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The Official Trade Carle and Meszaros Thread

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Old
11-23-2011, 01:36 AM
  #101
hockeyphan25
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Sign me up, they need to go now (at least Carle), not in the offseason, otherwise I'm not too confident in our playoff hopes this year. Our biggest weakness last year was defense. Not during the majority of the year but in the end and in the playoffs. Carle is horrible and I'm even starting to think its not his fault, at some point Lavi needs to be blamed for not realizing how bad he sucks. The two points or so he had on the PP all of last year should have indicated he should not be put anywhere near the PP. He is basically a PP killer for the other team. His weak shots from the point in the Carolina game were embarrassing and single handedly killed off one of our PPs.

I like Mez but he has been pretty much as bad as Carle this year, he is way too erratic, constantly chasing players and giving them inside positioning instead of getting into position himself. When he's not doing that, you can usually find him standing in front of the net in a still position watching an opposing player put the puck behind our goalie and reacting when that player is already celebrating. Then unlike Carle who can hardly reach the net with his shot, Mez just can't put it on target, watching him miss the net is mind boggling. How can he miss the net so badly every single time he shoots?

Everybody was all over our goalies last year but as bad as they were, they were not as bad as the defense in front of them. However, for some reason the so called hockey experts keep mentioning how the Flyers have the best defense in the league. Even Coburn has been pretty bad this year but in his case, he has a track record that would indicate he should be able to get back on track.

Since everybody seems to think our D is so great, maybe we should see if we can trade them for some more reliable players. Also, please bring in a new PP coach or consultant.

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11-23-2011, 06:42 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
If we're relying on them to do that then what's happened to Pronger and Kimmo?
I guess we'll find out soon enough.


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11-23-2011, 08:37 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
If we're stuck with...

Meszaros - Gustafsson
Coburn - Carle
Marshall - Bourdon
Lilja - Walker
Bartulis

Then it means that Timonen has retired and Pronger is getting the Hatcher treatment...

Thus it means we have a healthy 11.25m in cap space (14.69m if Carle goes too), numerous excess mid-range and upper range valued players within the organization to use for trade bait, and high draft picks in a defense-heavy draft to deal with the problem...I think we can work something out.

Meszaros and Coburn are here next year. Carle is likely not.
you really need to stop with this nonsense. whoever they draft, if it is a dman, will more than likely be years away. they fact that they have not drafted/devloped 1 friggin dman of note over the last x amount years makes it even more unlikely. So why do you insist on saying a defense heavy drfat will help deal with this problem?

who are these numerous excess mid to upper range players within the orginization they can use for trade bait?

once kimmo is gone they will use his $ to sign a #1 dman to take his place. that really isnt a worry or concern to me.

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11-23-2011, 08:41 AM
  #104
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I agree that we'll need a new #1 when Timmo/Pronger are gone, and that's where a guy like Weber MIGHT come in, but those guys aren't the norm around the league and you don't find many. Also the cap makes it so you can't have many of those guys on your team. There's a reason Weber will likely end up making twice what a guy like Mez makes.
You are wrong when you say we'll need ONE new Number 1 .. we will need two of them. Timo AND Pronger are old and one will retire and the other will fall apart.

Therefore we dont just need a Suter OR a Weber, we need both.

Let's think logically. If you get rid of both Mesz and Carle and let's say use their cap to grab a Suter, what do you have? Suter, Coburn, Timo and Pronger. Then Timo retires and Pronger falls apart. So then what do you have? A top notch Suter with a still developing Coburn, ok, fine first pairing. Second D pairing? A fading Pronger with a nobody?

You HAVE to think in terms of replacing both Timo AND Pronger, bolstered by a pair of rising youngsters.

In other words, two star Dmen bolstered by two rising proteges. That's why you get rid of Carle but not BOTH Carle and Mesz.

If you keep Coburn and Mesz, they get mentored by Pronger and Timo until they leave or fall apart. Then they continue to get mentored by two equivalents to Timo and Prongs. WHo? I donno.

In an ideal world both Suter and Weber. I know it wont happen but drool, think of the advantages.

Numbers wisse it can actually work. Prongs=5 mil, Timo=6.5 mil, Carle= 4.2 mil. That's almost 16 mil, enough to grab both Suter and Weber on long term contracts.

Cmon work with me on this!

IMAGINE guys. Suter and Weber bolstered by Coburn and Mesz!

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Old
11-23-2011, 09:17 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Real funny. This team could use some Stevens team building right about now
Yes, my post was funny, thanks. However, props on your post. Sarcasm at it's best.

