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Are You Happy With The Drafting of Trevor Timmins?

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11-19-2011, 06:31 AM
  #201
Whitesnake
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and the funny thing is, while both registered better numbers than AK, both were also traded cause Flyers management didnt believe in them anymore...
Which means that they are better players 'cause both guys were actually tradeable while AKost isn't... I would have love to have some of the returns they got for the guys they send. And most likely than not, anybody will be surprise here if the end result is that AKost walks at the end of the year with us not receiving anything?

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11-19-2011, 07:05 AM
  #202
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Kostitsyn is a good player and not a waste of a pick. I'll settle for getting a good player, not necessarily the number one available, as long as there are few blown picks and a few surprises in the later rounds.

The current approach is to take projects, and there are a lot of players from the last few years taking time to hit the NHL, but there are not many complete flameouts. Not many stars, granted, but a large number of players who are either still prospects or who have played in the NHL. Considering the lack of high draft picks I'll take the large numbers and hope for a breakthrough. It is tough to draft stars outside the top ten.

Fischer had mental issues (no brains). Timmins decided to take a chance that he could learn, and he didn't. Terrible pick, but it is not as though there was no chance of success.

I'm more worried that the organization does not value draft picks and trades them for players who stay a year or less. The organization is rated 24th by HF and I suspect they would be higher had they hung on to a few of the picks they traded away. On the other hand they might be higher because they finished way worse in the standings. Gauthier may have a point, too, there are a lot of players available in the cap era.

The habs are accumulating some depth on D, so they may be in a position to trade for picks instead of trading picks in the next few years.

Have to see how Trotter does, the 'Dogs are way worse without him. Of course the habs won't miss him unless he takes some major steps.

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11-19-2011, 07:07 AM
  #203
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Come to think of it players like Beauchemin and Conroy bug me more than Sergei, Lats, Ribeiro, etc. It is one thing to let the coach dump an asset because he can't get him to produce, it is another to let assets go because you don't recognize the value.

Asset management vs draft again.

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11-19-2011, 09:05 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Which means that they are better players 'cause both guys were actually tradeable while AKost isn't... I would have love to have some of the returns they got for the guys they send. And most likely than not, anybody will be surprise here if the end result is that AKost walks at the end of the year with us not receiving anything?
I might be in the minority, but I would take AK over Jeff Carter even today.

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11-19-2011, 09:53 AM
  #205
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It still amazes me the success we have outside of the first round. Thinking of it it seems like we have more success with these successive rounds 2 and up then we do with our top picks.

Halak, Streit, Grabovski, S.Kostsitsyn, Pk.Suban, Latendresse, D'Agostini

TT is defenitly doing well ... I just hope the organization would not give up on his picks so quickly. I am thinking that a Latendresse, Eller, AK line would look pretty good now...

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11-19-2011, 10:03 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I might be in the minority, but I would take AK over Jeff Carter even today.
I think you're well in the minority. A fair question might be would you take Kostitsyn over Seabrook, Getzlaf, Perry, Kesler, Richards and Parise as well?

However, another thing to point out is that the Canadiens still managed to avoid disasters like Jessiman, Nilsson or Bernier and picked a good player. In fact of the players drafted higher than Kostitsyn, he was a better choice than Zherdev, Michalek and Coburn.

On another note, the shocking thing of that draft is how Anahiem and Philadelphia both hit gold on their 2 first round picks respectively.

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11-19-2011, 04:27 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Which means that they are better players 'cause both guys were actually tradeable while AKost isn't... I would have love to have some of the returns they got for the guys they send. And most likely than not, anybody will be surprise here if the end result is that AKost walks at the end of the year with us not receiving anything?
AK not tradable, really...

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11-19-2011, 05:02 PM
  #208
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I checked the drafts before 2000 and after. The number of players making it to the NHL changed pretty dramatically. And there have been misses (eg Fischer) but more good picks, and more surprising good picks, lately.

The last few drafts cannot be rated yet. Too many players who haven't graduated but also haven't busted. They look way better than the late '90s drafts, though.

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11-19-2011, 05:21 PM
  #209
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To be honest. If Whitesnake and I were the a Head Scout tandem for the Habs, we'd be doing pretty ****ing good.

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11-19-2011, 05:23 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Sure Fischer was a bad pick. I'm sure TT would like to have that one back, but we don't really know what information TT had and why he made the selection, some had him as a stay away from pick, others didn't, he was selected near where he was projected. I'm not defending the error, just making sense of it.

