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Habs dominate bruins. Lose 1-0

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11-22-2011, 11:30 AM
  #326
MathMan
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
But it's the 7th time we've been held to one goal or less.
Of these, more than half (at least Buffalo, Florida, Edmonton, and Boston just now) were due to fantastic goaltending performances in front of an otherwise dominant Habs club.

Which is excruciatingly frustrating.

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11-22-2011, 11:32 AM
  #327
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Starting to get the ugly feeling that Montreal is a .500 team at best, no playoffs this year. I'm usually positive, but young defense & were not scoring.

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11-22-2011, 11:49 AM
  #328
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Of these, more than half (at least Buffalo, Florida, Edmonton, and Boston just now) were due to fantastic goaltending performances in front of an otherwise dominant Habs club.

Which is excruciatingly frustrating.
I'll give you Thomas because he's arguably the best in the league...

But Florida? Really? Why is it that we always manage to make below average goalies look spectacular? At what point is it us and not the goaltending?

We've seen this for years now. We make average goalies look awesome. If it was just this year? Okay. But this has happened forever for us.

We've added Cole and MaxPac with positive results. I think we need to continue down this path and get a little bigger and dirtier with our play. It doesn't mean we have to become the Broad Street Bullies, but we need a better mix. We can't just keep saying its 'luck' or great goaltending because it's been going on for too long now.

Fortunately though, Markov (should he actually return healthy) will make a difference here.

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11-22-2011, 11:51 AM
  #329
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Over all, a well played loss. Hurts not to get the points (and leap frog Boston) still all the same.

I know I am beating a dead horse (a dead horse for quite some time now) however, a few points.

JM- You are killing me man, Gomez getting way too many pp minutes. I know he won some big faceoffs on our limited PPs last night (which was massive because we had trouble setting up in the zone) but STILL, why?? And all of a sudden, part way through the game JM starts messing with his lines again. I'd be a happy man to wake up and hear JM is gone. We need passion, and intensity IMO. But, what do I know


Eller on the wing?? This foolishness has got to stop. Sticking a skill oriented player on the wing, with Gomez and Moen? Eller has been playing the best hockey of his young career while at the center position

Gomez..Ugh.. I know he is trying, and yes, playing "better", but at what cost? Eller has dropped his play dramatically since Gomez came back. I know AK was a big big loss to our 3rd line, but I almost feel like Gomez' return to that line has hurt it just as much as AK's departure

I actually thought our young D core did ok last night. Emelin had another good physical game, few less mistakes last night. Georges hit on Lucic was beautiful. We held Boston to what, 18 shots?

Cole- I love you sir. Best player on the ice again last night

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11-22-2011, 12:06 PM
  #330
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But Florida? Really? Why is it that we always manage to make below average goalies look spectacular? At what point is it us and not the goaltending?
Are you honestly going to tell me that the Habs didn't outplay Florida and force Markstrom to have an amazing game to win that? Are you honestly going to tell me that a goalie playing average (as opposed to an average goalie) or even less-than-dominant would've won that for Florida?

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11-22-2011, 12:11 PM
  #331
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Are you honestly going to tell me that the Habs didn't outplay Florida and force Markstrom to have an amazing game to win that? Are you honestly going to tell me that a goalie playing average (as opposed to an average goalie) or even less-than-dominant would've won that for Florida?
No.

I'm going to tell you that we weren't able to score on a below average goalie. And I'm asking you why.

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11-22-2011, 12:15 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'm going to tell you that we weren't able to score on a below average goalie. And I'm asking you why.
Because, in the NHL, sometimes even below-average goalies come up with fantastic games. Or stretches of games: your "below-average goalie" has a .944 save percentage this year in 5 games.

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11-22-2011, 12:19 PM
  #333
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Because, in the NHL, sometimes even below-average goalies come up with fantastic games.
Why does this seem to happen to us more than others? Why are we consistently bottom 3rd in scoring?
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Or stretches of games: your "below-average goalie" has a .944 save percentage this year in 5 games.
How much of that is due to us?

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11-22-2011, 12:22 PM
  #334
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Starting to get the ugly feeling that Montreal is a .500 team at best, no playoffs this year. I'm usually positive, but young defense & were not scoring.
You know there's this guy who was a top 5 d-man in the world before he got injured that's missing right now...

It's actually surprising to me that we're still a .500 team even with all those injuries. With Markov back this team is going to be good.

