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Major Junior or NCAA hockey?

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Old
11-22-2011, 12:48 PM
  #26
SkinsFan09
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Originally Posted by leoleo3535 View Post
Keep in mind....the vast majority of NCAA scholarships are not full scholarships.
High end talented players rarely finish their education.
Scholarships can and often are withdrawn by the NCAA school leaving the players hanging.
NCAA DI graduates over 88% of its players. Simple as that. Those are players who weren't good enough to go to the NHL and have a backup life plan.

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11-22-2011, 12:49 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
They don't overlap much. Why not the major junior route through your late teens, then if you don't get a pro contract by the age of 19/20, go to the NCAA?
The CHL is considered a professional league by the NCAA, once you play one game in the CHL you cannot play NCAA.

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11-22-2011, 12:52 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
lol'ed. thanks for that, i am having a crappy morning.
Lol, okay, even I LOL'd at that after I typed it.

In comparison to the CHL it takes education way more seriously. My actual thoughts on the NCAA are that it is the most corrupt business in sports outside of FIFA. But that has mostly to do with football and basketball. Football especially. True it only cares about the almighty dollar. But despite all that it is the much better option if you want a back up plan.

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11-22-2011, 12:58 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by leoleo3535 View Post
NCAA rules do not permit this.
Once you have played CHL you are not allowed to play NCAA.
That's a silly rule to have.

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11-22-2011, 01:10 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by SkinsFan09 View Post
Lol, okay, even I LOL'd at that after I typed it.

In comparison to the CHL it takes education way more seriously. My actual thoughts on the NCAA are that it is the most corrupt business in sports outside of FIFA. But that has mostly to do with football and basketball. Football especially. True it only cares about the almighty dollar. But despite all that it is the much better option if you want a back up plan.
it's not about football and basketball. the ncaa rules are the same for every sport, but the ncaa doesn't look into a program unless something looks amiss. some schools have sports outside of football and hoops that are the biggest attraction in town. the big hockey conference programs generate a lot of money for the athletic department. they are the ones who profit from their star athletes and help the kid get his gpa to the barely acceptable C+ by any means necessary.

think of the NCAA as congress legislating that you cannot pay your workers but dammit make sure every one of them can read. and the schools (employers) shrug at the topic of paying their players ("look, it's not allowed, what can we do?") but fudging every test so the athlete still makes the grade in some ******** class. that's not a real education, or whatever they are calling it these days.

the chl is a pro league. they treat their players as professionals. they pay them, they find them housing, they look after the player's health, they sign contracts and deal with the player's other contractual obligations. are they paid enough? maybe not. are there loopholes to "free education" after hockey? sure. it's a business. that's why the players are represented by a union.

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11-22-2011, 01:20 PM
  #31
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This has been a discussion going on for years and years, and really depends on so many factors.

It used to be that almost all the top prospects went the CHL route, but many more top prospects these days (particularly from the US) are going the NCAA route than used to. Part of that has to do with the development of the NTDP, and part that the NCAA programs are so much better than they used to be.

There are issues for players on either path. If you go major junior, rules do not allow you to ever play in the NCAA. However, CIS schools have better teams than they used to, and occasionally even NHL drafted players go to the CIS after the CHL when they are developing slower than expected and not ready for pro play.

Most players who are drafted in the middle rounds (not the top players) are still from the CHL. It is still the best route to get drafted from. But a player who will go the college route, but is not yet a freshman, has several advantages for NHL teams under the current CBA. The team has four years to sign him, and not two, so NHL clubs see this as an advantage. Plus, if the player decides not to go back for a sophomore year, he can play in the AHL, which a CHL player cannot. (A CHL players who is 19 either has to play in the CHL or NHL.)

The CHL has another advantage for a player. Its undrafted or unsigned players can sign as free agents at a younger age than those on the college route. It is very rare for undrafted players to come out of college early. At the very earliest, this would make an undrafted college senior age 22, but most likely he is 23 or 24. That's late compared to CHL guys who are signing at 20 or 21, and gives an NHL team less time for development.

The decision is individual, and I know that teams discuss this decision with the players they draft.

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Old
11-22-2011, 02:08 PM
  #32
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NCAA easily. If you have the talent, you will be found, period, I don't care if you play in Afghanistan, if you're good enough to play in the NHL, in 2011, not 1974, you will be found. There are excellent coaches on both sides to grow your abilities. Ron Mason, Jerry York, Red Berenson etc. Great players have come out of both leagues.

