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Terrible drafting in the past

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Old
11-22-2011, 12:20 PM
  #1
BoltSTH
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Terrible drafting in the past

I was looking at are first picks in the draft from 1992-2006. We wasted a lot of high draft picks.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/TBL/draft.html

2006 Riku Helenius 15th BUST?
2005 Vladimir Mihalik 30th BUST
2004 Andy Rogers 30th BUST
2003 Mike Egener 34th Bust but 2nd round
2002 Adam Henrich 60th Waste of a pick
2001 Alexander Svitov 3rd BUST
2000 Nikita Alexeev 8th BUST
1999 Sheldon Keefe 47th Never did much
1998 Vincent Lecavalier 1st
1997 Paul Mara 7th Did nothing with us
1996 Mario Larocque 16th BUST
1995 Daymond Langkow 5th Let go after ELC Sucessful eleswhere
1994 Jason Wiemer 8th Let go after ELC Sucessful elsewhere
1993 Chris Gratton 3rd Never really lived up to 3rd overall
1992 Roman Hamrlik 1st Could not afford to keep
1992 Drew Bannister 26th Bust With bolts 3 times

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Old
11-22-2011, 01:00 PM
  #2
bassassin
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Half the problem was trading a lot of high picks to stay in contention (Gratton for a 2nd rounder (Markstrom) )

Then combine that with Feaster's 'character' picks.

Edit: Oh god just remembered SOB for the 16th overall.

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Old
11-22-2011, 01:10 PM
  #3
The Wyzerhood
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This is a big reason why there's such a large age discrepancy between our core players. Teams with good drafting year after year become sustainable contenders. I'm so happy that we have SFY now running the show and that we drafted well in 08 and 09 (mind you anyone could have made those picks and looked good).

2008 - Stamkos (1)
2009 - Hedman (2), Ashton (29)
2010 - Connolly (6)
2011 - Namestnikov (27)

Needed to point this out to feel better about myself after seeing that original list

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Old
11-22-2011, 02:00 PM
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Felonious Python
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Plenty of these were not wasted picks on their own, it was either the team's inability to keep them, or develop them 'quickly enough' that led management to letting them go too soon.

2006 Riku Helenius 15th BUST?
2005 Vladimir Mihalik 30th BUST
2004 Andy Rogers 30th BUST

2001 Alexander Svitov 3rd BUST
2000 Nikita Alexeev 8th BUST

1996 Mario Larocque 16th BUST

1992 Drew Bannister 26th Bust With bolts 3 times

I'm leaving out the years where the first pick was out of the first round, as those really shouldn't count as a 'high pick'. Out of the top 20 is pushing it.

Bannister had character issues for one, and Langkow refused to report to the minors, so **** that guy.

I also found this:
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/199...g-defenseman/2

Quote:
"I'll be the first to admit that it's not worked out like we hoped,'' said GM Phil Esposito. "But I think the big problem is we're forcing kids to play at 18, 19 years old. That's too young. And the expectations are so high. Look at Roman. He's 23, 24 and we had to move him. Wiemer, same thing. You can't wait forever to develop kids.''
The lack of money for scouting was almost always an issue. Relying on video tape instead of human people in rinks, watching. They also couldn't get a steady affiliate after the Knights moved until the Detroit Vipers, but that was paired with managerial incompetence. However since then, (03-04 not withstanding) we've been pretty steady with affiliates. That doesn't mean much for high picks, if they're being rushed into the lineup, but now we've got Carter Ashton in Norfolk, and Connolly would be there too if he weren't so dominant over the WHL. Things like that would be completely unheard of a couple of years ago.

The early owners didn't want to spend the money to do it the right way, and it cost them wins.


Last edited by Felonious Python: 11-22-2011 at 02:16 PM.
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Old
11-22-2011, 02:22 PM
  #5
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There's a good story in the books 'Future Great and Heartbreaks' by Gare Joyce where he talks about the Lightning being cash-strapped going into the 1998 draft. Because of this, head scout Don Murdoch basically had to identify the top 2 prospects for that draft and spend weeks scouting those two players (Lecavalier and David Legwand). Ironically, it was this lack of cash that allowed the Lightning to make a coup in the draft when they grabbed at 64th overall, Brad Richards. It was likely only because Murdoch repeatedly saw Richards play as Lecavalier's linemate that he was able to see something in him other scouts did not.

The saddest footnote to the story was that when the World Juniors came around, GM Phil Esposito wouldn't let Murdoch travel to the WJCs because he, instead, sent his brother Tony instead. There's a story about Tony talking to Lecavalier's father Rene and the scouts assumed he was pumping him for information. When asked, Rene said "I don't think he had any idea who I was and he might not have any idea who Vincent is."

