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Old
11-17-2011, 09:00 PM
  #101
Bernie Parent 1974
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here is the deal:

January 2010 - FCC closes loophole
CV appeals
--------------------
June 2011 - the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington ruled in favor of the FCC, and denied CV's appeal of the Terrestrial Loophole closure
---------------------
Nov 10/2011 - the FCC denied an Application for Review:
http://www.fcc.gov/document/verizon-...den-lp-et-al-1
--------------------
Nov 16/2011 - another appeal was filed yesterday, with the Second Circuit Court of Appeals - a different court than the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington

http://www.deadline.com/2011/11/veri...nother-appeal/


Last edited by Bernie Parent 1974: 11-18-2011 at 11:45 AM.
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11-17-2011, 09:12 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
here is the deal:

January 2010 - FCC closes loophole
CV appeals
--------------------
June 2011 - the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington ruled in favor of the FCC, and denied CV's appeal of the Terrestrial Loophole closure
---------------------
Nov 10/2011 - the FCC denied an Application for Review:
http://www.fcc.gov/document/verizon-...den-lp-et-al-1
--------------------
Nov 16/2011 - another appeal was filed yesterday, with the Second Circuit Court of Appeals - a different court than the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington

http://www.deadline.com/2011/11/veri...nother-appeal/
Yeah so nothing is final yet. Where are we not on the same page here?

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11-17-2011, 09:23 PM
  #103
Bernie Parent 1974
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i think it's accurate to say that CV has to get things stayed by the 25th, or allow the channels on Verizon / ATT at that time.

so far the 25th is when they must comply. they have 8 days to get some other court besides the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington to see things their way

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11-17-2011, 09:35 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
i think it's accurate to say that CV has to get things stayed by the 25th, or allow the channels on Verizon / ATT at that time.

so far the 25th is when they must comply. they have 8 days to get some other court besides the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington to see things their way
Yeah I'll be honest with you, without seeing the actual court orders and documents concerning these appeals, I am not sure what is going on. As far as I can tell, if the case is currently being appealed, those channels won't be coming until the appeal is officially over.

EDIT: This really doesn't add up. I think one of those articles might be incorrect. You can't appeal the same case twice so if they already appealed it then there will be no subsequent appeal (you can appeal to the FCC and then if you lose appeal to the Federal Courts, but you can't appeal to one Circuit and then another). So it either never was appealed to begin with or is not being appealed now. But you can't appeal to one Circuit and lose then appeal to another Circuit. A little more clarification. You can appeal to the agency, then to the Federal Courts, lose, get sent back down, and appeal again to the federal court. But you can't appeal from the agency, then to the Federal Courts, then again to the same federal court. You'd have to be sent back down to the FCC first.


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11-17-2011, 10:03 PM
  #105
Bernie Parent 1974
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i don't think they should be able to appeal further, honestly.

the FCC ruled
Federal Court agreed
FCC denied a review

of course CV will stall as long as they can, as is their right, but all that does is turn public sentiment against them in my view

doesn't make sense that they can just go to another court over the same issue

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11-17-2011, 10:09 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
i don't think they should be able to appeal further, honestly.

the FCC ruled
Federal Court agreed
FCC denied a review

of course CV will stall as long as they can, as is their right, but all that does is turn public sentiment against them in my view

doesn't make sense that they can just go to another court over the same issue
Yeah, like I said, without seeing the actual documents or a reported case, it is hard to tell what is going on. I think if the one article is correct and they are currently appealing, it is going to be a while, but if they aren't then I guess its over.

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11-17-2011, 11:37 PM
  #107
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i be inclined to believe that they filed an appeal on the 16th with the Second Circuit Court of Appeals - a different court than the original court [U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington]

but i also would think that's not a guarantee that they can extend past the 25th

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11-18-2011, 08:48 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
i be inclined to believe that they filed an appeal on the 16th with the Second Circuit Court of Appeals - a different court than the original court [U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington]

but i also would think that's not a guarantee that they can extend past the 25th
Again this is where I think you are confused. The appeal that took place in the DC Circuit was FCC vs. Cablevision (a different case dealing with a different, though related issue). That case was sent back to the FCC and I don't know and can't find out what is happening with that. The case involving MSG HD going to Verizon is Verizon vs. MSG. From what I can gather from these articles is that the FCC ruled against them, they appealed, and they ruled against them again. Now they are appealing to the Second Circuit, which if they are, they won't be uplinking any channels on the 25th (unless their appeal is kicked out before that, which would be very quick but I suppose not impossible). Another possibility is that they already appealed last week/earlier this week like the other article says, in which case if they already lost they can't be appealing it right now (unless the case was thrown out for lack of jurisdiction or improper venue or something like that, in which case they would be forced to appeal to another court. However, that would be a very quick turnaround.