The difference is, what if things go wrong? The NCAA actually takes education seriously. The CHL has tons of loopholes (perhaps they've been fixed but regardless) to cheat you out of the school you really want to go to and to not have to pay you school tuition, dropping you to Junior A right before you are guaranteed money for school.

Top end talent will go to the CHL because they are almost guaranteed to be financially set within a couple years after they sign NHL contracts but those who aren't can go to the NCAA and have more time to train while getting enough game experience and a real educational opportunity at some of the best schools in the world (Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Cornell, Dartmouth, Brown etc...duly noted that most great players with NHL potential don't play in the ECAC).

This is just me. Both leagues have their perks. Whatever suits you but I think the NCAA provides you with education and playing experience instead of just one.


Hahaha. Is this post for real?



First of all the difference between the the bottom 10 on every NHL roster and thousands of other professional hockey players who just didn't make the cut is pretty darn small. To spell this out for you... if you are in the bottom half of the 690 players on active rosters in the NHL or roughly 350 of the guys in the NHL. You need to be selling yourself in every way possible to prove that you belong over the next guy. No one is coming out to find you because you DESERVE to be found. Talk to anyone who ever played competitive anything and ask them about politics.

You can be an idealist all you want but the world simply doesn't work that way.



"NCAA takes education seriously" ---- hahah. SERIOUSLY???



"Major Jr. (cheats you out of the school you really want to go to)" -- Do you actually believe that most players who get full or partial scholarships are going to their first choice of school? You go where the opportunity presents itself.

That comparison is totally ridiculous because in reality in the CHL you actually CAN go to the school of your choice and if it is a bit more expensive you just pony up the difference (Just like the MAJORITY of NCAA players do because they are on partial scholarships!!)


"NCAA provides you with education and playing experience instead of just one." -- The truth is that the NCAA provides you an opportunity to do both at the same time. Which is a good deal if you are looking to parlay some hockey talent into a jump start on your working life.

The schedule for college hockey is awful light and doesn't prepare you mentally or physically for the grind of an 82 game professional schedule. Not saying that making the jump isn't possible of even probable, just saying that the light schedule doesn't train you for that jump. This fact will always leave a question of doubt on a team considering you for a pro-contract and may make the difference between you getting a shot and not getting one.

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11-22-2011, 02:33 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Dump and Chase View Post
Hahaha. Is this post for real?



First of all the difference between the the bottom 10 on every NHL roster and thousands of other professional hockey players who just didn't make the cut is pretty darn small. To spell this out for you... if you are in the bottom half of the 690 players on active rosters in the NHL or roughly 350 of the guys in the NHL. You need to be selling yourself in every way possible to prove that you belong over the next guy. No one is coming out to find you because you DESERVE to be found. Talk to anyone who ever played competitive anything and ask them about politics.

You can be an idealist all you want but the world simply doesn't work that way.



"NCAA takes education seriously" ---- hahah. SERIOUSLY???



"Major Jr. (cheats you out of the school you really want to go to)" -- Do you actually believe that most players who get full or partial scholarships are going to their first choice of school? You go where the opportunity presents itself.

That comparison is totally ridiculous because in reality in the CHL you actually CAN go to the school of your choice and if it is a bit more expensive you just pony up the difference (Just like the MAJORITY of NCAA players do because they are on partial scholarships!!)


"NCAA provides you with education and playing experience instead of just one." -- The truth is that the NCAA provides you an opportunity to do both at the same time. Which is a good deal if you are looking to parlay some hockey talent into a jump start on your working life.

The schedule for college hockey is awful light and doesn't prepare you mentally or physically for the grind of an 82 game professional schedule. Not saying that making the jump isn't possible of even probable, just saying that the light schedule doesn't train you for that jump. This fact will always leave a question of doubt on a team considering you for a pro-contract and may make the difference between you getting a shot and not getting one.
at the end of the day, its up to the individual...

my neighbor went undrafted after college NCAA in Michigan, but he's happy that he came out with an undergrad in commerence and he continued to play the game with the East Coast league and up.