First place team after trading away their captain and leading goal scorer. Yeah, this team is real messed up. lol

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Old
11-23-2011, 11:55 AM
  #106
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I would get rid of kimmo, we can get something for him I would not pay 6 mil for what he does we had a better dman in ED from the 90's than kimmo.
he does not hit or move the man in front of the crease ever. Mez will hit and clear the crease if we get rid of him we will have the d that nobody fears and the only other person that people fear on our d is pronger and that is if he sticks someone, I love pronger but 10 years ago when he was nasty. In todays hocky we need a fast skating dman we get caught looking at players and not defending them. forget the puck and take the man on defense. Also we need to stop trying to clear up the boards everytime I know that this is taught to every player but it seams that the other team is always there waiting for and getting the puck maybe because the wingers are not supporting the defense.

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11-23-2011, 12:08 PM
  #107
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you really need to stop with this nonsense. whoever they draft, if it is a dman, will more than likely be years away. they fact that they have not drafted/devloped 1 friggin dman of note over the last x amount years makes it even more unlikely. So why do you insist on saying a defense heavy drfat will help deal with this problem?

who are these numerous excess mid to upper range players within the orginization they can use for trade bait?

once kimmo is gone they will use his $ to sign a #1 dman to take his place. that really isnt a worry or concern to me.
Any one of or possibly two of Schenn, Simmonds, Voracek, Hartnell, Couturier, a 1st, and possibly Read or Bobrovsky for upper range players for trade bait.

Read, Bobrovsky, Gustafsson, Nodl, and a number of other upper-midrange prospects with NHL potential to throw in.


Didn't you learn from the offseason? To this organization, everyone is expendable in the pursuit of making this team better either in terms of chemistry or on-ice performance. End of discussion.

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Old
11-23-2011, 12:17 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Carle I would be fine with trading. Mez was our best defender last year. I think 20 games is a little short to forget about that.
While I agree that we have to remember his performance, and that we shouldn't trade him, he was not our best D last year, even if he won the trophy. He was the most impressive one, but he was a 3rd pairing guy. Pornger (when he was there) and Kimmo were definitely better.

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Old
11-23-2011, 01:14 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
If we're stuck with...

Meszaros - Gustafsson
Coburn - Carle
Marshall - Bourdon
Lilja - Walker
Bartulis

Then it means that Timonen has retired and Pronger is getting the Hatcher treatment...

Thus it means we have a healthy 11.25m in cap space (14.69m if Carle goes too), numerous excess mid-range and upper range valued players within the organization to use for trade bait, and high draft picks in a defense-heavy draft to deal with the problem...

I think we can work something out.

Meszaros and Coburn are here next year. Carle is likely not.
That lineup is atrocious. Way worse than what we have now. And completely dependent on us winning some sort of lottery on prize UFA, which is far from certain. Relying on the draft for stud defensemen (or really just d-men in general) is an AWFUL idea.

The bottom line here is that Coburn/Mez/Carle create a solid backbone for a defensive corps. They aren't anchors and they aren't fillers. Those are the types of guys that you NEED and quite frankly aren't as plentiful as people here seem to claim. Sure the big name guys are even more rare, but 1.) you really only NEED one guy like that and 2.) a big market team like the Flyers SHOULD be able to sway SOMEONE in that range with a monetary offer, whether it's Weber, Suter, or whoever else the manage to wragnle in.

ITT: People forget how important it is to have MULTIPLE solid defensive players behind your superstars.

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Old
11-23-2011, 02:14 PM
  #110
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Yeah, this is just one of the many reasons I wanted Voynov from the Kings in the Richards trade.

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11-23-2011, 02:16 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
First Bold: Do we have knowledge of this Notice?? I haven't heard or seen anything regarding Homer putting our D-corps on notice? Not trying to be a ****** but where did this come from? I don't think Coburn is on notice to live up to his contract a week into signing the new deal??

Second Bold: Why is Homer heading into Panic mode? I don't understand the logic here. The team is currently 4th in the conference with a billion new forwards and a new goalie learning the system and his D-men. Bryz has been better since his slump(excluding last night). There is no way this team is heading into panic mode because Pronger has a virus and Coburn has bruised Kidney's and will be playing tomorrow night?

Our team has played well through the first quarter of the season who had a dramatic makeover in the off-season. If the team falters big time down the stretch and drops dramatically in the standings then I can consider a shake-up, but this team will be competing for a playoff spot. The only shake-up we will do if we continue on the record we are playing now will be trying to add an impact player at the deadline.

