HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The Official Trade Carle and Meszaros Thread

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-22-2011, 12:11 PM
  #26
BringBackStevens
Registered User
 
BringBackStevens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 12,079
vCash: 500
Anyone who actually thinks mez was our best defenseman last year is an idiot

BringBackStevens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 12:22 PM
  #27
tytech
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,355
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Anyone who actually thinks mez was our best defenseman last year is an idiot
Look at your handle

tytech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 12:24 PM
  #28
BringBackStevens
Registered User
 
BringBackStevens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 12,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tytech View Post
Look at your handle
Real funny. This team could use some Stevens team building right about now

BringBackStevens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 12:28 PM
  #29
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,591
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Anyone who actually thinks mez was our best defenseman last year is an idiot
I'd say it was pretty damned close between him and Timonen. Definitely wasn't Pronger, Coburn, or Carle. Pronger played well, but wasn't the best defenseman and missed a considerable amount of time. I know everyone loves all the sabremetric stats instead of actually watching the guy play or looking at "old" stats, so I'll throw out some stats. Mez and Kimmo had similar Goals Created and Offensive Point Shares, but Mez had a higher Defensive Point Share and higher overall Point Share. He also had a higher +/- and a lower number of total goals scored while on ice. What more do you want from a defenseman?

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 12:28 PM
  #30
RoDu
Shagga likes axes
 
RoDu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,469
vCash: 500
yeah we need some more cakes and puppy drawings

RoDu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 12:43 PM
  #31
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyFlying View Post
show me realistic upgrade options and i'll listen.

last night proved we've got nothing all that promising waiting to break out of the A.
I'd go with this. Even if Bourdon and Marshall did ok, we can't count on them to step in and play regularly.

I wouldn't mind seeing a trade of Carle + someone like Nödl for two solid d's in return (about 4M total in cap hit could be afforded to take back in this scenario, I think), so that we can push Lilja to the 7th spot for sure, and have Gustafsson and the rest in the AHL unless a serious injury occur. Don't know if there's a way to make such a trade work in reality however. Most teams are a bit reluctant to trade two solid d's at the same time, for some reason.

I don't think we need to look for trading Meszaros, but it's not like he is untouchable. If someone has the right offer, then go for it. Paying 4M for your fifth defensman is a bit pricey (though it's better than having guys like Modry or Krajicek in that position...).

I like Meszaros, and to say that he isn't a top four dman is a bit silly, but his shortcomings are still the same as they were when he was a rookie with the Sens. It's a little frustrating to see him take himself out of position so often. It would be nice if his shot was a bit more accurate as well, but that's not my main problem with him. And no, he wasn't our best defenseman last season.

mirimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 12:57 PM
  #32
brucewaynegretzky
Registered User
 
brucewaynegretzky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: DC
Country: United States
Posts: 101
vCash: 500
Mez plays mediocre for part of a season and people want him gone. Pronger plays poorly for close to a year a we give him the C. Makes sense....

brucewaynegretzky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 01:00 PM
  #33
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,491
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
.......to say that he isn't a top four dman is a bit silly, but his shortcomings are still the same as they were when he was a rookie with the Sens. It's a little frustrating to see him take himself out of position so often. It would be nice if his shot was a bit more accurate as well, but that's not my main problem with him. And no, he wasn't our best defenseman last season.
Quantify a bit? Everything that follows that initial statement pretty much supports the argument that at best he's an overpaid 5th D man until he steps it up and is more consistent especially when Pronger and Timonen and even Coburn are out since they all log big minutes. Again..maybe he will but if he doesn't I think the Flyers should look to move him and leverage some of that salary along with Carle's. That's all I'm saying. Has nothing to do with me not thinking he's an adequate D man it's just that you can get similar avg talent (if it continues) for less money.

I just want to see him take more of a leadership role back there on the D corps instead of just look like one of the crowd or a 5th D man. I especially wish he did more on the PP and honed his shot so that it's on net at least. With Carle we know we aren't getting any of that so he def needs to be upgraded since we need more production from the point. We can't rely on Pronger to do it all and teams adjust their PK scheme when you suck at generating shots from the point.

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 01:04 PM
  #34
Norm MacDonald
Registered User
 
Norm MacDonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 4,282
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'd say it was pretty damned close between him and Timonen. Definitely wasn't Pronger, Coburn, or Carle. Pronger played well, but wasn't the best defenseman and missed a considerable amount of time. I know everyone loves all the sabremetric stats instead of actually watching the guy play or looking at "old" stats, so I'll throw out some stats. Mez and Kimmo had similar Goals Created and Offensive Point Shares, but Mez had a higher Defensive Point Share and higher overall Point Share. He also had a higher +/- and a lower number of total goals scored while on ice. What more do you want from a defenseman?
Do that while playing against top lines.

