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The Official Trade Carle and Meszaros Thread

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Old
11-22-2011, 03:07 PM
  #51
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Old
11-22-2011, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I guess I don't understand the part of your argument about using a 3/4 defenseman (who in your opinion, doesn't seem to be a 3/4 defenseman because of his last stretch of games, despite what he has done the rest of his career) to bring in another 3/4 defenseman at a lower price. Also this part where you question whether or not he'll round back into form and if he has the mental fortitude to be a top 4 defenseman:
I just explained it AGAIN. It all has to do with going after a high priced D man...jebus!

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11-22-2011, 03:12 PM
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We're talking the Shea Weber's of the world. I'm not arguing Coburn and it's futile to do so considering they just extended him although if he craps out too I suppose he can be traded..he's not immune either. The logic here follows that IF you want to go after a high priced D man like a Weber-type even if Nashville says they can sign him and will then you have to shed salary. Carle is one obvious source and I'm saying Mesz is another. What's so difficult to comprehend here? Obviously if none of the high end D are available or we're priced out it becomes somewhat of a moot point and then you can just get rid of Carle and get somebody who can offer you more on the PP and is more physical. Mesz would be retained if he picks it up....
HAHAHAHAHAHA.... we're just talking about Norris trophy candidates then? Ok... I stand by my assertion that you don't understand the typical skill level of average NHL defensemen. Coburn/Carle/Mez make up a solid defensive CORPS. The D works as a unit. I agree that we'll need a new #1 when Timmo/Pronger are gone, and that's where a guy like Weber MIGHT come in, but those guys aren't the norm around the league and you don't find many. Also the cap makes it so you can't have many of those guys on your team. There's a reason Weber will likely end up making twice what a guy like Mez makes.

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11-22-2011, 03:19 PM
  #54
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Would any teams be interested in Briere? IMO We'd still be alright offensively(wait a few months until Schenn's ready), we could use help more on defense, and cap space. What's Brieres value? Would he ever accept a trade? Am I the only one who's interested in trading Briere?

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11-22-2011, 03:20 PM
  #55
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Would any teams be interested in Briere? IMO We'd still be alright offensively(wait a few months until Schenn's ready), we could use help more on defense, and cap space. What's Brieres value? Would he ever accept a trade? Am I the only one who's interested in trading Briere?
Briere will not be traded. Never going to happen. Just reality. He's certainly slumping right now, but that's not really much of a reason to get rid of him so quickly. Also, you're WAY too optimistic about Schenn. It is far from certain what he will develop into.

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11-22-2011, 03:21 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by brucewaynegretzky View Post
HAHAHAHAHAHA.... we're just talking about Norris trophy candidates then? Ok... I stand by my assertion that you don't understand the typical skill level of average NHL defensemen. Coburn/Carle/Mez make up a solid defensive CORPS. The D works as a unit. I agree that we'll need a new #1 when Timmo/Pronger are gone, and that's where a guy like Weber MIGHT come in, but those guys aren't the norm around the league and you don't find many. Also the cap makes it so you can't have many of those guys on your team. There's a reason Weber will likely end up making twice what a guy like Mez makes.
Not sure what the whole gotcha sarcasm is about?? The understanding here that you seem to fail to grasp is that in the offseason it's our best chance to go after a replacement for Timonen and eventually Pronger and obviously a Norris candidate is such a replacement. Weber is one such candidate..if you even hope to go after him you are going to have to shed salary to work around that whole cap problem you bring up. Why not Mez and Carle ....and then you see what you can do with the draft which is supposed to be strong and we actually have pics or other free agents. There is just more than a few ways to get it all worked out without thinking you absolutely can't replace the Carle's and Mez's of the world. Again I'm not talking about Coburn..I consider him part of the 1-3 mix because of the minutes he logs and the fact he's still young and is a fluid skater good on the transition.

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11-22-2011, 03:28 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Coutsiephan View Post
Not sure what the whole gotcha sarcasm is about?? The understanding here that you seem to fail to grasp is that in the offseason it's our best chance to go after a replacement for Timonen and eventually Pronger and obviously a Norris candidate is such a replacement. Weber is one such candidate..if you even hope to go after him you are going to have to shed salary to work around that whole cap problem you bring up. Why not Mez and Carle ....and then you see what you can do with the draft which is supposed to be strong and we actually have pics or other free agents. There is just more than a few ways to get it all worked out without thinking you absolutely can't replace the Carle's and Mez's of the world. Again I'm not talking about Coburn..I consider him part of the 1-3 mix because of the minutes he logs and the fact he's still young and is a fluid skater good on the transition.
This doesn't change the fact that you want the team to cover THREE #1 D-man salaries while still supporting a quality team overall.... Basically your complaint seems to boil down to Mez and Carle don't play like a #1. We need at least three of those. They should also play at #1 level for 3/4 $$$.