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Old
11-22-2011, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caley View Post
There's a good story in the books 'Future Great and Heartbreaks' by Gare Joyce where he talks about the Lightning being cash-strapped going into the 1998 draft. Because of this, head scout Don Murdoch basically had to identify the top 2 prospects for that draft and spend weeks scouting those two players (Lecavalier and David Legwand). Ironically, it was this lack of cash that allowed the Lightning to make a coup in the draft when they grabbed at 64th overall, Brad Richards. It was likely only because Murdoch repeatedly saw Richards play as Lecavalier's linemate that he was able to see something in him other scouts did not.

The saddest footnote to the story was that when the World Juniors came around, GM Phil Esposito wouldn't let Murdoch travel to the WJCs because he, instead, sent his brother Tony instead. There's a story about Tony talking to Lecavalier's father Rene and the scouts assumed he was pumping him for information. When asked, Rene said "I don't think he had any idea who I was and he might not have any idea who Vincent is."
There is also an anecdote about Lightning management asking Vinny about who he thought would be a good pick, and he suggested Brad Richards.

The real story is probably more in favor of Murdoch, but Vinny is the star, so everyone is going to talk about that skew.

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Old
11-22-2011, 03:58 PM
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For all the bad OK hockey did I am thankful they cleaned out the scouting staff.

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11-22-2011, 05:29 PM
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Feaster mortgaged the future, and couldn't overcome the limited assets he left himself with. Between his ideals and the scouting staff, their drafting was awful.

On a side note, as much as I love to hate on Feaster, the recent drafts look promising but until they've actually arrived you can't count them as successes. And the no brainer picks don't really count.

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11-22-2011, 06:30 PM
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Looking at that mid 2000's draft record is why I feel sorry for Flames fans. Even if they suck, they're still not going to get anything in the draft.

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11-22-2011, 11:25 PM
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I remember Esposito saying he was having a tough time deciding whether he should sign Richards to an NHL contract. He told him that this was his last chance to show him had had improved enough to earn a contract. Thankfully he did otherwise we may not have a Stanley Cup....

Never ever considered Weimer as being anything more than average at best...

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Old
11-23-2011, 12:25 PM
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Picking Hedman over Duchene not looking so good either

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Old
11-23-2011, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultra63 View Post
Picking Hedman over Duchene not looking so good either
Really? LOL.

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Old
11-23-2011, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ultra63 View Post
Picking Hedman over Duchene not looking so good either
He would be stuck in the 3rd line if he wanted to play center

And we would have had some more lottery picks

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Old
11-23-2011, 12:56 PM
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Rschmitz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucLight View Post
I remember Esposito saying he was having a tough time deciding whether he should sign Richards to an NHL contract. He told him that this was his last chance to show him had had improved enough to earn a contract. Thankfully he did otherwise we may not have a Stanley Cup....

Never ever considered Weimer as being anything more than average at best...
I think your talking about Dudley.

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Old
11-23-2011, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by viktors89 View Post
He would be stuck in the 3rd line if he wanted to play center

And we would have had some more lottery picks
It looks like Hedman will get us in the lottery

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Old
11-23-2011, 01:08 PM
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6'6" defensemen are projects no matter how soon they make it to the NHL. I will say that I expected him break out big this season and it hasn't happened.

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11-23-2011, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultra63 View Post
It looks like Hedman will get us in the lottery
Hedman is hardly the only one to blame for the season thus far. Let's not lay all the blame on his shoulders when there are plenty of other guys to call out.

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Old
11-23-2011, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rschmitz View Post
I think your talking about Dudley.
No, I remember it distinctly being Esposito. If it was Dudley, he'd be Richardsov....

Richards was drafted by Espo in 1998 with Dudley following in 99. Not sure if it was Espo that signed him or Dudley but I recall Esposito saying he had to improve his skating especially before he would sign him.


Last edited by TBLHoser: 11-23-2011 at 03:54 PM.
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Old
11-23-2011, 06:17 PM
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Rschmitz
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Originally Posted by BucLight View Post
No, I remember it distinctly being Esposito. If it was Dudley, he'd be Richardsov....

Richards was drafted by Espo in 1998 with Dudley following in 99. Not sure if it was Espo that signed him or Dudley but I recall Esposito saying he had to improve his skating especially before he would sign him.
Esposito was canned only months after the 98 draft. Richards was still several years away from being in danger or re-entering the draft, so I don't understand why Esposito would say it was Richards "last chance to show him he improved enough to earn an NHL contract". Burning a 3rd round pick and then a few months later evaluating the pick as a potential loss doesn't sound right.

Dudley on the other hand was extremely reluctant to sign Richards. It took Richards putting up the best numbers in the QMJHL since Lemieux and carrying Oceanic on his back to winning the Memerial Cup trophy in order to change his mind, or risk looking like a fool.

Esposito may have said Richards needed to improve his skating, I don't know, but Richards known weakness at the draft was his skating. But if he did, he was never in any danger at that point of receiving or not receiving a contract.