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11-22-2011, 12:24 PM
  #335
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Why does this seem to happen to us more than others? Why are we consistently bottom 3rd in scoring?
Up until 2009-2010, because the team sucked. Even 2007-2008 when they were decidedly not bottom third, was mostly shooting luck especially on the PP.

2010-2011, bad luck shooting 5-on-5.

2011-2012, so far, bad luck shooting 5-on-4. It'll come.

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How much of that is due to us?
Well, seeing as the extreme upper bound would have to be 20%, as it was one of the five games, I'm gonna guess "not a whole lot, really".

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11-22-2011, 12:26 PM
  #336
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Up until 2009-2010, because the team sucked. Even 2007-2008 when they were decidedly not bottom third, was mostly shooting luck especially on the PP.

2010-2011, bad luck shooting 5-on-5.

2011-2012, so far, bad luck shooting 5-on-4. It'll come.
Where will we be by the end of the year? Top ten in goals scored?
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Well, seeing as the extreme upper bound would have to be 20%, as it was one of the five games, I'm gonna guess "not a whole lot, really".
So this guy is a Hasek in waiting?

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11-22-2011, 12:29 PM
  #337
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Where will we be by the end of the year? Top ten in goals scored?
The shot metrics do point in that direction. I'm going to hedge and say top half, to account for the 20 games already played. There's no such thing as karma and the Habs are not more likely to go on a shooting spree just because they've been unlucky to start the season.

It's just a matter of fixing the PP (even if one doesn't buy the luck explanation, hopefully the Markov explanation will work) while maintaining 5-on-5 scoring.

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So this guy is a Hasek in waiting?
Probably not, but any NHL goalie can look like Hasek over 5 games, let alone 1.

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11-22-2011, 12:34 PM
  #338
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No.

I'm going to tell you that we weren't able to score on a below average goalie. And I'm asking you why.
Remember Scott Clemmensen's amazing run with the Devils?
Remember a certain Jim Carey?

Do you really need a list of examples of average goalies having amazing years or streaks?

We dominated the Panthers, and if it weren't for their average goalie pulling out an amazing performance, they would have lost. Same thing for Buffalo with Miller stealing the show, and Thomas yesterday. Even Khabibulin in Edmonton, played like he did when he won the cup.

It's not a coincidence that we outshot all those teams (144 shots for/84 shots against), and all of the goalies (Miller, Markstrom, Thomas, Khabibulin) were 1st stars.

We didn't make it easy on them, shots were not on the outside, heck, versus Edmonton, we had more scoring chances than they had shots. We also have players that crash the net often, so that theory can also be thrown out.

Give those goalies credit, no matter how good or average they may be.

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11-22-2011, 12:35 PM
  #339
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The shot metrics do point in that direction. I'm going to hedge and say top half, to account for the 20 games already played. There's no such thing as karma and the Habs are not more likely to go on a shooting spree just because they've been unlucky to start the season.

It's just a matter of fixing the PP (even if one doesn't buy the luck explanation, hopefully the Markov explanation will work) while maintaining 5-on-5 scoring.
Okay, so from this point on we'll be top ten then?
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Probably not, but any NHL goalie can look like Hasek over 5 games, let alone 1.
Well, it seems to happen to us with a fair bit of frequency.

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11-22-2011, 12:36 PM
  #340
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The shot metrics do point in that direction. I'm going to hedge and say top half, to account for the 20 games already played. There's no such thing as karma and the Habs are not more likely to go on a shooting spree just because they've been unlucky to start the season.

It's just a matter of fixing the PP (even if one doesn't buy the luck explanation, hopefully the Markov explanation will work) while maintaining 5-on-5 scoring.



Probably not, but any NHL goalie can look like Hasek over 5 games, let alone 1.
100% agree.

These goalies are in the NHL or called up to the NHL for a reason. They're damn good goalies. Look at Curtis Sanford in the last couple games, it proves that any goalie can burn any team at any given game. Markstrom looked absolutely amazing in the game in florida, it was the best performance I have seen by a goalie this yr. Lafleur you have to realize that these things happen. I know you want to tank and rebuils ect so stop blaming the team for everything. We're in the NHL not pee wee. These goalies are professionals and thats why they are good.

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11-22-2011, 12:38 PM
  #341
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Okay, so from this point on we'll be top ten then?
I think that's the most probable outcome.

The downside of probablistic models, constant uncertainty.

