his point totals were down he'd be getting roasted on his contract just as much as Miller.

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11-18-2011, 03:49 PM
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Eh...he did? People brought up his contract in every single GBU for the last few years when he wasn't on the score sheet. He's second in the league in scoring right now, so people have other axes to grind. You can bet that if his point totals were down he'd be getting roasted on his contract just as much as Miller.
yup, everyone making 2 mil or more gets bagged on. Vanek got it, Poms got it, Myers will get it as soon as his contract kicks in, Ehrhoff gets it, Leino of course, Boyes, Goose.

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11-18-2011, 03:49 PM
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He doesn't shrug...

Seriously though, I recall a lot of Vanek bashing in the last few years, and people saying we would have been better off with EDMs 4 picks. I think that this season he "gets it". Solid in both zones, and quite frankly, if there's a better snap shot in the NHL, I'll need to see a video of it.

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11-18-2011, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
See all GBU threads from 2007-2010
Exactly. Vanek won people over (with his play). Miller, at this point I'm not sure there's any level of play he can achieve that will boost his fav/unfav numbers.


There's probably some personality component to this too. No matter how inconsistent/poor Vanek would play, he always looked and acted like he cared and beat himself up. Maybe that engendered some benefit of the doubt. My two cents anyway.

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11-18-2011, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Myllz View Post
Eh...he did? People brought up his contract in every single GBU for the last few years when he wasn't on the score sheet. He's second in the league in scoring right now, so people have other axes to grind. You can bet that if his point totals were down he'd be getting roasted on his contract just as much as Miller.
Maybe a better way to put it is. Why is Miller expected to carry the team because he is paid what he is. But there is no such expectation of Vanek based on his pay?

Btw this isn't a bash Vanek thread nor do I expect Vanek to carry the team. I also know Vanek, Pommer etc take their shots when they struggle over their pay. Since I gave Vanek plenty of grief the first few years of his deal. But reading through some debates on Miller. I'm amazed at the expecatations that are heaped on him based on his pay.

I'm just curious why this is the case.

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11-18-2011, 04:01 PM
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People are willing to excuse bad games if they are few and far between.

In 09-10 nobody was getting on Miller's case when he had a subpar game. But Vanek was getting the "1M per goal" treatment when he struggled early in those seasons post-contract. "Thomas Vanish" and all, "10M player" and all.

Pommer has been lambasted (wrongfully IMO given his production among RWs relative to league salaries) the past few years.

The real question is when does Stafford get called out...despite his raise he has seemingly been immune so far even though he has had a relatively poor start.

The exception seems to be Jochen Hecht, who can do no right to justify his salary to some poster here.

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11-18-2011, 04:07 PM
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My point is more along the lines of the expectations of high paid goalies versus their high paid teammates at forward and defense.

The expectations of Miller from many are along the lines of what was expected of Hasek. Yet Hasek was on an entirely different level and was compensated well beyond what Miller is in relation to his teammates.

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11-18-2011, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
My point is more along the lines of the expectations of high paid goalies versus their high paid teammates at forward and defense.

The expectations of Miller from many are along the lines of what was expected of Hasek. Yet Hasek was on an entirely different level and was compensated well beyond what Miller is in relation to his teammates.
Then the expectations of many are completely moronic.

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11-18-2011, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
My point is more along the lines of the expectations of high paid goalies versus their high paid teammates at forward and defense.

The expectations of Miller from many are along the lines of what was expected of Hasek. Yet Hasek was on an entirely different level and was compensated well beyond what Miller is in relation to his teammates.
Dude is getting paid like a king, look at Lundqvist, he makes save after save and keeps his team in the game, game after game, our guy? Shows up for one game, goes missing for 3.

Okay, I exaggerate, but the soft goal per game is not an exaggeration.

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11-18-2011, 04:10 PM
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As everyone pointed out, Vanek has taken a beating on the boards over the years. To get to your question, imo it's all about position. When Miller plays bad, it's near impossible for the team to lose. When Vanek plays bad, odds are it won't directly cause us more than say, one goal, and there are other forwards who can pick him up. I certainly don't expect any one player to carry the team but the unrealistic expectation for most is for Miller to be all-world Vezina goalie.