TT is right more often than not, but I'm sure he'd love to have this one back, but I'm not going to go on about how he missed Giroux ad nauseum, you win some, you lose some. He's won more than most and we should be happy we have him, there isn't a single scout in the history of the league who got everything right. Drafting 18 year olds and determining their success 3 or 4 years down the road is hardly a proven science, if all players had the developmental curve of a PK Subban, their life would be easier, but, such is not the case.
I never suggested otherwise. I'm very happy with TT's work. All i suggested is IF we had to single out a blemish I consider getting a 1st round pick to not even get a contract a bad pick. It's one thing if he doesn't make it, but to not get a contract? Ouch.

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11-19-2011, 06:49 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
AK not tradable, really...
Well there is no actual proofs that he is. And not for the "quality" that both Carter and Richards were. The year has not ended so we'll see. But I would choose to think that if he was, he would have been gone by now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
To be honest. If Whitesnake and I were the a Head Scout tandem for the Habs, we'd be doing pretty ****ing good.
Hey, we'd have our share of misses, and there would be some armchair head scouts that would be bashing us at this moment...

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11-19-2011, 06:55 PM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Well there is no actual proofs that he is. And not for the "quality" that both Carter and Richards were. The year has not ended so we'll see. But I would choose to think that if he was, he would have been gone by now.



Hey, we'd have our share of misses, and there would be some armchair head scouts that would be bashing us at this moment...
Our first round drafting would be impeccable. One's thing for sure, I'd have a late round Euro that misses and you'd have a late round Q player who misses. Your pick Kyle Rau ain't looking too bad so far this season, by the way.

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11-19-2011, 07:00 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Our first round drafting would be impeccable. One's thing for sure, I'd have a late round Euro that misses and you'd have a late round Q player who misses. Your pick Kyle Rau ain't looking too bad so far this season, by the way.
If I address my need of big centerman in 2003 with Getzlaf, I am definately not eager to go with Berglund and pick Giroux in 2006. But if I don't....well I reserve the right to say that it would have been close between both Giroux and Berglund.....I am really shockey by Deschamps lack of development. I really really can't believe it. I hope Habs made a deal involving Deschamps, I really think he has to turn it around.And you know how much I liked Gustafsson thanks to again my big body lookout. So 2008 for me had potentially 2 misses and 1 hit. I had Gustafsson and Deschamps high up......but I also had Mr. John Carlson in there.

As far as Rau, I always knew he'd do great at that level. NCAA is tough but there's room for elusive incredible skilled players mostly because 3rd and 4th liners aren't that tough to outskilled. Yet, it still remains to be seen how he'll do higher up. But I have a lot of hope.

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11-19-2011, 07:01 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Well there is no actual proofs that he is. And not for the "quality" that both Carter and Richards were. The year has not ended so we'll see. But I would choose to think that if he was, he would have been gone by now.



Hey, we'd have our share of misses, and there would be some armchair head scouts that would be bashing us at this moment...
and there's no proofs he isnt, wich is what you're claiming.

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11-19-2011, 07:05 PM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
If I address my need of big centerman in 2003 with Getzlaf, I am definately not eager to go with Berglund and pick Giroux in 2006. But if I don't....well I reserve the right to say that it would have been close between both Giroux and Berglund.....I am really shockey by Deschamps lack of development. I really really can't believe it. I hope Habs made a deal involving Deschamps, I really think he has to turn it around.And you know how much I liked Gustafsson thanks to again my big body lookout. So 2008 for me had potentially 2 misses and 1 hit. I had Gustafsson and Deschamps high up......but I also had Mr. John Carlson in there.

As far as Rau, I always knew he'd do great at that level. NCAA is tough but there's room for elusive incredible skilled players mostly because 3rd and 4th liners aren't that tough to outskilled. Yet, it still remains to be seen how he'll do higher up. But I have a lot of hope.
I liked Gustafsson as well, but he quit hockey for awhile, so there's not much that can be done about that. We sure would've had a debate over Berglund and Giroux, but you're right, if we had Getzlaf, then I think we would've been okay with agreeing on taking a chance on the franco-ontarian with magic hands. I am with you on the Deschamps boat, we were pushing hard for him, but 2008 overall wasn't a spectacular draft.

