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11-20-2011, 09:34 PM
  #26
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I agree I did that because he said he didn't want Simmonds on the Briere line so I could appease him. I think hes fine on that line and that all 3 JvR, Briere, and Simmonds could all afford to step up their game and as a unit could all be better. Chemistry is not instantaneous it will take time. Idk if you all recall but it took Briere almost 2 or 3 full season to find someone other then vinny prospal to play with.
Simmonds hasn't been playing as bad lately, and IIRC it's been with Briere and JvR. I've been down on a few players more-so then I should this season.

And yea, I recall. Sometimes chemistry takes longer then us fans would like, but the more they're playing together; the better the chemistry, usually.

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11-20-2011, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Sh0otnSc0re View Post
Simmonds hasn't been playing as bad lately, and IIRC it's been with Briere and JvR. I've been down on a few players more-so then I should this season.

And yea, I recall. Sometimes chemistry takes longer then us fans would like, but the more they're playing together; the better the chemistry, usually.
I don't think they are playing awful I would just like to see all 3 step there game up and play better. Briere Im not as worried about he plays when it matters most. JvR I would like to see a real regular season out of him. Playoff JvR is night and day from what he is atm. If he consistently does that and is a Briere clone then Im ok with it otherwise not so much. Simmonds I see being given a very good chance to succeed moreso then he got in LA and I'd like to see him do more with it.

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11-20-2011, 10:13 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Sh0otnSc0re View Post
Simmonds hasn't been playing as bad lately, and IIRC it's been with Briere and JvR. I've been down on a few players more-so then I should this season.

And yea, I recall. Sometimes chemistry takes longer then us fans would like, but the more they're playing together; the better the chemistry, usually.
Just don't understand punishing Talbot for doing everything you asked of him and more. Also don't understand ruining the chemistry between him and Read and Voracek.

But... IF you were to do that, I'd much rather see a Read-Couturier-Voracek 3rd line. Couturier's offensive development is much more important to the future of this team IMO than Simmonds is.

Like I said... there are plenty of teams right now (Toronto for example) where Simmonds would be their 2nd line RW right now. Plenty of teams are dying for solid wingers and would love a good aggressive forward like Simmonds. When Schenn returns, I think we could get good value for Simmonds, so I'd definitely be willing to shop him.

If you traded Simmonds + 2nd for Voynov, you get a guy w/ a world of potential who is top 4 right now. You'd also be in perfect shape cap-wise to pursue Ryan Suter (or the like) in the off-season. And you'd still potentially have a 2nd in next year's draft. Along w/ your own late 1st. Assuming you draft defense there, you'd have a solid young defense corps moving forward.

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11-20-2011, 10:24 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Just don't understand punishing Talbot for doing everything you asked of him and more. Also don't understand ruining the chemistry between him and Read and Voracek.

But... IF you were to do that, I'd much rather see a Read-Couturier-Voracek 3rd line. Couturier's offensive development is much more important to the future of this team IMO than Simmonds is.

Like I said... there are plenty of teams right now (Toronto for example) where Simmonds would be their 2nd line RW right now. Plenty of teams are dying for solid wingers and would love a good aggressive forward like Simmonds. When Schenn returns, I think we could get good value for Simmonds, so I'd definitely be willing to shop him.

If you traded Simmonds + 2nd for Voynov, you get a guy w/ a world of potential who is top 4 right now. You'd also be in perfect shape cap-wise to pursue Ryan Suter (or the like) in the off-season. And you'd still potentially have a 2nd in next year's draft. Along w/ your own late 1st. Assuming you draft defense there, you'd have a solid young defense corps moving forward.
Couturier is not moving from the 4th line this year book it its not happening hes in a 4th line role to limit his minutes so he does not get overworked in his first full NHL season and round out his already stellar defensive play. He will get top 9 minutes in the future not this year maybe in the playoffs at the end of the year or if we suffer like 5 injuries to Centers. Your arguement towards getting rid of Simmonds is baseless. They are not moving him just to move him right after acquiring him, he's done what they have asked of him.

As for Talbot he is expecting a bottom line role anyway it's not punishment he is a role player and knows what his job on the team is. You don't trade depth because your bottom line career role guy is clicking with 2 offensive young dynamos. Depth is a good thing and Talbot fills his role very well.

