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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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Old
11-21-2011, 08:56 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
I don't always agree with Dave Krieger, but he's spot-on here:

http://www.denverpost.com/krieger/ci...mpaign=twitter
Not really. EJ was fantastic last year and the writer implies that he was bad. Then the writer implies that Varlamov has already proven that he won't be a long term starter. Add in that the author completely ignores the trades last year that avs did very well on Bournival-O'Byrne, Hannan-Flash, and this becomes a very biased article clearly trying to support the notion that Sherman's trades haven't been ideal.

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11-21-2011, 10:36 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Not really. EJ was fantastic last year and the writer implies that he was bad. Then the writer implies that Varlamov has already proven that he won't be a long term starter. Add in that the author completely ignores the trades last year that avs did very well on Bournival-O'Byrne, Hannan-Flash, and this becomes a very biased article clearly trying to support the notion that Sherman's trades haven't been ideal.
EJ was decent when we got him I wouldnt say he was fantastic though. Bournival hasnt played a game in MTL yet but ROB is still a ****** and plays like hes 5'7. Hannan and flash trade is a wash for me since neither guy is playing for the team that traded for them. Krieger writing off Varly this early is stupid I agree. Varly is 23 years old and needs proper guidance and ahem a goalie coach. His confidence has been shattered. Look at his body language in the Boston game compared to the Dallas game. Its like he summoned the spirit of Peter Budaj and Phillipe Sauve in that Dallas game.

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11-21-2011, 11:18 AM
  #153
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I think the article is tendentious. Lacroix had a lot of swings and misses too. The Roy trade, while it was extremely fortunate for Avs, isn't indicative of his reign. There were plenty of trades where we gave up more than we should, but since we had a wealth of riches people didn't care until after Lacroix was gone.

Secondly, pretty much all of the Sherman trades are trades that won't be able to be evaluated for years. They involve very young players and draft picks. Jumping on Varlamov now is a gimmie. I'm sure the tune will change when Varlamovs play does.

That the organization could use new blood from the outside in the front office and among the coaches I agree with. The only tie to the championship era that's worth hanging on to is Sakic.
How much is money playing into the decisions the front office is and isn't making? Serious question.

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11-21-2011, 11:32 AM
  #154
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How much is money playing into the decisions the front office is and isn't making? Serious question.
There are a lot of signs that point to Avs being on a tight budget.

No prospect camps on ice.
Coaching staff that's probably the most inexpensive in the league (no goalie coach, consisting entirely of inexperienced coaches who probably aren't making all that much money)
Bringing back a coach with beyond fireable record for his last year.
When the cap floor goes up we hug it by a few thousand dollars.
Rookie GM that's probably making 20% of what Burke does (not sure this is purely financial, I think PL don't want a strong GM).

There is no smoking gun type evidence, but a lot of circumstantial evidence pointing to Avs trying to run a low cost organization when possible.

It is what it is. I think what Avs does and doesn't do should be viewed with this context in mind but at the same time everyone involved says the team are allowed to spend to the cap. I think the truth is somewhere in between. The plan is probably that they are allowed to spend to the cap somewhere in the future but right now? Hell no.

the_fan, if you read this don't think I support your constant whinging. It is intolerable.


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11-21-2011, 11:57 AM
  #155
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I find it odd Sherman would keep Sacco this long with his job on the line.

So my assumption is Sherman is not at risk of losing his job if we don't make the playoffs or at the very least come close.

I hope I'm wrong.

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11-21-2011, 12:05 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
I find it odd Sherman would keep Sacco this long with his job on the line.

So my assumption is Sherman is not at risk of losing his job if we don't make the playoffs or at the very least come close.

I hope I'm wrong.
Or they don't want to pay two coaches at once.

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11-21-2011, 12:33 PM
  #157
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Or they don't want to pay two coaches at once.
You'd have to fail Economics & Business 101 to not see that icing a successful product will net you more money even if you pay for another coach for half a season that you're finishing the contract of the old coach.

I don't agree with the beliefs that money is the problem here, I fully believe that we're seeing a stubborn President that doesn't perform his job fully, a novice GM that can't make a trade and isn't being pressured to remove Sacco and an inexperienced coach that has lost his team and doesn't know what else to do.

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11-21-2011, 01:29 PM
  #158
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Not really. EJ was fantastic last year and the writer implies that he was bad. Then the writer implies that Varlamov has already proven that he won't be a long term starter. Add in that the author completely ignores the trades last year that avs did very well on Bournival-O'Byrne, Hannan-Flash, and this becomes a very biased article clearly trying to support the notion that Sherman's trades haven't been ideal.
EJ was promising, hardly fantastic. Made plenty of mistakes, just like he is now.