Question is, who would we have gone with in 09? I was against Louis Leblanc and was pushing for Josefson or Krieder. I think again, if we were already going with our track record, Krieder would've been the logical choice since he'll be a winger at the NHL level with speed to burn.

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11-19-2011, 07:05 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and there's no proofs he isnt, wich is what you're claiming.
Well the only proof is that he wasn't. Doesn't mean they haven't tried, end result is just that it's not happening. And if by that it means that he's so great so they won't be trading him, well we will hear soon how AKost has just gotten an extension. But if the guy was not traded while he was here and just let go for nothing, I will think that he wasn't tradeable OR that he could have been, but not for a good return. Which seems to be the case for Philly.

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11-19-2011, 07:07 PM
  #217
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I never suggested otherwise. I'm very happy with TT's work. All i suggested is IF we had to single out a blemish I consider getting a 1st round pick to not even get a contract a bad pick. It's one thing if he doesn't make it, but to not get a contract? Ouch.
Sure, I agree, but it wasn't that bad. We got a 2nd rd pick for him??

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11-19-2011, 07:10 PM
  #218
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I liked Gustafsson as well, but he quit hockey for awhile, so there's not much that can be done about that. We sure would've had a debate over Berglund and Giroux, but you're right, if we had Getzlaf, then I think we would've been okay with agreeing on taking a chance on the franco-ontarian with magic hands. I am with you on the Deschamps boat, we were pushing hard for him, but 2008 overall wasn't a spectacular draft.

Question is, who would we have gone with in 09? I was against Louis Leblanc and was pushing for Josefson or Krieder. I think again, if we were already going with our track record, Krieder would've been the logical choice since he'll be a winger at the NHL level with speed to burn.
Another honest moment, and Leblanc was up there for me. But Kreider was there as well, will honestly believe that Leblanc was a local choice mostly based on pressure. I have no proofs of this (will not pretend as I have tons of insides, sometimes do but not in this case), but I don't see how Kreider was not a typical Habs pick. And I would have love this as well. Though for me Leblanc made me thought of a great combination between skilled and hardwork. So I didn't hate the pick for sure. And Q for Q, I had Leblanc AHEAD of Caron. My other pick for the 1st round was John Moore. And you remember my odd man out of left field pick.....Roussel. I would not have picked him in the 1st in all honesty, but would have done the world to get a high 2nd rounder. As of now, I have a big problem with Roussel....the kid look so out of shape. It's incredible, he needs to pick that shape up.

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11-19-2011, 07:52 PM
  #219
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Sure, I agree, but it wasn't that bad. We got a 2nd rd pick for him??
Yup, luckily we offered him a contract earlier on and he rejected. Still, say the 31st pick overall, we screw that up and we don't get as lucky. Bad pick but i'm not stressing about it, just trying to be objective.

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11-19-2011, 07:53 PM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Another honest moment, and Leblanc was up there for me. But Kreider was there as well, will honestly believe that Leblanc was a local choice mostly based on pressure. I have no proofs of this (will not pretend as I have tons of insides, sometimes do but not in this case), but I don't see how Kreider was not a typical Habs pick. And I would have love this as well. Though for me Leblanc made me thought of a great combination between skilled and hardwork. So I didn't hate the pick for sure. And Q for Q, I had Leblanc AHEAD of Caron. My other pick for the 1st round was John Moore. And you remember my odd man out of left field pick.....Roussel. I would not have picked him in the 1st in all honesty, but would have done the world to get a high 2nd rounder. As of now, I have a big problem with Roussel....the kid look so out of shape. It's incredible, he needs to pick that shape up.
My boy from 07 Drayson Bowman has 5+5 for 10 points in 13 games in the AHL for Carolina's farm-team.

I remember you being high on Rousell, I definitely wasn't too high on the kid. I was high on Nattinen but it appears that he's more likely destined to top out as a 3rd line center if anything for the Habs.

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11-19-2011, 08:48 PM
  #221
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My boy from 07 Drayson Bowman has 5+5 for 10 points in 13 games in the AHL for Carolina's farm-team.

I remember you being high on Rousell, I definitely wasn't too high on the kid. I was high on Nattinen but it appears that he's more likely destined to top out as a 3rd line center if anything for the Habs.
I thought the world of David Savard too. I'm happy to see the kid's progression. And thought Roussel would do the same.

Based on my 35 picks (5 picks for each draft pick), the year I had the most draft picks in sync with Timmins was 2009. I had Leblanc, Naatinen, Dumont and Walsh. Though it doesn't mean quality will provide....but it's more a question of quantity. Which explains my point I'm trying to make about quality vs quantity. I choose the first one. You have to draft quality. You pick up quantity with the UFA market.