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11-21-2011, 06:47 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
Couturier is not moving from the 4th line this year book it its not happening hes in a 4th line role to limit his minutes so he does not get overworked in his first full NHL season and round out his already stellar defensive play. He will get top 9 minutes in the future not this year maybe in the playoffs at the end of the year or if we suffer like 5 injuries to Centers. Your arguement towards getting rid of Simmonds is baseless. They are not moving him just to move him right after acquiring him, he's done what they have asked of him.

As for Talbot he is expecting a bottom line role anyway it's not punishment he is a role player and knows what his job on the team is. You don't trade depth because your bottom line career role guy is clicking with 2 offensive young dynamos. Depth is a good thing and Talbot fills his role very well.
Goddamnitsomuch this.

I don't expect Couturier to move out of the fourth line either, but I kind of wouldn't mind seeing him with Brière. Couturier handles center duties defensively and Brière focus on offense. Something like this if fully healthy

Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr
JvR-Talbot-Read
Voracek-Couturier/Briére
Nödl-Schenn-Simmonds

I see no need to shop any players on this team, but if LA came and said that they really would like Simmonds back and offered us Slava Voynov in return, I'd pounce on that so fast. I very much doubt they're looking to move him though. If they are looking to move someone on d, they are probably looking to move someone like Martinez instead, just to make room for Voynov.

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11-21-2011, 09:08 AM
  #31
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Here's the problem. A team needs a core of high producers who are experienced bona fide Top 6 types.

Given that Read and Couts are young, Jagr is old, and Talbot is over achieving, the ONLY players that meet the profile are:

Giroux, Briere, Harts and possibly JVR. That's nopt a Top 6 that's a Top 4!

Which means that unless both Simmonds and Voracek turn into regular high producing Top 6-ers, trouble is ahead.

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11-21-2011, 09:22 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by rban View Post
Here's the problem. A team needs a core of high producers who are experienced bona fide Top 6 types.

Given that Read and Couts are young, Jagr is old, and Talbot is over achieving, the ONLY players that meet the profile are:

Giroux, Briere, Harts and possibly JVR. That's nopt a Top 6 that's a Top 4!

Which means that unless both Simmonds and Voracek turn into regular high producing Top 6-ers, trouble is ahead.
haha, now that is some solid logic there.

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11-21-2011, 09:39 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rban View Post
Here's the problem. A team needs a core of high producers who are experienced bona fide Top 6 types.

Given that Read and Couts are young, Jagr is old, and Talbot is over achieving, the ONLY players that meet the profile are:

Giroux, Briere, Harts and possibly JVR. That's nopt a Top 6 that's a Top 4!

Which means that unless both Simmonds and Voracek turn into regular high producing Top 6-ers, trouble is ahead.
JVR, Jagr, and Voracek are most certainly top 6 players. Simmonds needs to put it together but appears to have the potential

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11-21-2011, 10:46 AM
  #34
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Without reading all the replies to this, I will say that things average out.

Read+Talbot will slow down

Simmonds+Voracek will pick up

these are not career PPG players, and we shouldn't expect them to get a lot of points at the same time in the season.

IMO, besides Voracek's turnovers (which have decreased) that group all plays pretty well when not scoring, and for non PPG player's that's all you can expect some nights.

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11-21-2011, 11:03 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by ApeZilla View Post
Without reading all the replies to this, I will say that things average out.

Read+Talbot will slow down

Simmonds+Voracek will pick up

these are not career PPG players, and we shouldn't expect them to get a lot of points at the same time in the season.

IMO, besides Voracek's turnovers (which have decreased) that group all plays pretty well when not scoring, and for non PPG player's that's all you can expect some nights.
Simmonds is fine when he keeps his game simple...dump the puck or get it to his linemates, forecheck like a beast and create havoc in front of the net.

The worse thing that happened to him was he scored some pretty gaols in the pre-season and the start of the reg season. He started trying to do to much.

He'll be fine. I would love to see him pick up some of Hartnell's ability to stir ***** up in front and get under a goalie's skin.

I am glad Homer held out for Simmonds. I read a rumor that LA was pushing Clifford instead of Simmonds.

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11-21-2011, 01:43 PM
  #36
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Simmonds is fine when he keeps his game simple...dump the puck or get it to his linemates, forecheck like a beast and create havoc in front of the net.

The worse thing that happened to him was he scored some pretty gaols in the pre-season and the start of the reg season. He started trying to do to much.

He'll be fine. I would love to see him pick up some of Hartnell's ability to stir ***** up in front and get under a goalie's skin.

I am glad Homer held out for Simmonds. I read a rumor that LA was pushing Clifford instead of Simmonds.