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11-22-2011, 03:30 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by brucewaynegretzky View Post
Briere will not be traded. Never going to happen. Just reality. He's certainly slumping right now, but that's not really much of a reason to get rid of him so quickly. Also, you're WAY too optimistic about Schenn. It is far from certain what he will develop into.
I might be to optimistic about Schenn, but I feel either him or Couturier will be able to take over the 2nd center soon enough. This is more a move for the future. We trade Briere for picks, and/or prospects. Then we should have the cap to go after a big name d-man, and resign Jagr next season.

What do you think his value would be if he was traded though, and where would he accept a trade to?

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11-22-2011, 03:39 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by brucewaynegretzky View Post
This doesn't change the fact that you want the team to cover THREE #1 D-man salaries while still supporting a quality team overall.... Basically your complaint seems to boil down to Mez and Carle don't play like a #1. We need at least three of those. They should also play at #1 level for 3/4 $$$.
Timonen has 1 more year after this year and I think he drops to 3M...Pronger's hit isn't massive either. They can fit in another number 1 since Timonen likely will retire after 2012. The time will be this offseason to position themselves. It's not about effin Mez and Carle not playing like a number 1 it's about using them and their salaries as leverage to secure a much needed asset for the very near future while you can and then finding equally avg D men at reasonable prices. I'm not going to go on cap geek and go through all the different scenarios but it's not like it can't be worked out. I agree it might be tough to have a fairly solid corp but again I think it's doable but they will have to be pretty savy with shedding salary and replacing the right players.

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11-22-2011, 03:47 PM
  #60
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Without Timonen or Pronger Mesz, Carle and Conburn are overpaid overrated d-men.

I would move any of them plus Hartnell for any decent talent. whoever says that Carle/Coburn/Mesz will or help replace Pronger or Timonen does not know wth is going on.

and that does not mean I hate those players.


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11-22-2011, 03:48 PM
  #61
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Ur missing the whole point. Carle should be gone but I have no problem with Mesz and Coburn being the team's thrid and fourth best d-man. How many teams out there have a 3rd and 4th better than them?

The bigger problem is Timo and Prong's age. The question you SHOULD be asking yourself is: why do Coburn Carle Mesz have to do so much anyway?

The answer? They have old and decrepid 1st and 2nds. Latest news? Pronger has a virus. Hooray! We had to tolerate this guy not being avail half of last season and the POs, he's missed big chunk of this season, and now he's got a virus. An old geezer strain, I guess.

RETIRE, Pronger RETIRE. U are no good to us injured all the time.

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11-22-2011, 03:50 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coutsiephan View Post
Timonen has 1 more year after this year and I think he drops to 3M...Pronger's hit isn't massive either. They can fit in another number 1 since Timonen likely will retire after 2012. The time will be this offseason to position themselves. It's not about effin Mez and Carle not playing like a number 1 it's about using them and their salaries as leverage to secure a much needed asset for the very near future while you can and then finding equally avg D men at reasonable prices. I'm not going to go on cap geek and go through all the different scenarios but it's not like it can't be worked out. I agree it might be tough to have a fairly solid corp but again I think it's doable but they will have to be pretty savy with shedding salary and replacing the right players.
If you're talking about ditching Mez and Carle for Weber, I don't think you will get much argument from that. And that's fine and that is basically what you OP is saying, but throughout this thread you have also been insinuating, if not outright saying, that Carle and Mez are not top 4 defensemen and they need to go. I'd gladly give up about anyone on this team for Shea Weber, but that doesn't change the fact that Mez is a solid 3/4 player. I think that is what people are taking issue with here. Not the desire to acquire a top flight D-man, but the fact that you seem to be overlooking Mez's playing ability.

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11-22-2011, 03:53 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
If you're talking about ditching Mez and Carle for Weber, I don't think you will get much argument from that. And that's fine and that is basically what you OP is saying, but throughout this thread you have also been insinuating, if not outright saying, that Carle and Mez are not top 4 defensemen and they need to go. I'd gladly give up about anyone on this team for Shea Weber, but that doesn't change the fact that Mez is a solid 3/4 player. I think that is what people are taking issue with here. Not the desire to acquire a top flight D-man, but the fact that you seem to be overlooking Mez's playing ability.
That and his inability to understand the cap. Pronger's hit isn't going away if he retires. He signed the contract over 35. Also I'm not sure if he has correctly valued what it would take to get Weber. I think the overall problem is his inability to understand the realistic relationship between place on depth chart/ability/cap hit.