He's 31, and being an AHLer and a 4th liner with year to year NHL contracts, he knows that hockey... though his profession has a short lifespan and he's happy knowing he has built his credibility in his industry and that he can go on with other various ventures, such as scouting, agency, market rep etc..

I think its like that whole debate... whether to go pro right away or to follow through the amateur route

Its too bad that the CHL is concidering fully professional, concidering that Midget AAA, JR A and SR A aren't.

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Old
11-22-2011, 04:47 PM
  #34
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Definatly depends on how good you are and how serious you are about it, also age of course. Canada has a great junior program in the CHL and a great Major Junior program. If your good enough and your in Canada you get alot more notice than you would in the States but if your really really good in the states you get about the same notice I guess.

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11-22-2011, 07:29 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Dump and Chase View Post

No one is coming out to find you because you DESERVE to be found. Talk to anyone who ever played competitive anything and ask them about politics.

"NCAA takes education seriously" ---- hahah. SERIOUSLY???


if it is a bit more expensive you just pony up the difference (Just like the MAJORITY of NCAA players do because they are on partial scholarships!!)


The schedule for college hockey is awful light and doesn't prepare you mentally or physically for the grind of an 82 game professional schedule. Not saying that making the jump isn't possible of even probable, just saying that the light schedule doesn't train you for that jump. This fact will always leave a question of doubt on a team considering you for a pro-contract and may make the difference between you getting a shot and not getting one.
a) If you are good enough to be a legit contributor in the NHL, you're going to be scouted, found and courted like hell, I'm not talking about borderline players who aren't even grinder level. If you are good enough to be a top 6 forward or top 4 defender, you will be found whether or not you play for Michigan, Kitchener etc. That is pretty much undeniable. They want talent. Talent = wins = money. Doesn't mean you don't have to earn your way in with hard work but that wasn't my point, that was yours. The point is, you will get your opportunity if you play in either league so the whole "go to the CHL to get recognized" thing is irrelevant.

The question was if you are "really good" no? Not borderline.

b) As I said before, I laughed after I typed that. Yes, we know the NCAA cares about $$$ in the end, same as the CHL but it's hard to argue that you have better educational opportunity in the CHL than the NCAA.

c) True but it's been shown by tons of players that you can make the jump from the NCAA to the NHL. A lot of players are 21, 22 and signed to amateur contracts because they were missed in the draft. 25% of the NHL came from the NCAA is this really a big issue at this point?

And I'm not saying one is a bad choice. If the CHL suits you do it, if the NCAA suits you do it.


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Old
11-23-2011, 07:37 AM
  #36
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a) If you are good enough to be a legit contributor in the NHL, you're going to be scouted, found and courted like hell, I'm not talking about borderline players who aren't even grinder level. If you are good enough to be a top 6 forward or top 4 defender, you will be found whether or not you play for Michigan, Kitchener etc. That is pretty much undeniable. They want talent. Talent = wins = money. Doesn't mean you don't have to earn your way in with hard work but that wasn't my point, that was yours. The point is, you will get your opportunity if you play in either league so the whole "go to the CHL to get recognized" thing is irrelevant.

The question was if you are "really good" no? Not borderline.

b) As I said before, I laughed after I typed that. Yes, we know the NCAA cares about $$$ in the end, same as the CHL but it's hard to argue that you have better educational opportunity in the CHL than the NCAA.

c) True but it's been shown by tons of players that you can make the jump from the NCAA to the NHL. A lot of players are 21, 22 and signed to amateur contracts because they were missed in the draft. 25% of the NHL came from the NCAA is this really a big issue at this point?

And I'm not saying one is a bad choice. If the CHL suits you do it, if the NCAA suits you do it.
You can get a very good education if you go the chl route.

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11-23-2011, 08:34 AM
  #37
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You can get a very good education if you go the chl route.
Yes, I agree, but the stats clearly show that you have a better opportunity educationally in the NCAA.

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11-23-2011, 08:42 AM
  #38
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Yes, I agree, but the stats clearly show that you have a better opportunity educationally in the NCAA.
Your right but i just get tried of people assuming that people that go the chl route get no education.

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11-23-2011, 09:06 AM
  #39
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I'd go college...because of college girls. And less travel. And free education.
Obviously you haven't been to any CHL games to see all the "puck bunnies". My theory is that CHL players get the pick of the litter in most small towns because the girls see them as a ticket out. That's how I explain all the hot NHL wives.