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11-18-2011, 04:10 PM
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Miller right now is not being viewed as playing as well as Vanek night-to-night this season (outside of the first game in Montreal), even if Vanek has had some rough patches. Vanek's mistakes don't usually wind up with their own red light light-show and a faceoff at center ice (usually just a long slow skate to the penalty box from the attacking zone).

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11-18-2011, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by thefifagod View Post
As everyone pointed out, Vanek has taken a beating on the boards over the years. To get to your question, imo it's all about position. When Miller plays bad, it's near impossible for the team to lose. When Vanek plays bad, odds are it won't directly cause us more than say, one goal, and there are other forwards who can pick him up. I certainly don't expect any one player to carry the team but the unrealistic expectation for most is for Miller to be all-world Vezina goalie.
It's unrealistic? Why is he paid so much.

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11-18-2011, 04:18 PM
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Vanek is performing at a level far above his peers. Miller is not. Both of them must do so to justify their salaries.

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11-18-2011, 04:19 PM
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Vanek's contract was always brought up a few years ago...

Since then he's matured as a player, and now is extremely valuable to the team. Vanek is the last player I want injured for any period of time. (Pominville is a close second.)


I never complain about Miller's contract either. He's a top 5 goalie for sure. I'm just hoping this concussion doesn't loom(Sp?). He's already had a rough start...

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11-18-2011, 04:20 PM
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I edited the OP to better reflect my point. as well as deleted posts that were OT (which was my fault due to my poor wording).

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11-18-2011, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryan Ellis Problems View Post
Vanek is performing at a level far above his peers. Miller is not. Both of them must do so to justify their salaries.
I'm not talking about this year and I appologize for such a poorly stated OP.


I'm saying that many expect Miller at times to be a rock that helps the team ride through storms in a game. Some even expect him to carry the team when they're struggling. They base this in large part of his current deal.

My question is why isn't there the same expectation of Vanek who is paid even more?

Are the expectations on Miller more positionally based? Or are the pay based? Or a combo of both?

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11-18-2011, 04:33 PM
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the major difference between whipping vanek and whipping miller is that vanek's contract size was forced, miller's was not.

so you actually cannot expect vanek to meet his salary requirements, but you have to expect miller to do so, because it was your decision to give miller the amount he has.

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11-18-2011, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post

I'm saying that many expect Miller at times to be a rock that helps the team ride through storms in a game. Some even expect him to carry the team when they're struggling. They base this in large part of his current deal.

My question is why isn't there the same expectation of Vanek who is paid even more?

Are the expectations on Miller more positional than pay based? Or a combo of both?
I think that the goaltender is the only player that can truly carry a team, as he's on the ice for the entire game. When you pay a goaltender that much, you want to see him do so. And Miller does, but anecdotally less often than a Lundqvist, past-prime Brodeur, etc. There's not much more you can expect a forward to do than put up a point per game while playing solid D, imo.

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11-18-2011, 04:38 PM
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the major difference between whipping vanek and whipping miller is that vanek's contract size was forced, miller's was not.

so you actually cannot expect vanek to meet his salary requirements, but you have to expect miller to do so, because it was your decision to give miller the amount he has.
It was the Sabres decision to match the offer from Edmonton, so that argument doesn't fly.

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11-18-2011, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I ask this because many of those that beat up on Miller nad have very high expectattions due so because of his salary. Yet Vanek has been the highest paid player in salary and cap hit on this team for the last 4 years. He will be the highest cap hit for the foreseable future.


Vanek's contract is also the largest in Sabres history. For all the hoopla over Ehrhoff's deal Vanek's is worth 10mil more. In the previous 4 season Vanek made 30.8mil. In those same 4 years Miller made a little over half of that (18.5mil). Hell Vanek has already made the entire value of Miller's contract in the first 4 years his deal and still has 3 more years at 6.4mil to go (19.2mil total).

Vanek's pay over the last 4 years and his contract overall dwarfs Miller's compenstion the last 4years and his current contract.