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11-18-2011, 11:48 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
The appeal that took place in the DC Circuit was FCC vs. Cablevision
i think you are mixed up, honestly. there has only been 1 appeal.

the only 'appeal', was Cablevision's appeal of the January 2010 FCC closure of the terrestrial loophole.
that appeal was in June 2011 - by the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington who ruled in favor of the FCC, and denied CV's appeal of the Terrestrial Loophole closure, which resulted in them being ordered to supply MSG HD

Cablevision's request for a review was rejected by the FCC on November 10th:
http://www.fcc.gov/document/verizon-...den-lp-et-al-1


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
The case involving MSG HD going to Verizon is Verizon vs. MSG
this entire loophole closure / rejected appeal resulted in CV being ordered to give up it's MSG HD channel. it is not a 'separate issue'. if you want to call it a different legal 'case', go ahead, but it's all the same issue:


Jan 2010 - the FCC ruled [close loophole, meaning CSN Philly / MSG HD channels for all]
June 2011 - Federal Court agreed [denied CV's appeal regarding MSG HD]
Nov 10th - FCC denied a review [meaning MSG HD for all, this time giving CV a hard date of Nov 25th]


Now, CV is trying to appeal to a different court:
Nov 16/2011 - another appeal was filed , this time with the Second Circuit Court of Appeals - a different court than the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington

http://www.deadline.com/2011/11/veri...nother-appeal/


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Now they are appealing to the Second Circuit, which if they are, they won't be uplinking any channels on the 25th (unless their appeal is kicked out before that, which would be very quick but I suppose not impossible).

that is correct, if nothing changes, they are obligated to comply on the 25th. merely 'filing' an appeal does not automatically mean it will be heard. it could be thrown out any day now.


Last edited by Bernie Parent 1974: 11-18-2011 at 11:54 AM.
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11-18-2011, 12:01 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
i think you are mixed up, honestly. there has only been 1 appeal.

the only 'appeal', was Cablevision's appeal of the January 2010 FCC closure of the terrestrial loophole.
that appeal was in June 2011 - by the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington who ruled in favor of the FCC, and denied CV's appeal of the Terrestrial Loophole closure, which resulted in them being ordered to supply MSG HD

Cablevision's request for a review was rejected by the FCC on November 10th:
http://www.fcc.gov/document/verizon-...den-lp-et-al-1



this entire loophole closure / rejected appeal resulted in CV being ordered to give up it's MSG HD channel. it is not a 'separate issue'. if you want to call it a different legal 'case', go ahead, but it's all the same issue:


Jan 2010 - the FCC ruled [close loophole, meaning CSN Philly / MSG HD channels for all]
June 2011 - Federal Court agreed [denied CV's appeal regarding MSG HD]
Nov 10th - FCC denied a review [meaning MSG HD for all, this time giving CV a hard date of Nov 25th]


Now, CV is trying to appeal to a different court:
Nov 16/2011 - another appeal was filed , this time with the Second Circuit Court of Appeals - a different court than the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington

http://www.deadline.com/2011/11/veri...nother-appeal/
Ok I am not going to get into this because it will take all day, but the fact that these are two different cases means a great deal in regards to what we are talking about. Cablevision may win one and lose the other. And if one appeal is exhausted the other appeal may not be. The November 10th ruling (Verizon v. MSG) is not connected to the June or January rulings. Those two are a different case (FCC v. Cablevision). They may impact the holdings of the current appeal, but they are not the same case. That is why this is important to this subject. If the current case is being appealed, regardless of what the other rulings in the other case said, this is not over yet.

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11-18-2011, 12:32 PM
  #111
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where is this '2nd case' ???


Jan 2010 - the FCC close the terrestrial loophole. case closed.



[meaning CSN Philly from COMCAST and MSG HD from CABLEVISION are no longer able to be withheld after ATT / Verizon / DISH / DTV file petition requests, and if granted and negotiate deals]

-----------------

June 2011 - Federal Court denied CABLEVISION 's appeal. case closed.