I think it was Timmeh who reported about Holmgren putting the d on notice and it was also before the Coburn extension so he MIGHT be out of the woods for now (though now he'd have more trade value as he is signed and not a pending UFA.

Second, Holmgren, along with everybody else, sees that it's not our forwards or goal-scoring that is a concern right now. Our goaltending has been up and down but mostly Bryz has played at least above average. The ONE place we were suppose to be "stable" was on defense as we were returning our top 5 from last year. However, it has been our defensie that has been the biggest disappointment so far this year and hence the reason for Holmgren putting them on notice. In case anyone forgot lets review what "Homer Simpson" did the last time he went into "panic mode" about the defense: 1) He signed Randy Jones to a rediculous contract, 2) Jones got hurt, 3) He traded a 1st rnd pick for freaking Steve Eminger (a player whom the Caps were considering waiving and most reports had them likely to accept a 3rd rnd pick for him but homer gave them a 1st), 4) When Eminger wasn't working out (surprise surprise) homer trade Eminger and Steve Downie (a former 1st rnd draft pick who had yet to play even half a season in the NHL) for Matt Carle. Now while Carle has been a decent 2nd pairing dman, he was CERTAINLY not worth what was essentially two 1st rnd picks.

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Old
11-23-2011, 02:16 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Any one of or possibly two of Schenn, Simmonds, Voracek, Hartnell, Couturier, a 1st, and possibly Read or Bobrovsky for upper range players for trade bait.

Read, Bobrovsky, Gustafsson, Nodl, and a number of other upper-midrange prospects with NHL potential to throw in.


Didn't you learn from the offseason? To this organization, everyone is expendable in the pursuit of making this team better either in terms of chemistry or on-ice performance. End of discussion.
Schenn and couturier no doubt have value and could get you an upper tier player I agree.

What value do those other guys really have? They will possibly get you a similar player in return or a drfat pick, not a 1st. Adding them to a package doesn’t help it much. The first will. Hartnell, simmonds, and voracek are nowhere near upper level players. Mid range. Period.


Stop with throwing in nodl, bob or gus. They have little to no value. Others with nhl potential, your a trip. What will you get for those 3? A 6th rd pick? You will probably be so sad when nodl is waived at some point. if those 3 had any value or teams wanted them they would have been gone by now imo.

That end of discussion sentence was very authoritative. i love it when you talk dirty.

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Old
11-23-2011, 02:51 PM
  #113
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I think it was Timmeh who reported about Holmgren putting the d on notice and it was also before the Coburn extension so he MIGHT be out of the woods for now (though now he'd have more trade value as he is signed and not a pending UFA.

Second, Holmgren, along with everybody else, sees that it's not our forwards or goal-scoring that is a concern right now. Our goaltending has been up and down but mostly Bryz has played at least above average. The ONE place we were suppose to be "stable" was on defense as we were returning our top 5 from last year. However, it has been our defensie that has been the biggest disappointment so far this year and hence the reason for Holmgren putting them on notice. In case anyone forgot lets review what "Homer Simpson" did the last time he went into "panic mode" about the defense: 1) He signed Randy Jones to a rediculous contract, 2) Jones got hurt, 3) He traded a 1st rnd pick for freaking Steve Eminger (a player whom the Caps were considering waiving and most reports had them likely to accept a 3rd rnd pick for him but homer gave them a 1st), 4) When Eminger wasn't working out (surprise surprise) homer trade Eminger and Steve Downie (a former 1st rnd draft pick who had yet to play even half a season in the NHL) for Matt Carle. Now while Carle has been a decent 2nd pairing dman, he was CERTAINLY not worth what was essentially two 1st rnd picks.
The problem with this theory is that the majority of the blame for our defensive problems this year falls on defensemen. I agree that the D has been lacking, but don't forget that there are supposed to be three forwards in the defensive zone playing D as well. We took a pretty big drop in the defensive ability of our forwards this year. I don't think Lavy has adjusted for that in his system. Giroux is not Richards (though he is certainly far above average), Briere is not Carter, JVR's defensive game has always been lacking, and Simmonds, Voracek, and Jagr are far from defensive superstars. The coverage of the points all year has been abysmal. I think the D are probably playing slighty below their ability level as well, but not nearly as much as people seem to be claiming.

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Old
11-23-2011, 05:04 PM
  #114
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if any deal involved parting with Bobo, who would be the backup ??

heaven forbid if we did trade Bob, and then Bryz gets a decent length injury, YIKES..

i dont think bobo should be dealt for ANYTHING yet... still way to early to give up on him i think...