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Well, it seems to happen to us with a fair bit of frequency.
Imagine how they must feel in LA.

BTW, the Habs have scored 4 goals or more in 7 games, too. (They lost two.)

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11-22-2011, 12:53 PM
  #342
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I think that's the most probable outcome.

The downside of probablistic models, constant uncertainty.
Okay, that's cool. I guess we'll see how it turns out. For the record, I do expect a bit of a bump from Markov.

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11-22-2011, 12:55 PM
  #343
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Personally, I always considered Bruins/Habs as the best rivalry in all sports. I guess fans of other sports or other nhl teams would disagree with me. But this rivalry goes back many years. I'm 48 and it's always been there since I've been watching.

You can't get the feeling unless you actually have respect for the other team in this fierce rivalry. I have plenty of respect for the Habs. Most times we say"we hate the Bruins or Habs", but again, with its rich history, you gotta respect what these 2 teams have given us!!
Would hockey be the same for you Hab fans if the Bruins somehow folded as a team?? It would never ever be the same for me if it happened to Montreal. We;d be losing alot..
Great point. I both "hate" and greatly respect the Habs. If you are a hockey fan how can you not love the history assoc. with that team, and the great players who have played there...I love playing you guys, love seeing the red sweaters, love hearing the Can. National Anthem...it's just great stuff...as for the game, the Bs won that game on Thomas' back, with their guts, and their defensive system. They were lucky to be out of the 1st with a 1-0 lead, they didn't play their best all game, but they found a way to win and were able to contain Mtl despite their territorial advantage. I also thought Chara had one of the best games I have ever seen him play against the Habs...he was immense. Bs transition play was sloppy, terrible in the neutral zone, but they were disciplined enough in their own end. When do they play next? Can't wait.

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11-22-2011, 12:58 PM
  #344
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Too bad the Habs couldn't score first.

Where was the Gomez laddie on the Ference goal? He arrived a bit late to backcheck, no? I mean, isn't a center supposed to do that? I'm afraid he's a straw man defensively as well as offensively. I'd advise him not to stand too close to an electric fan.

The only Hab who disappointed from the opening faceoff to the final buzzer was the overrated Pernell Karl Subban. The only useful thing he did was to receive a Pouliot high stick. Allstar? Superstar? I have my doubts.

As expected, Emelin made himself known. It would be a disgrace to sit him in favor of Gill (or either of the Swissies). I know, Martin can send St-Denis to Hamilton before he has to make a hard decision.
Disgraceful post.

Blame Subban and give Martin a pass.

Subban's game has changed and it is because Martin has definitely reined him in and his style of play.

Subban is a round peg and Martin is trying to pound him into his square version of hockey. Obviously we are seeing the results of that.

Typical Martin trying to force his style of hockey on a team that suffers for it. And typical of the Martin apologists to blame the players in Martin's dumb ass and wrong system instead of the man responsible for it.

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11-22-2011, 01:03 PM
  #345
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Disgraceful post.

Blame Subban and give Martin a pass.

Subban's game has changed and it is because Martin has definitely reined him in and his style of play.

Subban is a round peg and Martin is trying to pound him into his square version of hockey. Obviously we are seeing the results of that.

Typical Martin trying to force his style of hockey on a team that suffers for it. And typical of the Martin apologists to blame the players in Martin's dumb ass and wrong system instead of the man responsible for it.
Just wondering, as an outsider looking in (from Boston), what are the major issues Montreal fans have with Martin? What specifically about his system is holding the team back? I know you guys have probably rehashed this a thousand times, but I'm just curious as someone who doesn't watch the team play on a daily basis.

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11-22-2011, 01:03 PM
  #346
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Okay, so from this point on we'll be top ten then?

Well, it seems to happen to us with a fair bit of frequency.
First off, totally have to say I also believe that the team is much to easy to shut down.

Twice shut out, 7 times 1 goal or less, and 11 times 2 goals or less...

These are not nice statistics to look at. The proof is there to collaborate Lafleurs Guy's claim.
Furthermore, just watching the game you can see the offensive mess we have here. When we're not clicking, it seems like none of the crucial shots hit the net, or passes in the slot get picked off... CONSISTENTLY.

But i do disagree about Markstrom... He may not be a Hasek... But he WILL become a formidable rival against Price... Markstrom is the future of swedish goaltending (and that was said while Lundqvist was makihng a bunch of noise in NY.

He's a good talent to be sure, and was incredible in that game.