[meaning CABLEVISION had to supply MSG HD.
COMCAST & CSN Philly are not involved, as COMCAST did not appeal, only CABLEVISION ]

----------------

Nov 10th, 2011 - FCC denied a review request from CABLEVISION. case closed.

[meaning MSG HD for all, this time giving CABLEVISION a hard date of Nov 25th]


======================
the only ongoing 'case' that we have been able to dig up is

Now, CABLEVISION is trying to appeal to a different court:
Nov 16/2011 - another appeal was filed , this time with the Second Circuit Court of Appeals - a different court than the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington

=======================

CABLEVISION [MSG HD channel] and COMCAST [CSN Philly channel] are not related .. except that they were both ordered to no longer withhold their respective channels
=======================

show me some 'other' open case. where is it ? are you just referring to CSN / Philly as a '2nd case' ?
there is no news on COMCAST / CSN Philly that we can dig up. last we heard, DTV and Comcast are negotiating, and not in a court case.


================================================== =========

we are tracking the MSG HD issue, as it was also a result of the 2010 loophole closure


Last edited by Bernie Parent 1974: 11-18-2011 at 02:56 PM.
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11-18-2011, 03:43 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
where is this '2nd case' ???


Jan 2010 - the FCC close the terrestrial loophole. case closed.



[meaning CSN Philly from COMCAST and MSG HD from CABLEVISION are no longer able to be withheld after ATT / Verizon / DISH / DTV file petition requests, and if granted and negotiate deals]

-----------------

June 2011 - Federal Court denied CABLEVISION 's appeal. case closed.

[meaning CABLEVISION had to supply MSG HD.
COMCAST & CSN Philly are not involved, as COMCAST did not appeal, only CABLEVISION ]

----------------

Nov 10th, 2011 - FCC denied a review request from CABLEVISION. case closed.

[meaning MSG HD for all, this time giving CABLEVISION a hard date of Nov 25th]


======================
the only ongoing 'case' that we have been able to dig up is

Now, CABLEVISION is trying to appeal to a different court:
Nov 16/2011 - another appeal was filed , this time with the Second Circuit Court of Appeals - a different court than the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington

=======================

CABLEVISION [MSG HD channel] and COMCAST [CSN Philly channel] are not related .. except that they were both ordered to no longer withhold their respective channels
=======================

show me some 'other' open case. where is it ? are you just referring to CSN / Philly as a '2nd case' ?
there is no news on COMCAST / CSN Philly that we can dig up. last we heard, DTV and Comcast are negotiating, and not in a court case.


================================================== =========

we are tracking the MSG HD issue, as it was also a result of the 2010 loophole closure
The two different cases don't even involve Comcast at all. The two different cases are FCC v. Cablevision (which is the case that the DC Circuit determined that the FCC had the ability to regulate the terrestrial loophole but that it was arbitrary and capricious to declare all withholdings categorically unfair) and Verizon vs. MSG in which, as far as I can tell, the FCC ruled against MSG, then denied review, and now is being appealed to the Second Circuit. These are two separate cases dealing with separate, albeit related issues (one challenging the validity of the rule (FCC v. Cablevision) and one determining whether specific actions are in violation of FCC rules (Verizon v. MSG))

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11-18-2011, 04:01 PM
  #113
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if you want to call these 'separate but related', so be it. it changes nothing that i'm saying.

this is the 'issue':

FCC closed the loophole - leads to CV appeal of the closure because they don't want to give up MSG HD - rejection of the appeal leads to the order to supply MSG HD - request for review denied - stay denied - filing of another appeal on Nov 16th of the Nov 10th ruling / denial of a stay

CABLEVISION is trying to appeal being ordered to supply MSG HD, call them 'separate but related cases' if you like, but it's as simple as that.

their deadline to comply is the 25th. unless something changes legally. filing an appeal ensures nothing.

Verizon expects the channel to be live mid-December.


Last edited by Bernie Parent 1974: 11-18-2011 at 05:24 PM.
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11-18-2011, 05:34 PM
  #114
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CABLEVISION has decided to file suit against the FCC Media Bureau, instead of 'appealing' apparently:

Quote:
The Second Circuit last week refused Cablevision's request to stay the decisions, a request made before the FCC came out with its ruling the following day upholding the Media Bureau. Now that the commission has weighed in upholding the decision, Cablevision is suing it.
http://www.multichannel.com/article/...s_Decision.php

Cablevision is the Captain of the Titanic that is MSG HD

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11-18-2011, 06:20 PM
  #115
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So how exactly is all of this going to effect csn-p being released to dish and direct?