Kings fan coming in peace. Simmonds was one of my favorite Kings and is still one of my favorite players in the league. I watch most of your games when I can just to watch him play. That being said, Simmonds did the same thing last year. He was hot in the preseason and first handful of games and then trailed off. I think the bold above is 100% correct. He needs to keep it simple, and when he starts the season scoring big goals, he thinks he can do more. He forgets what gets him the early goals in the first place, just playing his game. In time, I think he'll mature and understand the game better. He's never going to be a HUGE offensive player, but IMO, a perfect 3rd liner for a championship team who can move up if need be for a pinch. His game (when he plays it) is never pretty, as he doesn't have good hands and his skating is a little Lappy-esque.

That being said, I'd LOVE to have him back with the Kings, but not at the expense of Voynov and I think almost every Kings fan (if not every one) would agree. Voynov looked great playing Doughty's minutes when he missed camp, preseason and a few games due to injury. The guy is the real deal and could easily be a #2 dman if not for the Kings depth. Jim Fox (our color commentator) said he thinks Voynov is the Kings best PP quarterback, and that's with the likes of Doughty and Johnson. Add in, he's only 21 and he'll be something special.

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11-23-2011, 07:55 PM
  #37
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Voracek - has alot of skills and been much more attentive to defensive duty than I feared. Problem is that he lacks vision and mostly makes blind passes out in front of the goal which is a big liability. Carter did the same when he was young (though he shot much more often than he passed so you didn't notice it as much) and eventually became a better (tho not great) passer, so Voracek may improve, but doubt he becomes much of an offensive threat this year. Every now and then he makes a terrific play or two that gets your hope up, but then its back to the lost opportunities from all those blind passes. That being the case, I see the cap challenged Flyers not signing him back next year, which is okay

Simmonds is more complicated. He reminds me a bit of baseball guru Bill James discussion about the Phil's 2B Juan Samuel many years ago. James said the world was full of Juan Samuels - people with intriguing set of skills or qualities, each of which kind of excites you, yet each is largely nullified by a particular liability. For example, Samuels hit very well for a middle infielder, but he was a poor defensive player. He had good speed, but wasn't a useful top of the lineup guy because he wouldn't take walks, he had decent power but not really enough to be a corner OF or 3B. Simmonds may be a similar case, though I still have hope he will be of value. The Samuels arguement: Has good speed but not really the finesse or offensive skills to take much advantage of it offensively; is strong and agreesive and willing to play in front of the net, but doesn;t have great hands and isn;t really all that big

I really like Simmonds and thing we need to hang onto him for a while to see if he can find a role. He is cheap and still young and has abilities, and worse case he hustles like crazy, seems to find the puck alot, isn't bad at either end, can provide physical play (and I would love to be rid of Hartnell).

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11-23-2011, 08:15 PM
  #38
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I disagree with all of the above on voracek

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11-23-2011, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
Couturier is not moving from the 4th line this year book it its not happening hes in a 4th line role to limit his minutes so he does not get overworked in his first full NHL season and round out his already stellar defensive play. He will get top 9 minutes in the future not this year maybe in the playoffs at the end of the year or if we suffer like 5 injuries to Centers. Your arguement towards getting rid of Simmonds is baseless. They are not moving him just to move him right after acquiring him, he's done what they have asked of him.
That's such a BS excuse for keeping Couturier on the 4th line. To limit his minutes so he doesn't get overworked. Give me a god damn break. If it's so bad for 18 year olds to play a lot, then why have guys like Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Gabriel Landeskog, Matt Duchesne, Ryan O'Reilly, Taylor Hall, Jeff Skinner, Evander Kane and John Tavares all played a lot their first year? That's just a cop out. Fact of the matter is that Couturier is probably the second best center on this club and is just as talented as everyone else on the list who has played or are playing more as an 18 year old.

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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
As for Talbot he is expecting a bottom line role anyway it's not punishment he is a role player and knows what his job on the team is. You don't trade depth because your bottom line career role guy is clicking with 2 offensive young dynamos. Depth is a good thing and Talbot fills his role very well.
If you move Briere to the wing, place Couturier on the 2nd line as the center, you can still keep Talbot as the third line center. The big question is, would Laviolette consider using Schenn on the 4th line and we all know the answer is no. Peter would never use his "boy" in that role. After all, when Schenn was initially called up, it was Couturier who was given crap for ice time.