And really, he deserves credit for the Flash trade, but how much? I know it wasn't his fault that TF was lost for the season, but he chose to let him walk (and I still believe they didn't even try to make an offer) and the team still ended up in the cellar. Also, you can argue very strongly that one of the reasons our D became so undersized and soft was because Sherman traded away one of our few big defenders (Hannan), traded for a smallish one (Hunwick) and then lost Quincey to injury not long thereafter. The fact he let Sacco ice a blueline that featured a combination of Liles, Hunwick, Shattenkirk, AND Cumiskey means he didn't prepare well for such a contingency. Obviously he agreed since he summarily booted every last undersized defenseman off the team.


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11-21-2011, 01:55 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
You'd have to fail Economics & Business 101 to not see that icing a successful product will net you more money even if you pay for another coach for half a season that you're finishing the contract of the old coach.

I don't agree with the beliefs that money is the problem here, I fully believe that we're seeing a stubborn President that doesn't perform his job fully, a novice GM that can't make a trade and isn't being pressured to remove Sacco and an inexperienced coach that has lost his team and doesn't know what else to do.
What I see here is a president and GM that are trying to survive until they can hire Patrick Roy at the end of the season.

They can hardly promote Quinn then demote him again back to AHL or as an assistant coach to Roy. They also can't hire another coach temporary until the end of the season as it would look very bad if he does well and get fire for Roy. And they can't promote Lefebvre/Deadmarsh to acting coach without the risk of doing even worst for the rest of the season.

It really looks to me that their hands are tied until the season is over. They can see just like us that there isn't any solution out there at the moment to take over the head coaching job.

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11-21-2011, 02:02 PM
  #160
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What I see here is a president and GM that are trying to survive until they can hire Patrick Roy at the end of the season.

They can hardly promote Quinn then demote him again back to AHL or as an assistant coach to Roy. They also can't hire another coach temporary until the end of the season as it would look very bad if he does well and get fire for Roy. And they can't promote Lefebvre/Deadmarsh to acting coach without the risk of doing even worst for the rest of the season.

It really looks to me that their hands are tied until the season is over. They can see just like us that there isn't any solution out there at the moment to take over the head coaching job.
If that's the case Roy better knock it out of the park considering the Avs could have made a coaching change during the offseason.

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11-21-2011, 02:29 PM
  #161
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What I see here is a president and GM that are trying to survive until they can hire Patrick Roy at the end of the season.

They can hardly promote Quinn then demote him again back to AHL or as an assistant coach to Roy. They also can't hire another coach temporary until the end of the season as it would look very bad if he does well and get fire for Roy. And they can't promote Lefebvre/Deadmarsh to acting coach without the risk of doing even worst for the rest of the season.

It really looks to me that their hands are tied until the season is over. They can see just like us that there isn't any solution out there at the moment to take over the head coaching job.
They could easily promote Quinn as an interim and then make him an assitant to Roy after the season. Teams have done this before, and it's not that weird.

I agree though, Sacco would have been gone weeks ago if they had some decent choices to replace him with.

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11-21-2011, 02:51 PM
  #162
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They could easily promote Quinn as an interim and then make him an assitant to Roy after the season. Teams have done this before, and it's not that weird.

I agree though, Sacco would have been gone weeks ago if they had some decent choices to replace him with.
it is a possibility of course but Quinn would have to agree with this first or it could be very upsetting for Quinn and look very bad if he does very well.

I actually would like to have Quinn as the defensive assistant coach. He did very well in that tenure at BU and the team starting to have problem defensively when he left. In fact Shatty had a pretty bad year defensively after Quinn left.

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11-21-2011, 07:01 PM
  #163
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EJ was promising, hardly fantastic. Made plenty of mistakes, just like he is now.

And really, he deserves credit for the Flash trade, but how much? I know it wasn't his fault that TF was lost for the season, but he chose to let him walk (and I still believe they didn't even try to make an offer) and the team still ended up in the cellar. Also, you can argue very strongly that one of the reasons our D became so undersized and soft was because Sherman traded away one of our few big defenders (Hannan), traded for a smallish one (Hunwick) and then lost Quincey to injury not long thereafter. The fact he let Sacco ice a blueline that featured a combination of Liles, Hunwick, Shattenkirk, AND Cumiskey means he didn't prepare well for such a contingency. Obviously he agreed since he summarily booted every last undersized defenseman off the team.
I agree with everything you said. From the article about flash before FA period, it is clear that the avs were not going to make flash an offer. I'm glad he got good money and is doing well. It was obvious that the FO was counting on mules to come back healthy and play well like he did before getting the concussion.