Norm MacDonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 01:05 PM
  #35
brucewaynegretzky
Registered User
 
brucewaynegretzky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: DC
Country: United States
Posts: 101
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm MacDonald View Post
Do that while playing against top lines.
Mez did a lot actually because he spent so much time filling in for injured guys on the Top 4.

brucewaynegretzky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 01:15 PM
  #36
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
To Coutsiephan (quote function won't work for some reason):

His ice time and statistics (some of which DFF referenced above) suggest it, as well as his play. Carle, Coburn and Meszaros are all top 4 defenders. They are just frustrating as hell to watch at times. Most defenders are, if you watch them often enough. We've waited for Coburn to take that next step and be able to anchor his own pairing for years now. Meszaros has still to take that step as well, but that doesn't mean he isn't a top four guy.

Is he overpriced? Probably. Would we have to overpay the ufa we would bring in to replace him? Definitely.

mirimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 01:19 PM
  #37
John Wayne Gretzky
Registered User
 
John Wayne Gretzky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,085
vCash: 500
Our defenseman in order of best to worst

Timonen
Pronger
Meszaros
Coburn
Carle
Gustafsson
lilja

Mesz is overpaid? 4 mil is a steal for a dman of his calibur. Coburn makes more and im not sure what the raise was for because the dude is a turnover machine again, this is the Coburn from 2 seasons ago that sickened me.

Lets not jump to conclusions, we lost 2 ****ing games in a row, season isnt over. *******s man.

John Wayne Gretzky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 01:21 PM
  #38
brucewaynegretzky
Registered User
 
brucewaynegretzky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: DC
Country: United States
Posts: 101
vCash: 500
From BruceWayneGretzky to John Wayne Gretzky

/truth!

brucewaynegretzky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 01:34 PM
  #39
John Wayne Gretzky
Registered User
 
John Wayne Gretzky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,085
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucewaynegretzky View Post
From BruceWayneGretzky to John Wayne Gretzky

/truth!
Hahaha, what a coincidence.

John Wayne Gretzky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 01:38 PM
  #40
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,491
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
Hahaha, what a coincidence.
Yeah I bet...okay Carle and Mesz..reveal yourselves!

Ok if Wayne and Brent Gretzky come on here in support of Carle and Mesz I will concede...

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 01:43 PM
  #41
John Wayne Gretzky
Registered User
 
John Wayne Gretzky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,085
vCash: 500
I don't support Carle, I always thought he was mediocre, no matter how mediocre he is still a top 4 dman.

John Wayne Gretzky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 01:48 PM
  #42
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,491
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
I don't support Carle, I always thought he was mediocre, no matter how mediocre he is still a top 4 dman.
Not on all teams...he would be a 5th...Mesz is similar. In the playoffs Carle played like a bench or press box d man.

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 01:48 PM
  #43
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,591
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
I don't support Carle, I always thought he was mediocre, no matter how mediocre he is still a top 4 dman.
I think that is part of the problem with the OP's argument. 3/4 defenseman are not going to win the Norris trophy. That is why they are 3/4 defenseman. On this team we have Pronger and Timonen hands down 1/2. Then you have Coburn, Carle, and Mez who could easily be slotted in at 3/4. Look at other team's 3/4 pairing and tell me if you'd rather have them.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 01:53 PM
  #44
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,491
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think that is part of the problem with the OP's argument. 3/4 defenseman are not going to win the Norris trophy. That is why they are 3/4 defenseman. On this team we have Pronger and Timonen hands down 1/2. Then you have Coburn, Carle, and Mez who could easily be slotted in at 3/4. Look at other team's 3/4 pairing and tell me if you'd rather have them.
Again what part of my argument do you not understand about using the both of them as leverage this offseason for eventual replacements to Pronger and Timonen? Seriously....what was your SAT score on the english portion of the exam..actually what was it in math as well considering the issue of their salaries for the production they provide?

Anyway..I'm willing to see if Mesz puts it together. Carle I doubt will be more than what he is. However, if both continue to play mediocre then Holmgren needs to consider moving both if he wants to reload the D. If Richards and Carter can be traded I don't see how Carle and Mesz are immune to the same kind of logic of reconstituting the team..at least the defense corps.

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 02:00 PM
  #45
brucewaynegretzky
Registered User
 
brucewaynegretzky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: DC
Country: United States
Posts: 101
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coutsiephan View Post
Again what part of my argument do you not understand about using the both of them as leverage this offseason for eventual replacements to Pronger and Timonen? Seriously....what was your SAT score on the english portion of the exam..actually what was it in math as well considering the issue of their salaries for the production they provide?