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11-23-2011, 09:04 PM
  #40
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Voracek - has alot of skills and been much more attentive to defensive duty than I feared. Problem is that he lacks vision and mostly makes blind passes out in front of the goal which is a big liability. Carter did the same when he was young (though he shot much more often than he passed so you didn't notice it as much) and eventually became a better (tho not great) passer, so Voracek may improve, but doubt he becomes much of an offensive threat this year. Every now and then he makes a terrific play or two that gets your hope up, but then its back to the lost opportunities from all those blind passes. That being the case, I see the cap challenged Flyers not signing him back next year, which is okay

Simmonds is more complicated. He reminds me a bit of baseball guru Bill James discussion about the Phil's 2B Juan Samuel many years ago. James said the world was full of Juan Samuels - people with intriguing set of skills or qualities, each of which kind of excites you, yet each is largely nullified by a particular liability. For example, Samuels hit very well for a middle infielder, but he was a poor defensive player. He had good speed, but wasn't a useful top of the lineup guy because he wouldn't take walks, he had decent power but not really enough to be a corner OF or 3B. Simmonds may be a similar case, though I still have hope he will be of value. The Samuels arguement: Has good speed but not really the finesse or offensive skills to take much advantage of it offensively; is strong and agreesive and willing to play in front of the net, but doesn;t have great hands and isn;t really all that big

I really like Simmonds and thing we need to hang onto him for a while to see if he can find a role. He is cheap and still young and has abilities, and worse case he hustles like crazy, seems to find the puck alot, isn't bad at either end, can provide physical play (and I would love to be rid of Hartnell).
I don't know which Voracek you're watching, but the one I'm watching has been fantastic while being bounced around from line to line to line. The line of Read - Talbot - Voracek has been one of the better lines and all three guys have high hockey IQs. It's only a matter of time before Voracek sees time with Jagr and Giroux.

As for Simmonds, he would benefit from a guy like Tocchet being on the coaching staff. If Tocchet was able to get through to Steve Downie and help him become a better player, I'm willing to bet Tocchet can get Simmonds to become the game's premier power forward. The skill and ability is there. It's a matter of how to get him to put it all together. I don't understand why Laviolette and company just don't hire Rick to come work on the bench and help a guy like Simmonds get to the next level....

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11-24-2011, 05:17 AM
  #41
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That's such a BS excuse for keeping Couturier on the 4th line. To limit his minutes so he doesn't get overworked. Give me a god damn break. If it's so bad for 18 year olds to play a lot, then why have guys like Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Gabriel Landeskog, Matt Duchesne, Ryan O'Reilly, Taylor Hall, Jeff Skinner, Evander Kane and John Tavares all played a lot their first year? That's just a cop out. Fact of the matter is that Couturier is probably the second best center on this club and is just as talented as everyone else on the list who has played or are playing more as an 18 year old.



If you move Briere to the wing, place Couturier on the 2nd line as the center, you can still keep Talbot as the third line center. The big question is, would Laviolette consider using Schenn on the 4th line and we all know the answer is no. Peter would never use his "boy" in that role. After all, when Schenn was initially called up, it was Couturier who was given crap for ice time.
There is a significant difference between "his Boy" Schenn and Couturier. Schenn has paid his dues in the minors, is 20 years old and is ready to take an active role in the top 6. Couturier still needs to add a great deal of weight to his frame to become a player that can be relied upon in the top 6. With protected minutes he wont take the beatings that other rookies take.

We also cannot take the chance of Couturier burning out with a team icing so many youngsters.

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11-24-2011, 06:28 AM
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Simmonds to the 3rd line please and off power play.

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11-24-2011, 07:36 AM
  #43
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When Schenn's back we could roll these lines:

Hartnell - Giroux - Jagr (Speaks for itself)

JVR- Couturier - Briere (Two big bodies and Couts can over up for Briere)

Read - Schenn - Voracek (Fast, Quick, Skilled)

Nödl/Rinaldo - Talbot - Simmonds ( Energy, Energy, energy..could also help Simmonds understand that he has to simplify his game)

Talk about a deep lineup.

I think its time for Couturier to play with more skilled players and Schenn to develope som chemistry with two players who already has that.

What a 4th line that would be..

As good as that lineup looks now imagine it 2-3 years down the line

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11-24-2011, 08:48 AM
  #44
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That's such a BS excuse for keeping Couturier on the 4th line. To limit his minutes so he doesn't get overworked. Give me a god damn break. If it's so bad for 18 year olds to play a lot, then why have guys like Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Gabriel Landeskog, Matt Duchesne, Ryan O'Reilly, Taylor Hall, Jeff Skinner, Evander Kane and John Tavares all played a lot their first year? That's just a cop out. Fact of the matter is that Couturier is probably the second best center on this club and is just as talented as everyone else on the list who has played or are playing more as an 18 year old.