I really believe that the only way the avs will ever win another cup is with a new owner. Kroenke won't fire PL and his yes men. PL did some good things, but it's time for new blood in the FO and coaching staff. Keeping it in the family has gotten this team into a stale state.

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11-21-2011, 09:15 PM
  #164
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Another thing that never gets mentioned around here: Sherman was the cap guy for Giguere. The same Giguere that managed to get us in cap trouble with an old, slow, brittle, and soft Avs team that managed to finish low enough for the third overall pick. Only Dater mentioned it when Sherman was hired, but it seems to be forgotten by most Avs fans. He's supposed to be a numbers guy, and he failed in that regard.

Though his boss at the time should rightfully get the majority of the blame for that, it doesn't completely absolve him either.

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11-21-2011, 10:22 PM
  #165
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Another thing that never gets mentioned around here: Sherman was the cap guy for Giguere. The same Giguere that managed to get us in cap trouble with an old, slow, brittle, and soft Avs team that managed to finish low enough for the third overall pick. Only Dater mentioned it when Sherman was hired, but it seems to be forgotten by most Avs fans. He's supposed to be a numbers guy, and he failed in that regard.

Though his boss at the time should rightfully get the majority of the blame for that, it doesn't completely absolve him either.
I think Sherman has done a solid job with contracts. Trades... sometimes not so much.

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11-29-2011, 01:34 PM
  #166
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At what point do Sherman's trades/acquisitions start paying off? As of right now, we're not seeing much:

Lindstrom: Waived
Johnson: Has not played to expectations
Hejda: Team-worst minus-16 rating, relative Corsi # of -10.9.
Hunwick: Do I really need to elaborate?
Varlamov: Has not played to expectations
Kobascrew: Still sporting a -6 rating despite limited minutes

I've left Giguere, O'Brien, and McClement off the list simply because they have met or exceeded very modest expectations.

Before you jump down my throad about EJ, I don't hate the trade--what I DO hate is an outright failure to address the holes in the lineup that trade caused. EJ will pan out to be a good defender in time, but right now, he's been a gigantic disappointment, as have been most of the other players Sherman had acquired.

Part of this can be put on the coach, but not all of it. I'd really like to see the Sherman defenders explain to me how this is all going according to plan.

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11-29-2011, 02:15 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
At what point do Sherman's trades/acquisitions start paying off? As of right now, we're not seeing much:

Lindstrom: Waived
Johnson: Has not played to expectations
Hejda: Team-worst minus-16 rating, relative Corsi # of -10.9.
Hunwick: Do I really need to elaborate?
Varlamov: Has not played to expectations
Kobascrew: Still sporting a -6 rating despite limited minutes

I've left Giguere, O'Brien, and McClement off the list simply because they have met or exceeded very modest expectations.

Before you jump down my throad about EJ, I don't hate the trade--what I DO hate is an outright failure to address the holes in the lineup that trade caused. EJ will pan out to be a good defender in time, but right now, he's been a gigantic disappointment, as have been most of the other players Sherman had acquired.

Part of this can be put on the coach, but not all of it. I'd really like to see the Sherman defenders explain to me how this is all going according to plan.

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11-29-2011, 02:17 PM
  #168
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Okay, did I say something ridiculous?

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11-29-2011, 02:23 PM
  #169
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I just find you're blind hatred for sherman kinda ridiculous. "if you ignore these moves I liked all of his moves have been terrible...even though some of them aren't really terrible and I'm just going to say they are." Is a pretty god awful point.

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11-29-2011, 02:26 PM
  #170
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Kobasew has been fine when put in a role that he can handle. EJ has played well for the most part. Only if you had unrealistic expectations of what he was at this point in his career can you be disappointed. Varly has just started here.

Hunwick was a bad trade, made worse by Quincey getting injured and us having a smurf defense. Hejda has been a disappointment. I can't believe this is the player I saw in Columbus. I have no idea what our coaches instruct him to do, but he is not playing to his strengths.

Sherman has done a good job. This team should be able to play so much better than they currently are.

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11-29-2011, 02:29 PM
  #171
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Kobasew has been fine when put in a role that he can handle. EJ has played well for the most part. Only if you had unrealistic expectations of what he was at this point in his career can you be disappointed. Varly has just started here.