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11-22-2011, 03:57 PM
  #64
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Weber isn't a ufa this summer. Suter is the prize of the summer, unless he signs a new deal with Nashville before then. I would be absolutely thrilled if we could get him in a Flyers uni (I'm one of those who think that he's better than Weber), but I am not counting on it. If he doesn't stay in Nashville a team like Detroit is in a perfect situation to pour some money on him I think.

Other than him some notable ufa dmen include Grossman, Gorges, Boychuk, Wideman, Gleason, Colaiacovo, Liles, Jackman, Beauchemin, Zanon, Allen, Stuart, Mitchell

I am sure there are some other guys out there as well, I just glanced over the list quickly, but except for Suter (and Lidström, but he won't leave Detroit) there aren't really any guys challenging for the Norris trophy anytime soon available. If we can't get Suter, I wouldn't mind us getting a guy like Gleason on a reasonable contract though. Or if we got a big strong stay-at-home d in Grossman.

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11-22-2011, 03:58 PM
  #65
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Weber isn't a ufa this summer. Suter is the prize of the summer, unless he signs a new deal with Nashville before then. I would be absolutely thrilled if we could get him in a Flyers uni (I'm one of those who think that he's better than Weber), but I am not counting on it. If he doesn't stay in Nashville a team like Detroit is in a perfect situation to pour some money on him I think.

Other than him some notable ufa dmen include Grossman, Gorges, Boychuk, Wideman, Gleason, Colaiacovo, Liles, Jackman, Beauchemin, Zanon, Allen, Stuart, Mitchell

I am sure there are some other guys out there as well, I just glanced over the list quickly, but except for Suter (and Lidström, but he won't leave Detroit) there aren't really any guys challenging for the Norris trophy anytime soon available. If we can't get Suter, I wouldn't mind us getting a guy like Gleason on a reasonable contract though. Or if we got a big strong stay-at-home d in Grossman.
If we got any of those guys the people dumping on Mez would be severely surprised at what a "good" defenseman looks like to the rest of the league.

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11-22-2011, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
If you're talking about ditching Mez and Carle for Weber, I don't think you will get much argument from that. And that's fine and that is basically what you OP is saying, but throughout this thread you have also been insinuating, if not outright saying, that Carle and Mez are not top 4 defensemen and they need to go. I'd gladly give up about anyone on this team for Shea Weber, but that doesn't change the fact that Mez is a solid 3/4 player. I think that is what people are taking issue with here. Not the desire to acquire a top flight D-man, but the fact that you seem to be overlooking Mez's playing ability.
Yes I can see where my arguments can be construed as such so that is a valid point but I will confirm that my main premise is leveraging the both of them for a Weber-type although I think this is going to be very unlikely. I think ultimately Carle will be let go and Mesz kept on but things may change if he continues to be avg. It just all depends on how he responds in situations where he needs to step it up in the absence of Pronger and Timonen. Carle already kind of got called out by Holmgren in the playoffs or at least he was an obvious goat when Holmgren decided to throw the D under the bus and downplay the goalie mess which was obviously not cool. However, Mesz didn't exactly step it up either.

The ideal scenario would be if we actually had some decent D prospects that can come in. Gus can maybe assume some of the role Carle is doing at a lower cost and then maybe in the draft you can try and secure and NHL ready D man like a Larsson type although that is pretty tough and rare but I think this upcoming draft is supposed to be pretty deep. Plus salaries even for those kinds of rookies are not cheap. Anyway, my point is that the D can be reconstituted to accomodate Prongs, Timonen and another stud D man. I think it almost has to.

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11-22-2011, 04:01 PM
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Without Timonen or Pronger Mesz, Carle and Conburn are overpaid overrated d-men.

I would move any of them plus Hartnell for any decent talent.

whoever says that Carle/Coburn/Mesz will or help replace Pronge ror Timonen does not know wth is going on.

and that does not mena I hate those players.
They're not meant to replace Pronger, and Timonen though. They're all second pairing D-men IMO. Carle will most likely be gone after this season, or possibly traded sometime this season. Then you'll probably see Pronger - Mez/Coburn, and Timonen - Mez/Coburn. That's not a bad top 4 if they stay healthy. We need a #1 dman for when Pronger/Timonen are gone, but getting rid of Coburn/Mez isn't the answer. You're still gonna need 2nd pairing defensemen.

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11-22-2011, 04:02 PM
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Ur missing the whole point. Carle should be gone but I have no problem with Mesz and Coburn being the team's thrid and fourth best d-man. How many teams out there have a 3rd and 4th better than them?

The bigger problem is Timo and Prong's age. The question you SHOULD be asking yourself is: why do Coburn Carle Mesz have to do so much anyway?

The answer? They have old and decrepid 1st and 2nds. Latest news? Pronger has a virus. Hooray! We had to tolerate this guy not being avail half of last season and the POs, he's missed big chunk of this season, and now he's got a virus. An old geezer strain, I guess.