So why doesn't he have the same expectations that Miller does?
The Vanek deal was a match offer. So his salary is slightly too high, and it does not-usually-reflect is net worth to the team. Having said that, he is worth every penny IMHO and more often than not, looking like a steal of a deal. Especially this season.

Miller's salary is spot on IMO. Not too high, not too low. A goalie that can steal 10-20 points every season, is easily worth that much. I though that this season, he was fantastic up until that Flyers game. They absolutely rattled his confidence and I don't think he has recovered as of yet. The injury complicates the process, but I fully expect the 6+ million dollar man to be at full confidence soon. Health permitting.

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11-18-2011, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I ask this because many of those that beat up on Miller andd have very high expectations do so in large part because of his salary. Yet Vanek has been the highest paid player in salary and cap hit on this team for the last 4 years. He will be the highest cap hit for the foreseable future.

So why doesn't he have the same expectations that Miller does?

Are the expectations of Miller pay based? postionally based? or both?
Vanek and Miller have equally high expectations

The difference, when it comes to ragging on Miller's contract versus Vanek... is that you can't go out and buy 40 goal talent for 2 million bucks... and it's hardy to stumble across that talent in the draft outside the higher end prospects.

However, you can go out and get 40 WIN talent in goal at quite a discount (as long as you build a good enough team around it). You can also land 40 WIN goaltenders anywhere in the draft (again, with the proper team).

You can't build a good team, and in turn have a good chance to turn just about anybody into a highly productive goal scorer... but you can build a very good team, and turn just about anyone into a winning goaltender.

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11-18-2011, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryan Ellis Problems View Post
I think that the goaltender is the only player that can truly carry a team, as he's on the ice for the entire game. When you pay a goaltender that much, you want to see him do so. And Miller does, but anecdotally less often than a Lundqvist, past-prime Brodeur, etc. There's not much more you can expect a forward to do than put up a point per game while playing solid D, imo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
The Vanek deal was a match offer. So his salary is slightly too high, and it does not-usually-reflect is net worth to the team. Having said that, he is worth every penny IMHO and more often than not, looking like a steal of a deal. Especially this season.

Miller's salary is spot on IMO. Not too high, not too low. A goalie that can steal 10-20 points every season, is easily worth that much. I though that this season, he was fantastic up until that Flyers game. They absolutely rattled his confidence and I don't think he has recovered as of yet. The injury complicates the process, but I fully expect the 6+ million dollar man to be at full confidence soon. Health permitting.

Great responses and what I was looking for.


Thanks for putting up with me while I tried to get my head out of my ass with the OP.

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11-18-2011, 04:48 PM
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It was the Sabres decision to match the offer from Edmonton, so that argument doesn't fly.
yes, but with briere and drury already gone, the sabres could not afford losing vanek. so they had to match the offer at all cost. if they resigned him, his salary would be much lower. the additional 1.5M they "accepted" were a mandatory evil.

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11-18-2011, 05:02 PM
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joshjull
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Vanek and Miller have equally high expectations

The difference, when it comes to ragging on Miller's contract versus Vanek... is that you can't go out and buy 40 goal talent for 2 million bucks... and it's hardy to stumble across that talent in the draft outside the higher end prospects.

However, you can go out and get 40 WIN talent in goal at quite a discount (as long as you build a good enough team around it). You can also land 40 WIN goaltenders anywhere in the draft (again, with the proper team).

You can't build a good team, and in turn have a good chance to turn just about anybody into a highly productive goal scorer... but you can build a very good team, and turn just about anyone into a winning goaltender.
Actually we had 43 goal scorer playing for us for 942k in 06-07. That same year we had a 34 goal scorer playing for 800k (Pommer). The following year that player made .934k and was a ppg player.

The Hawks had a Norris trophy winner on their roster making 1.9mil the year they won the Cup.

You consistantly miss the point that teams develop over time. Why certain players make what they make is largely due to the circumstance of their team at the time. Its not because they are targetting a certain amount for any one position. You're taking a snapshot in time of a roster and making grand arguements off that one year. That it actuall has deeper meaning what certain players are making.


It makes as much sense as me arguing we should be looking to spend 1.9mil on a Norris caliber dman since the Hawks won a Cup with one making that little.


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