Anyway..I'm willing to see if Mesz puts it together. Carle I doubt will be more than what he is. However, if both continue to play mediocre then Holmgren needs to consider moving both if he wants to reload the D. If Richards and Carter can be traded I don't see how Carle and Mesz are immune to the same kind of logic of reconstituting the team..at least the defense corps.
I'm starting to think you just don't have a realistic understanding of what level of defensemen are out there. Like has been said Coburn/Carle/Mez are ALL 3/4 D-men. Probably even above average 3/4's. I'd say Mez may even be at a 2-slot level. Who are these mythical people you want to bring in? Look at the D-corps of other teams and you'll see that this entire conversation is nonsense.

brucewaynegretzky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 02:01 PM
  #46
SeanCWombBroom
DownieFaceSoftener
 
SeanCWombBroom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,863
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm MacDonald View Post
Do that while playing against top lines.
I'll help your argument a bit.

In 2010-2011 season, removing Boynton and OD.

Mez had the lowest:

QUALITYCOMP score.
QUALITYTEAM score.
Corsi Rel QoC score.
Corsi QoC score.
Corsi Rel QoT score.
And Corsi QoT.

He faced lesser competition consistently, controlled play less against that competition, moved the puck up ice to generate shots less, etc.

It's not even close on some of them.

Kimmo's Corsi Relative Quality of Competition Score is:

1.024

Mez's (and I like Mez, these are just the facts):

0.089

Ow.

SeanCWombBroom is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 02:04 PM
  #47
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,591
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coutsiephan View Post
Again what part of my argument do you not understand about using the both of them as leverage this offseason for eventual replacements to Pronger and Timonen? Seriously....what was your SAT score on the english portion of the exam..actually what was it in math as well considering the issue of their salaries for the production they provide?

Anyway..I'm willing to see if Mesz puts it together. Carle I doubt will be more than what he is. However, if both continue to play mediocre then Holmgren needs to consider moving both if he wants to reload the D. If Richards and Carter can be traded I don't see how Carle and Mesz are immune to the same kind of logic of reconstituting the team..at least the defense corps.
I guess I don't understand the part of your argument about using a 3/4 defenseman (who in your opinion, doesn't seem to be a 3/4 defenseman because of his last stretch of games, despite what he has done the rest of his career) to bring in another 3/4 defenseman at a lower price. Also this part where you question whether or not he'll round back into form and if he has the mental fortitude to be a top 4 defenseman:

Quote:
We took on that contract b/c we consider him to be a top 4 D man....maybe he'll round back into form but i'm really starting to wonder about his mental fortitude.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 02:04 PM
  #48
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 38,253
vCash: 156
On a side note, I like how many "official" threads we've been having recently.

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Beef Invictus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 02:05 PM
  #49
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,591
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
I'll help your argument a bit.

In 2010-2011 season, removing Boynton and OD.

Mez had the lowest:

QUALITYCOMP score.
QUALITYTEAM score.
Corsi Rel QoC score.
Corsi QoC score.
Corsi Rel QoT score.
And Corsi QoT.

He faced lesser competition consistently, controlled play less against that competition, moved the puck up ice to generate shots less, etc.

It's not even close on some of them.

Kimmo's Corsi Relative Quality of Competition Score is:

1.024

Mez's (and I like Mez, these are just the facts):

0.089

Ow.
Where do you get those stats from? Not saying they are wrong, I just don't know where to look up those types of stats. Hockey-Reference only has a few player value stats.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-22-2011, 02:07 PM
  #50
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,491
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucewaynegretzky View Post
I'm starting to think you just don't have a realistic understanding of what level of defensemen are out there. Like has been said Coburn/Carle/Mez are ALL 3/4 D-men. Probably even above average 3/4's. I'd say Mez may even be at a 2-slot level. Who are these mythical people you want to bring in? Look at the D-corps of other teams and you'll see that this entire conversation is nonsense.
We're talking the Shea Weber's of the world. I'm not arguing Coburn and it's futile to do so considering they just extended him although if he craps out too I suppose he can be traded..he's not immune either. The logic here follows that IF you want to go after a high priced D man like a Weber-type even if Nashville says they can sign him and will then you have to shed salary. Carle is one obvious source and I'm saying Mesz is another. What's so difficult to comprehend here? Obviously if none of the high end D are available or we're priced out it becomes somewhat of a moot point and then you can just get rid of Carle and get somebody who can offer you more on the PP and is more physical. Mesz would be retained if he picks it up....

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:00 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.