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11-23-2011, 09:07 PM
  #115
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Nice to see Meszaros respond with a more involved game and accept my challenge ...stepped up and got one of his scud shots actually on target

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11-23-2011, 09:08 PM
  #116
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"SCUD shot" is a fitting description.

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11-23-2011, 11:11 PM
  #117
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that was a brutal goal allowed by Dippy. still good for Mez for getting a SOG.

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11-24-2011, 05:33 AM
  #118
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When Mez's shots hit the net, he generally scores. It's a freaking cannon. It's just getting him to hit the net in the first place

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11-24-2011, 09:54 PM
  #119
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I am really over Carle, and hope we can trade him for something come the deadline or just not even resign him.

I like Mez, however. He has a hefty price tags, but when he is good he is great. The love some people have for Pronger though is something I cant relate to. He has clearly been getting worse since we got him, and while he does bring a good presence that is missed while he is injured, I really feel like getting rid of him is much more beneficial than paying his 5mil salary to an empty locker stall in 2 years.

Weber is just a wet dream that I do not want to think of. He is too good and I wouldnt want to pay the price tag, but Suter is something semi-realistic that could happen. Trading Schenn/Cooter would need to happen. Suter is very good, but he is not the best. Nashville would be crazy to request a top prospect for a free agent they are not going to resign.

NHL 12 is not good for me. Be a GM I got Weber and Suter for Pronger, Kimmo, and a 1st. (I bet some people would never do this trade IRL)

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11-24-2011, 10:57 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by LetsGoFlyers1825 View Post
NHL 12 is not good for me. Be a GM I got Weber and Suter for Pronger, Kimmo, and a 1st. (I bet some people would never do this trade IRL)
I love Pronger and I love Timonen...but...

Weber + Suter is slightly better than Pronger + Timonen now...

And it's much better long term...

I'd do that deal every single time.

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11-25-2011, 08:28 AM
  #121
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What value do those other guys really have? They will possibly get you a similar player in return or a drfat pick, not a 1st. Adding them to a package doesn’t help it much. The first will. Hartnell, simmonds, and voracek are nowhere near upper level players. Mid range. Period.
You're underestimating how other teams look at the Flyers and our forward depth.

Hartnell. Simmonds. Voracek. They would log a lot more ice time and produce a fair share more on worse teams.

Hartnell is a 1st line forward for the Flyers and anywhere, really, with right the talent around him. Calling him mid-range is silly. I don't even LIKE Hartnell, but he is what he is.

Voracek is a second line forward on a good team. Maybe a 1st line forward on a really really bad team. He's a 3rd liner on a team as stacked as the Flyers.

What Simmonds does is needed by every team, so his value is based on how poorly the other team lacks his skill set, and the pressure on the GM to improve.

A 1st or 2nd + Hartnell (pending NTC waived) or Simmonds or Voracek -- you'd be surprised what you could troll with that net at the trade deadline.

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11-29-2011, 12:24 PM
  #122
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Well like I noted in this thread..and which Meltzer noted with his own post today...Carle and Mesz and especially Meszeros are going to need to step it up. If they don't then I will continue to say I want them leveraged at some point for a stud D man this offseason one way or another. I also noted all this summer especially after his back surgery that the Pronger situation is reminding me of the Howe situation and Meltzer pointed that out as well today. Then of course you have Timonen saying he's concerned about all the injuries and how it's going to gas the team later on. The point here is that it doesn't look like we're as deep as we thought..specificallly on D. We continue to get exposed with our lack of development in the minors on D. I mean seriously it's just sad. This offseason ALL the focus needs to be on reconstituting the D through the draft if we keep the picks and don't trade one now to fix our holes and to get a big time FA on D or at least make every effort to..

Pronger is now officially becoming unreliable and Timonen is going to be a cripple by the second half again.

Finally, we absolutely NEED some above average to stellar goaltending to keep pace in the standings otherwise the end of the year we're going to be fighting for a playoff spot. So basically the keys here are either Bob or Bryz stealing games and Meszeros logging harder minutes and doing so in a consistent manner and well. He also needs to be more of an impact on the PP...period. If he regresses and even Carle and can't even stem the bleeding I want him and his contract moved. Average play will not suffice at this critical juncture ....

Time to see what we're really made of....it doesn't look like we can do what Pitt has done when they were missing not one but two superstars for extended periods of time. Then again I think they are coached much better....and this year their goaltender has helped hold the fort..something we def need Bryz to do!

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