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11-18-2011, 06:37 PM
  #116
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DTV and Comcast are negotiating [according to DTV]. I don't know about DISH

my bet is that they are both watching the CV MSG HD situation.

once / if MSG HD goes live on Verizon, I'd bet DTV starts putting pressure on Comcast about CSN Philly, since they both were channels withheld via the now closed loophole

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11-18-2011, 07:29 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
CABLEVISION has decided to file suit against the FCC Media Bureau, instead of 'appealing' apparently:



http://www.multichannel.com/article/...s_Decision.php

Cablevision is the Captain of the Titanic that is MSG HD
Ok now this is a totally different story and still confusing. Ugh. Haha.

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11-18-2011, 07:39 PM
  #118
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that's why I have been lumping all of the CV stuff together. they are gonna wriggle and wrangle ....

however, they are just trying to get 1 thing accomplished: not give up MSG HD.

it seems time is running out, they have 1 week to get somebody to delay the 25th deadline ....

stay tuned.....

[unless you're trying to watch MSG HD on FiOS ]

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11-18-2011, 07:45 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
that's why I have been lumping all of the CV stuff together. they are gonna wriggle and wrangle ....

however, they are just trying to get 1 thing accomplished: not give up MSG HD.

it seems time is running out, they have 1 week to get somebody to delay the 25th deadline ....

stay tuned.....

[unless you're trying to watch MSG HD on FiOS ]
If they are still trying to appeal it or sue them or whatever it is they are doing right now, they aren't going to put the channel up unless the FCC starts handing out fines (which it very well may do). Seems like they are trying to get an injunction or something now, but it is hard to tell exactly what is going on just from the articles. I could care less about this MSG and Verizon crap though! All I am waiting for is CSN Philly on DTV!

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11-18-2011, 08:53 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
If they are still trying to appeal it or sue them or whatever it is they are doing right now, they aren't going to put the channel up unless the FCC starts handing out fines (which it very well may do).
totally agreed
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I could care less about this MSG and Verizon crap though! :
it's 'couldn't care less'

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
All I am waiting for is CSN Philly on DTV!
i think the MSG HD issue will set a precedent for CSN Philly, honestly. If it goes onto Verizon, and CV ultimately fails in the courts, I'd think Comcast will realize they'd suffer the same fate.

if we can dig up CSN Philly / DTV info, that'd be great as well

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11-18-2011, 09:51 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
it's 'couldn't care less'
Haha, whatever.

Quote:
i think the MSG HD issue will set a precedent for CSN Philly, honestly. If it goes onto Verizon, and CV ultimately fails in the courts, I'd think Comcast will realize they'd suffer the same fate.

if we can dig up CSN Philly / DTV info, that'd be great as well
Nah, CSN will fight just as hard as Cablevision. Even if it costs them a ton to fight, the reward of winning is probably more.

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11-18-2011, 11:08 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
CSN will fight just as hard as Cablevision. Even if it costs them a ton to fight, the reward of winning is probably more.
i'm sure they'll try.

they'll lose:

The NBC merger has many FCC stipulations attached. One of them is about making programming available to multiple channels:

Quote:
The FCC is also requiring Comcast-NBCU to make available through this process its cable channels in addition to broadcast and regional sports network programming.

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11-19-2011, 09:43 AM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
i'm sure they'll try.

they'll lose:

The NBC merger has many FCC stipulations attached. One of them is about making programming available to multiple channels:
Let's hope so

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11-19-2011, 05:02 PM
  #124
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Quote:
“DISH Network has requested access to deliver Comcast SportsNet Philadelphia to our customers; however Comcast has refused to enter into good faith discussions. Comcast’s refusal clearly demonstrates a disturbing pattern of discriminatory behavior – as we have indicated in our previous arbitration filings – whereby the provider continues to restrict access to must-have sports programming and inappropriately uses its leverage to drive onerous terms for its other programming properties. DISH Network believes that Comcast is in direct violation of the FCC’s order to close the “terrestrial loophole” within the program access rules, and plans to file a formal complaint. It is this type of anti-competitive conduct that reinforces our argument that the merger between Comcast and NBCU poses a grave threat to competition in the multichannel video market.”
that was DISH network's statement in July 2010

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11-19-2011, 05:48 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
that was DISH network's statement in July 2010
Hopefully they filed that complaint and the ball is rolling. I have to pick a cable provider soon for my new house!

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