I dont buy the 'hot goalie' claim though. This is the toughest league for hockey in the planet. Our guys should have faced hot goalies and learned how to beat them WAY before coming to the Show.

Gionta and Cole were the only 2 getting under TT skin last night. Otherwise it was a bunch of fanciness with little results. That's why it was an easy win last night. Dont get me wrong, other guys WERE physical... they just weren't willing to pay the price where it counted...

This is also why I commented that I agreed that AK46 was missed last night. Because he likes to cut in front of the net as well.

Positives were the D-corps, Gio, Moen & Cole. The rest was meh.

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11-22-2011, 01:04 PM
  #347
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I didn't watch the game, but based on # of shots (33 vs 17 ?), it seems that Habs played a good game, no ?
Please, for the last time, shots on goal is a misleading statistic.

It is an unimportant statistic. The Habs fired shots right at Tim Thomas where he had a clear view of almost every shot.

Let me repeat that.

If we fired 100 shots at Tim Thomas where he sees the puck, he is probably going to stop all 100 shots.

Martin's offensive "system" is to throw pucks at the net with no one in front, no one in position to capitalize on a rebound.

To say we outplayed the Bruins because we threw a lot of easy shots at Thomas is insane.

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11-22-2011, 01:05 PM
  #348
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100% agree.

These goalies are in the NHL or called up to the NHL for a reason. They're damn good goalies. Look at Curtis Sanford in the last couple games, it proves that any goalie can burn any team at any given game. Markstrom looked absolutely amazing in the game in florida, it was the best performance I have seen by a goalie this yr. Lafleur you have to realize that these things happen. I know you want to tank and rebuils ect so stop blaming the team for everything. We're in the NHL not pee wee. These goalies are professionals and thats why they are good.
Dude... what are you talking about?

All we're talking about is the Habs offense. This has nothing to do with tanking or anything else.

As for "blaming" them for not scoring. Well, who are we supposed to look at when the club is consistently in the bottom 3rd of the league for scoring?

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11-22-2011, 01:15 PM
  #349
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Just wondering, as an outsider looking in (from Boston), what are the major issues Montreal fans have with Martin? What specifically about his system is holding the team back? I know you guys have probably rehashed this a thousand times, but I'm just curious as someone who doesn't watch the team play on a daily basis.
Defense first. He rarely engages our DMen on offense like the Bruins D do. Remember the good ole days when Montreal had DMen who scored a lot of goals?

Passive forecheck. Martin thinks its more important to send everyone back to our zone than to attack the other team before they reach the red line.

Dumps and chases with a small team. We have the speed to carry the puck in.

Does not teach this team patience with the puck. When one of our players are challenged, the puck goes somewhere quickly......seldom on a tape to tape pass.

Very little net presence. The Bruins ALWAYS have someone in front of Price. The Habs......hardly ever.

Idiotic PP choices. Plekanec is not a Point player on the power play but he is there all the time. Our PP is ineffective and still looks the same as it did on Game One. Very predictable. We do not have give an goes on the PP. We seldom have someone attacking the net from the weak side. Almost always straight up where a goalie does not have to move side to side.

Poor personnel choices. We have Darche. Enough said. Martin thinks he is a god. We have young centers playing wing and when not perfoming, are benched.

Martin is a tool. The one thing that he has going for him is that a LOT of Canadiens fans are happy with early playoff exits and fighting for the 8th place......as they support Martin very strongly.

Mediocrity in Montreal is the new norm.

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11-22-2011, 01:16 PM
  #350
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Dude... what are you talking about?

All we're talking about is the Habs offense. This has nothing to do with tanking or anything else.

As for "blaming" them for not scoring. Well, who are we supposed to look at when the club is consistently in the bottom 3rd of the league for scoring?
Again... good post

I just wanted to pipe in and say for the majority of 15 years, the Canadiens had problems scoring.

I remember in 1996, we had a bunch of passers and no shooters... I dont think we ever really recovered since.

We go nuts over a 30 goal guy. Imagine if we could actually have someone pop 40 goals for us again

This is what the whole issue is though. We add a bunch of talent, and they all consistently dwindle their PPG stats (as much as 0.3 PG!)

Our Defence is good, our goaltending is awesome. The forwards leave much more to be desired however. It's their responsibility to put the puck in the net.

Our lack of offensive drive, is the reason we couldnt escape our fate against Boston OR Philly in the playoffs the past 2 yeaars.

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