Also I would think at most of the bigger NCAA schools, hockey players are much lower on the college co-ed pecking order. They are not the obvious physical freaks of nature as say football or basketballers. LOL.

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11-23-2011, 09:13 AM
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Your right but i just get tried of people assuming that people that go the chl route get no education.
The one thing that's always bugged me in the receiving of a "free education" is really the quality of education received. Unless you go to some of the bigger named universities like Michigan, Wisconsin, BC, etc., having a degree from most of the better NCAA hockey programs doesn't really mean much. Go to your corporate HR rep and ask what a Quinnipac degree can do for you.

This doesn't even take into account getting a degree in basket weaving or athletic taping strategies as majors.

The CHL is your best shot at making hockey a career. The NCAA is the more conservative attempt at the same thing.

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11-23-2011, 09:48 AM
  #41
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The one thing that's always bugged me in the receiving of a "free education" is really the quality of education received. Unless you go to some of the bigger named universities like Michigan, Wisconsin, BC, etc., having a degree from most of the better NCAA hockey programs doesn't really mean much. Go to your corporate HR rep and ask what a Quinnipac degree can do for you.

This doesn't even take into account getting a degree in basket weaving or athletic taping strategies as majors.

The CHL is your best shot at making hockey a career. The NCAA is the more conservative attempt at the same thing.

Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't make it a bad school. Yeah, some are regional schools. But 'generic giant state U's are generally the ones that are going to be inflating grades for athletes, and while they have the name because of national sports coverage, they're not always the best schools.

The name on the degree won't get you much anyway, unless it's an elite school, regardless of if it's Michigan or Quinnipiaic. And those elite universities? Harvard and Yale have pretty good hockey programs.

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11-23-2011, 10:06 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by dereksutton9 View Post
Obviously you haven't been to any CHL games to see all the "puck bunnies". My theory is that CHL players get the pick of the litter in most small towns because the girls see them as a ticket out. That's how I explain all the hot NHL wives.

Also I would think at most of the bigger NCAA schools, hockey players are much lower on the college co-ed pecking order. They are not the obvious physical freaks of nature as say football or basketballers. LOL.
true. I wish we had a high end junior hockey team in Minnesota. We have tons of high school and college hockey though so I suppose they don't want the competition.

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11-24-2011, 12:04 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by dereksutton9 View Post
The one thing that's always bugged me in the receiving of a "free education" is really the quality of education received. Unless you go to some of the bigger named universities like Michigan, Wisconsin, BC, etc., having a degree from most of the better NCAA hockey programs doesn't really mean much. Go to your corporate HR rep and ask what a Quinnipac degree can do for you.

This doesn't even take into account getting a degree in basket weaving or athletic taping strategies as majors.

The CHL is your best shot at making hockey a career. The NCAA is the more conservative attempt at the same thing.
Uhh. Not sure if serious. There's some very good educations being given out by hockey playing schools. I'd think the onus would be on the individual players to get the most out of their free educations, not to call out the quality of schools.

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11-24-2011, 06:16 AM
  #44
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Uhh. Not sure if serious. There's some very good educations being given out by hockey playing schools. I'd think the onus would be on the individual players to get the most out of their free educations, not to call out the quality of schools.
Yes there are some but people assume that you go ncaa its a lock you will get a great education.

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11-24-2011, 09:11 AM
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College and it's not even close. I only played club level in PA, but they were the best years of my life.

1) Girls-no need to expand
2) Education-chances are you wont make the pros. You'll have a degree and an ability to make a decent living outside of hockey.

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11-24-2011, 09:18 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by dereksutton9 View Post
The one thing that's always bugged me in the receiving of a "free education" is really the quality of education received. Unless you go to some of the bigger named universities like Michigan, Wisconsin, BC, etc., having a degree from most of the better NCAA hockey programs doesn't really mean much. Go to your corporate HR rep and ask what a Quinnipac degree can do for you.
Complete and utter B.S. I wont argue that SOME companies will value a degree from one school higher than another, but in today's world a degree vs. a high school diploma is a no contest. Unless your in a trade, a degree is the new high school diploma.

Quinnipac degree in say Accounting vs. a high school diploma is the difference between starting at $30-40k a year and sweeping the floors for $10-$12/hr.

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