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Old
11-23-2011, 09:30 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultra63 View Post
It looks like Hedman will get us in the lottery
How so? He's been one of our best defensemen. We were really hurt when he was out of the lineup. Our defense is far from stellar, so I think it's very important he continues to play against other teams top players and log as many minutes as he has.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rschmitz View Post
6'6" defensemen are projects no matter how soon they make it to the NHL. I will say that I expected him break out big this season and it hasn't happened.
I'm not sure if Dan Lacroix and the coaching staff are really letting him "break out." I think they still want to take it nice and slow with him and right now his play has been simple, yet very solid. They want him thinking defense first so until they actually start playing on the pp I don't think his points will go up. They also want him making the safe play with his stick instead of looking to line up the big hit, so I guess until he has more experience like Ohlund, Clark, or Brewer who are all good judges on when to throw a mean check, he's going to use his long reach instead of his big size. We know he has that dominance inside him when the intensity arose in the playoffs.

I do think he has improved this year in responsibility. In the 2 years past he's played big minutes but we always had a guy like Lundin, or Ohlund, or Brewer to lean on. Right now Brewer and him are being forced to play top minutes every night. He plays more ES and PK minutes than anybody else, and even though Brewer plays on the 1st pp unit while Hedman sees no pp time, Brewer is only averaging 7 seconds of ice time more than Victor each night.

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Old
11-24-2011, 02:30 PM
  #21
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The Lightning were terrible in the draft? Welcome to the party, pal.

Espo/Murdoch did OK with top 10 picks, but in 7 seasons managed to only add Richards and Kubina outside the top 10. I could add Bryce Salvador, but Espo didn't sign him. Gavey lost his edge after that accident where he got seriously cut, IMO. Brantt Myhres was an alki and huge disappointment. Story I once heard was that Espo/Murdoch wanted to draft Selivanov and waited until the 6th round where they had 2 picks. Somehow, Murdoch went to the bathroom and no one selected Selivanov (Juden/Salvador back to back). Philly then took him 2 picks later. So Phil offered Philly a 4th in the next draft for his rights. Cory Cross was actually a shrewd pick no matter how disliked he is or was.

Obviously Dudley's 3 drafts were abhorrent. He went into the drafts with the 1st, 5th and 3rd respectively and ended up with nothing. Granted, in '99 only the Sedin's panned out. So he should get props for getting out of that 1st round, but he still traded away for ultimately very little. In 2000, he had the 5th and 8th overall and got....wait for it...nothing. In 2001 we lost the lottery and instead of Spezza, we get Svitov. Most people liked that pick, at the time. Except for those who wanted Chitov. I remember the Gratton/Kariya comparisons. 2nd round and later was useless,with only Artyhukin showing anything. His head was bigger than his talent. Dudley looked for any excuse to not sign Richards. If Richards had gotten an injury or the flu and not put up those giant numbers in the playoffs he goes back into the draft. The PR hit would have been too huge to not add that production, albeit in QMJHL, when you're the worst team in the NHL.

The only excuse I can make for Feaster is his draft picks might have done better in the old pre lockout NHL. Once the refs cracked down, Smaby, Mihalak, et al were useless.

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Old
11-24-2011, 06:36 PM
  #22
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How so? He's been one of our best defensemen. We were really hurt when he was out of the lineup. Our defense is far from stellar, so I think it's very important he continues to play against other teams top players and log as many minutes as he has.


I'm not sure if Dan Lacroix and the coaching staff are really letting him "break out." I think they still want to take it nice and slow with him and right now his play has been simple, yet very solid. They want him thinking defense first so until they actually start playing on the pp I don't think his points will go up. They also want him making the safe play with his stick instead of looking to line up the big hit, so I guess until he has more experience like Ohlund, Clark, or Brewer who are all good judges on when to throw a mean check, he's going to use his long reach instead of his big size. We know he has that dominance inside him when the intensity arose in the playoffs.

I do think he has improved this year in responsibility. In the 2 years past he's played big minutes but we always had a guy like Lundin, or Ohlund, or Brewer to lean on. Right now Brewer and him are being forced to play top minutes every night. He plays more ES and PK minutes than anybody else, and even though Brewer plays on the 1st pp unit while Hedman sees no pp time, Brewer is only averaging 7 seconds of ice time more than Victor each night.
I don't understand the hate from Hedman. Dmen always develop slower than offensive players, but I think Hedman has steadily improved and is actually quite impressive at this point in his career. Obviously Boucher has some faith in him considering he is on the ice anytime it matters and kills entire powerplays himself. The only worry I have with him is how the Lightning will afford him since he is a RFA this offseason.

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Old
11-24-2011, 07:20 PM
  #23
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Well, I'm not on the coaching staff so obviously I have no idea whats being said. But last season I thought he put up a solid defensive campaign and looked poised to break out offensively. So it is disappointing that that hasn't happened yet, because his offensive production is on pace to go down a lot this year, with no difference in PP time. Plenty of explanations for that, the obvious one being Ohlund is hurt.

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