RETIRE, Pronger RETIRE. U are no good to us injured all the time.


Pronger's contract might become a problem in a few years, but right now the problem is more how much he is missed when he is out (and no, his injuries last season and this season has not been due to old age).

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11-22-2011, 04:08 PM
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That and his inability to understand the cap. Pronger's hit isn't going away if he retires. He signed the contract over 35. Also I'm not sure if he has correctly valued what it would take to get Weber. I think the overall problem is his inability to understand the realistic relationship between place on depth chart/ability/cap hit.
I think you fail in your understanding that Mesz (and certainly Carle) do not in absolute terms have to be on this team or D corps to be successful or to acquire a Weber-Suter type. It's a challenge but not insurmountable especially given the need. This was the same argument tied to the whole Richards and Carter deal.

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11-22-2011, 04:11 PM
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If we got any of those guys the people dumping on Mez would be severely surprised at what a "good" defenseman looks like to the rest of the league.
Yeah, I would take Meszaros over all of them. If we let Carle go and can't land Suter, I would go for Gleason (depending on what he demands) or Grossman though. I wouldn't mind some more snarl on our blueline, and if we added one of those it would ease up on the pk duties for Pronger and Timonen. Plus, if Gustafsson is ready to grab the 6th spot next year, he can compensate some of the offense lost with Carle.

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11-22-2011, 04:11 PM
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They're not meant to replace Pronger, and Timonen though. They're all second pairing D-men IMO. Carle will most likely be gone after this season, or possibly traded sometime this season. Then you'll probably see Pronger - Mez/Coburn, and Timonen - Mez/Coburn. That's not a bad top 4 if they stay healthy. We need a #1 dman for when Pronger/Timonen are gone, but getting rid of Coburn/Mez isn't the answer. You're still gonna need 2nd pairing defensemen.
Once again..Coburn is part of the mix..1-3 along with Pronger and Timonen provided they can hold up. Then you bring in your stud D man for a solid 4 unit. Then you work the whole 5 and 6 situation with a Gus and another D man and it doesn't necessarily have to be Mesz. Again a challenge but can be worked out if shrewd with the draft and free agency. Heck maybe another D prospect will surprise.

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11-22-2011, 04:13 PM
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Once again..Coburn is part of the mix..1-3 along with Pronger and Timonen provided they can hold up. Then you bring in your stud D man for a solid 4 unit. Then you work the whole 5 and 6 situation with a Gus and another D man and it doesn't necessarily have to be Mesz. Again a challenge but can be worked out if shrewd with the draft and free agency. Heck maybe another D prospect will surprise.
You must think that EVERY other D-corps in the league really sucks huh? Name one D-corps that meets your standards.

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11-22-2011, 04:14 PM
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They're not meant to replace Pronger, and Timonen though. They're all second pairing D-men IMO. Carle will most likely be gone after this season, or possibly traded sometime this season. Then you'll probably see Pronger - Mez/Coburn, and Timonen - Mez/Coburn. That's not a bad top 4 if they stay healthy. We need a #1 dman for when Pronger/Timonen are gone, but getting rid of Coburn/Mez isn't the answer. You're still gonna need 2nd pairing defensemen.
It's not bad when we are all healthy. Sure.

They paid like they are but when Pronger is in the press box who is stepping up? Timonen?

No one is suggesting to get rid of Coburn/Mesz.


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11-22-2011, 04:17 PM
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You must think that EVERY other D-corps in the league really sucks huh? Name one D-corps that meets your standards.
I don't follow your baseless red-herring like counterpoint? I'm arguing the standards I'd like to see with the Flyers which would include an eventual anchor replacement for Timonen at least and this replacement would also be one that can pick up the slack when one of or both Timonen and Prongs are out for any extended amount of time. If it means reconstituting the D without Carle and Mesz so be it. If you want to hold onto Mesz then that is fine but might be a bit of a luxury.


Last edited by FreshPerspective: 11-22-2011 at 04:20 PM. Reason: clarify
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11-22-2011, 04:20 PM
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I don't follow your baseless red-herring like counterpoint? I'm arguing the standards I'd like to see with the Flyers which would include an eventual anchor replacement for Timonen at least and one that can pick up the slack when one of or both Timonen and Prongs are out for any extended amount of time. If it means reconstituting the D without Carle and Mesz so be it. If you want to hold onto Mesz then that is fine but might be a bit of a luxury.
And my response is you cannot reasonably do that within the confines of the cap and still ice a respectable team. It's not a red-herring. It's cap management. You are not getting it. What do you want the D-Corps to be? Pronger/Weber, Timmo/Coburn, Gus/Lilja? That's a pretty shaky 5/6 and on top of that our D will be shot in 2 years when Pronger and Timmonen retire.

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