If you move Briere to the wing, place Couturier on the 2nd line as the center, you can still keep Talbot as the third line center. The big question is, would Laviolette consider using Schenn on the 4th line and we all know the answer is no. Peter would never use his "boy" in that role. After all, when Schenn was initially called up, it was Couturier who was given crap for ice time.
Atlanta, Carolina, Colorado, Edmonton, Islanders weren't planning for a deep playoff run, but the Flyers are? I'm sure Couturier could handle playing some more minutes, but we're a pretty deep team. If Talbot wasn't playing the hockey of his career, I think Couturier would have been on the third line.

He's not given crap for ice time, though. Thirteen minutes or so is not bad for a rookie. He won't win a calder with it, but I don't really give a damn about that. He's also seeing ice time when the game is on the line, that's damn impressive. It's not like he is getting shielded minutes here. The only times he's had his ice time cut drastically have been when we've dressed both Rinaldo and Shelley. That is a bit of a problem, but as long as it doesn't happen too often, it shouldn't hurt Couturier's development at all really.

Schenn (and stop with the "his boy" thing, it's looking really silly) were playing great in the AHL and was racking up points, is older than Couturier and was perhaps showing a little more offensive flair in preseason. If/When he is called back up this time around, I wouldn't mind him starting out with Simmonds and Nödl on his wing (if Jagr is back by then). Call that the fourth line if you want. Couturier with Brière and JvR.

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I don't know which Voracek you're watching, but the one I'm watching has been fantastic while being bounced around from line to line to line. The line of Read - Talbot - Voracek has been one of the better lines and all three guys have high hockey IQs. It's only a matter of time before Voracek sees time with Jagr and Giroux.

As for Simmonds, he would benefit from a guy like Tocchet being on the coaching staff. If Tocchet was able to get through to Steve Downie and help him become a better player, I'm willing to bet Tocchet can get Simmonds to become the game's premier power forward. The skill and ability is there. It's a matter of how to get him to put it all together. I don't understand why Laviolette and company just don't hire Rick to come work on the bench and help a guy like Simmonds get to the next level....
I agree with you on Voracek. He's been impressive the last couple of weeks. That line has found each other and would have scored even more than it has if Voracek hadn't been a bit snake bitten. I'm waiting for him to go on a scoring streak, and I think he will soon. My only problem with him has been when he's been paired with Carle on the pp. That won't work.

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11-27-2011, 09:16 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
That's such a BS excuse for keeping Couturier on the 4th line. To limit his minutes so he doesn't get overworked. Give me a god damn break. If it's so bad for 18 year olds to play a lot, then why have guys like Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Gabriel Landeskog, Matt Duchesne, Ryan O'Reilly, Taylor Hall, Jeff Skinner, Evander Kane and John Tavares all played a lot their first year?
All cr(p teams with far less depth than us.

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11-27-2011, 11:14 AM
  #46
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When Schenn's back we could roll these lines:

Hartnell - Giroux - Jagr (Speaks for itself)

JVR- Couturier - Briere (Two big bodies and Couts can over up for Briere)

Read - Schenn - Voracek (Fast, Quick, Skilled)

Nödl/Rinaldo - Talbot - Simmonds ( Energy, Energy, energy..could also help Simmonds understand that he has to simplify his game)

Talk about a deep lineup.

I think its time for Couturier to play with more skilled players and Schenn to develope som chemistry with two players who already has that.

What a 4th line that would be..

As good as that lineup looks now imagine it 2-3 years down the line
I would maybe swap Vorecek and Briere...Briere, G, and JVR are monsters in the playoffs so it would be cool to see them each on their own line. I like that 4th line though...better than most teams 3rd lines and it gives Simmonds and Talbot a chance to do what they are best at.

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11-27-2011, 01:43 PM
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BillyShoe1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mota View Post
I would maybe swap Vorecek and Briere...Briere, G, and JVR are monsters in the playoffs so it would be cool to see them each on their own line. I like that 4th line though...better than most teams 3rd lines and it gives Simmonds and Talbot a chance to do what they are best at.
7 points in 11 playoff games last year and now JVR is a "monster" in the playoffs? Yeah, he looked phenomenal early in the Boston series, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. He's shown no indication of playing at that level again so far this season.

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