Good call on Bowman. I wasn't a fan. I'm stunned about Carter Ashton season in the AHL.....never thought he'd do what he's doing right now.

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11-19-2011, 08:55 PM
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I thought the world of David Savard too. I'm happy to see the kid's progression. And thought Roussel would do the same.

Based on my 35 picks (5 picks for each draft pick), the year I had the most draft picks in sync with Timmins was 2009. I had Leblanc, Naatinen, Dumont and Walsh. Though it doesn't mean quality will provide....but it's more a question of quantity. Which explains my point I'm trying to make about quality vs quantity. I choose the first one. You have to draft quality. You pick up quantity with the UFA market.

Good call on Bowman. I wasn't a fan. I'm stunned about Carter Ashton season in the AHL.....never thought he'd do what he's doing right now.
Wow, really? Ashton? That's actually impressive, I really didn't care much for him. Didn't think much of Landon Ferraro either, think I'm being proven right on that account.

For all the talk of Detroit's drafting. Landon Ferraro and McCollum were too huge misses. But they drafted my boys Pulkinen, Jarnkrok and Tatar..

Another Euro I liked, Carl Klingberg, is doing exceptional as well for the Jets farm team.

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11-21-2011, 11:22 AM
  #223
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I think it's fair to say that TT hasnt done a poor job.

I dont think many can come out and say that at all...

Since 2003 to 2007, 17 out of 49 picks are NHL quality players...

In 2003, Kostitsin, Lapierre, O'Byrne, and Halak were good picks.
Urquhart, Stewart, Korpikari were busts
and Locke, Heino-Lindberg, Flood and Bonneau were decent picks, and provided some depth and stablity along the way.

Some argue that A.K. isn't a bad pick. But I am not about what we mss, t's about what we got.

We got a top 6 winger, 4th line C, a bottom pair RD, and a starting goalie. Not a bad kitty... Any draft that has 4 NHL'ers in it could be looked back upon as successful.

2004. Emelin, Grabovski, Streit, are all IMO NHL quality players,
Chipchura is a 1st round bust. as is Lacasse, Gleed and Dulac-Lemelin...
Wyman, Stewart,

So the kitty with less picks, is a 4th line c (busted out first rounder) a 2/3 pairing d-man, a top 6 center (who needed a LONG time to develop... Much more than what was available here), and a homerun offensive d-man. Still, a 4 NHL'ers out of 9... not a bad tally.

2005 Carey Price, Latendresse, D'agostini, and S. Kosttsyn...
This is IMO his best of the first 3 drafts, out of 7 picks. 4 NHL'ers were harvested.
A generational goalie, 2 top 6 wingers, and a 3rd liner, who can fill in the top 6.
When he mssed the mark though, he mssed badly. (Aubin, Miikus, & Paquet)

2006 Was the WORST year he drafted. The only guy who is certifiable NHL'er IMO, is 4th liner Ryan White.
No one else amounted to anything. (Monumental bust in Fischer, Maxwell & Carle played some time in the |NHL, they may still make a career out of something. Valentenko is still tryng to crack a roster spot, and Cepek's a goner.

This draft was miserable, and defnately gves TT haters ammo IMO.

Finally, 2007... He followed up 06 with a really solid draft year.

McDonough (who was given up on too early), Pacioretty, Subban, Weber, have all graduated to NHL player ability. Fortier, Stejskal, and Conboy have all spent sgnificant time in the AHL... Kishel is having a good Senior year, and torp is already out of our system.

Here's a little gripe I have since... Not another TT pick from 08 to now, has TOUCHED NHL ice. and from the look of things, they might not be very close to either.

Some prospects from those years are havng good seasons however... I just am not very satisfied that he hasn't made a single surprise pick n the past 4 years of drafting. (2008 draft is going on 5 years ago this next draft. )
Out of the 2008 selections, Kristo looks ok... Qualler I know has some fans, Missaien, Trunev and Johnson IMO are misses... 2009 Cichy and Simila look like misses, & 2010,& 11 are WAY too early to see anything from yet...

But the early returns of 09-11 have looked promising.

Now the bottom line is, what s he mssing out on? He seems to miss out on bigger centermen, and gritty bottom line players. I thnk it stems from drafting too safely.

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