Hunwick was a bad trade, made worse by Quincey getting injured and us having a smurf defense. Hejda has been a disappointment. I can't believe this is the player I saw in Columbus. I have no idea what our coaches instruct him to do, but he is not playing to his strengths.

Sherman has done a good job. This team should be able to play so much better than they currently are.
Hunwick's the only move that was a bad addition and even he didn't cost us anything of significance.

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11-29-2011, 02:34 PM
  #172
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I just find you're blind hatred for sherman kinda ridiculous. "if you ignore these moves I liked all of his moves have been terrible...even though some of them aren't really terrible and I'm just going to say they are." Is a pretty god awful point.
I don't think my hatred of Sherman is "blind." Just saying those depth acquisitions are fine, but the big moves are sputtering bad. But if that's the way you're interpreting me, to each his own.

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11-29-2011, 03:02 PM
  #173
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Kobasew has been fine when put in a role that he can handle. EJ has played well for the most part. Only if you had unrealistic expectations of what he was at this point in his career can you be disappointed. Varly has just started here.

Hunwick was a bad trade, made worse by Quincey getting injured and us having a smurf defense. Hejda has been a disappointment. I can't believe this is the player I saw in Columbus. I have no idea what our coaches instruct him to do, but he is not playing to his strengths.

Sherman has done a good job. This team should be able to play so much better than they currently are.
I know it's blasphemous, but I generally think Sherman has done a solid job. However, I don't understand why Sacco has gotten the benefit of a copious amount of doubts.

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11-29-2011, 03:03 PM
  #174
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I think it's a fair point. His moves haven't paid the kind of dividends expected or hoped for to justify the moves. The original question was at what point do they start paying off?

EJ is obvisouly still a bit of a work in progress and he has played well, but he was expected to take a bigger step forward in his development this year than he has.

Hejda was expected to be a capable top pair partner to stay at home and cover for EJ, not try to rush the puck himself, and then slowly degress in his overall play game after game, to the point that he's a mess even in a lesser role.

Varly was expected to be a stabalizing force in net, and hoped to return to form where he can steal games, and make big saves. He started strong, then fell off a bit, and is slowly going in the right direction, but hasn't quite hit the level yet that is needed.

Kobasew was expected to be a solid depth winger, and hoped to be a scoring threat on a top line. He's been neither, and doesn't look to fit in at all with the team.

Lindstrom was expected to be a depth scorer, and hoped to be a scoring threat on a top line, as a back up plan to the departed Flash and concussed Mueller. He hasn't found any sort of consistency or chemistry, and has now been waived.

Flash and Elliott are having outstanding seasons so far for other teams.

O'Brien's been great in his role, and Giggy has been about what expected in his veteran backup role. McClement also has been great in a 4th line role.

These positives for lesser roles in no way make it a wash for the guys in big roles that haven't really hit their expectations. Time obvisouly should be given to EJ and Varly, but it's still a fair point that Sherman's recent bigger moves have not panned out as hoped yet.

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11-29-2011, 03:54 PM
  #175
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EJ and Varly are 23, guys at 23 are still hugely inconsistent. Look at any other young stud Dman asked to carry the #1 role, see Myers, Doughty, etc. or any other young goaler asked to carry the load, again see guys like Price and Fleury. It's what happens with young players. They're already paying off because we have them in the organization for the future. Kinda like how it's ok that Dutchy struggled really badly at the start of the year or how Radar has had massive cold streaks between his early season and late season hot streaks in every year of his career so far.

Kobascrew has been perfectly fine when he gets to play bottom 6 like he deserves. Just look at the last few games where Porter-McClement-Kobascrew have been our best line.

Hejda's been a disappointment but I wouldn't be shocked to see his play turn around completely once he's got a coach who doesn't befuddle him so much. Hejda's problem is that he's playing completely outside of himself, trying to do things that he's just never been really good at. That's not exactly incoherent with the gripe of players having no clue what Sacco expects from them.

Lindstrom was a bust, but he was a worst case scenario depth signing, so missing there isn't really even close to a fireable offense.

I'm all aboard the replace Sacco now train, but Sherman's done a really good job and actually has this team in a position where the pieces are in place to develop into a SC caliber team a couple years down the line. Add a top line winger, top 4 dman, quality coach and a couple years and we can contend with any team in the league.

Mueller/Hishon-Dutchy-new guy
Lando-Staz-Jones
Galiardi-Radar-Winnik
Porter-Malone-who cares

Siemens/New guy - EJ
Quincey - Elliott
Gaunce/Wilson/O'Brien - Barrie

Varly
Pickard


Last edited by cgf: 11-29-2011 at 04:00 PM.
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