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Old
11-25-2011, 02:12 AM
  #101
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Rangers rank 29th out of 30 in PP with their 12,2%. Only St. Louis is behind with 8,6%.

Last year Zuccarello lead the Rangers in PP-assists with only 42 games.... That should count for something, or what? Rangers need to get the PP going, and I think Zuccarello can help with this.

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11-25-2011, 03:19 AM
  #102
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"Blueshirtblitz" has many good and logical arguments, but I don't think we should use this thread to talk more about Zuccarello when Hagelin and Mitchell deserves this one.

Then it's better to create a new thread that deals with the coach and his decisions.


Last edited by blixt: 11-25-2011 at 03:49 AM.
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11-25-2011, 03:38 AM
  #103
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Fan reaction to Zuccarello reminds me a lot of the way a lot of our fans feltt about Jarkko Immonen

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Old
11-25-2011, 04:34 AM
  #104
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And who was totally invisible this year...
Because he didn't play this year!! Please provide a smiley hammering it's head against a concrete wall.

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Old
11-25-2011, 04:51 AM
  #105
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Fan reaction to Zuccarello reminds me a lot of the way a lot of our fans feltt about Jarkko Immonen
Not mine.

Immonen wasn't really good at anything.

Zuc's top end ability is really really good. He certainly needs to be put in a environment that suits him to have a shot (which is the case with most players).

I am not terribly upset with how Torts has threated Zuc. We have Gabby and Callan on RW, and its just awfully hard for Zuc to get a shot on a top 2-line role. That's life.

So, while its perfectly possible to say that Zuc has been given a fair shot, its very hard to argue that he has been given a good shot -- if you get what I mean. Most of the time when he has been on the ice, he have been the one who has been forced to take the biggest defensive responsibility on his line, and so forth. He has not been played in a top 6 role. Often small minutes.

But I personally, when looking at this roster, wonder if we have enough playmaking ability and creativity to put forth a very good season -- and you kind of make your own bed. Not many coaches gets a perfect roster nowadays. You need to be able to work with what you got. The last thing Torts said after last year was that we did not have enough talent. This year, Zuc gets one game on a 3rd line and two games on a 4th line -- at a time when, much to Torts fault, we were ridiculously unprepaired to enter a regular season of the NHL.

Looking at our lineup as a whole; from Dubi to Cally, Fedetenko, Devaux/Newbury, Prust and Boyle, heck even Christensen (no creativity), Sean Avery of course -- and so forth, you got an awful lot of hardworking players getting a ton of ice time, and very very very little creativity and top end ability.

I certainly think its legit to ask, could not more be done to get Zuc on the team? He has to do it himself on the ice of course -- but could he like once be given a shot in a top 6 role? I am a pretty sceptical dude, but I wouldn't rule out Zuc hitting it off as a LW playing with Richards-Callahan. I wonder if Zuc has been given 5 shifts on a line next to Anisimov.

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11-25-2011, 04:51 AM
  #106
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if your only contribution is on the powerplay you should not be on an nhl team. 5 on 5 he is complete liability. we have a team full of guys who pass well and don't finish well, we don't need any more. the rest of those guys are also much better defensively, and much more balanced players. 6 goals in 42 games isn't exactly what we're looking for. he doesn't skate well, he doesn't forecheck, he's an average shooter and gets bullied around by everyone bigger than him on the ice (so...everyone on the ice)

if you watched him in the nhl this preseason and regular season he has been completely undeserving of a spot.
He's small, but he isn't a liability, he plays really good PK in the whale, and heavily contributed in keeping the Pirates in their own zone on their PP, leading to a shorthanded goal that tied the game for Whale (that they later won). He's a good skater, but not elite, and he forchecks.

He also takes on guys alot bigger than himself, so I wouldn't say he's bullied around. Yhea, maybe he loses most of the board battles, but at least he tries, and his OT goal against Carolina (that in retrospect, put us ahead of Carolina for the final spot in the playoffs), place him a bit over "average shooter".

You mean the preseason where everyone said he repetedly where the best Ranger on the ice?

edit: Zuccarello (5'6") laying down Datalinka (6'5") in preason is the perfect example that he doesn't get dominated that much as some of you apparently think.


Last edited by anofsti: 11-25-2011 at 05:00 AM. Reason: The video
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Old
11-25-2011, 06:02 AM
  #107
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if your only contribution is on the powerplay you should not be on an nhl team. 5 on 5 he is complete liability. we have a team full of guys who pass well and don't finish well, we don't need any more. the rest of those guys are also much better defensively, and much more balanced players. 6 goals in 42 games isn't exactly what we're looking for. he doesn't skate well, he doesn't forecheck, he's an average shooter and gets bullied around by everyone bigger than him on the ice (so...everyone on the ice)

if you watched him in the nhl this preseason and regular season he has been completely undeserving of a spot.
These kind of arguments amazes me

Yes, 6 goals in 42 games is not VERY impressiv, but his total points are IMO really good. 23 points in 42 games, .55 p/game. Almost the exact same as Stepan, and with this pace through the whole season it would hold to a 5th place for rookies. He played most of his minutes in the third line. Even more impressive.

Zuke is a playmaker and I wouldn´t expect more than about 15 goals from him in a full NHL season. But he would be capable of putting up a huge amount of assists. Definetely a 60-70 points guy.

If we are not looking for 6 goals in 42 games, are we looking for 11 golas in 63 games (EC)? Are we looking for 12 goals in 73 games (WW)?

Last season EC had 27 points in 63 games => .43
Last season WW had 35 points in 73 games => .48
Both beaten by Zuccarello.

I have no problems with people´s opinion about Zuke, that they prefer EC and WW and others, but please don´t use his stats to argue with, as he was in the top last year in points/game, points/minute and actually lead the Rangers last years with PP assists.

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Old
11-25-2011, 06:17 AM
  #108
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Now watch Hagelin get put on the 2nd line after Torts saying there is no room for MZA haha

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11-25-2011, 06:53 AM
  #109
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First of all, this is a thread about Hagelin & Mitchell getting called up. I congratulate both. With them both getting the recall, and only Deveaux getting suspended, I think it might mean that someone else might be gone. The likely candidate here is Eric Christensen, but with Torts you never know. It might be Avery getting sent down again. That would create some storm though...

You got to figure that Deveauxs spot is filled by Mitchell. Who:s spot is Hagelin going to take? Seems a bit weird... Is somebody not fresh? A trade coming? Someone else going down? Or are we back to using 13 fwds (Probably meaning that WW & Prust replace Mitchell & Hagelin when they are back)? Seems like the most plausible situation.

AA - Steps - Gaborik
Dubi - Richards - Cally
Feds - Boyle - Prust
Avery - Mitchell/Christ - Hagelin

is the likely lineup - until the daily Torts shuffling starts...

Our main problem is that we presently do not have a 3rd line that can contribute offensively. Using Feds - Boyle - Prust as a 3rd line is not gonna cut it. But with the current roster setup and Torts philosophy on who he wants to ride hard in the top 6 - we are forced to see this. Since Dubinsky is underproducing and the other 5 are not consistent in producing points - we are in a fix as the bottom 6 have been doing very little offensively. You might exclude Gaborik (16 points in 18 games) & possibly Richards here (13 points in 18 games - not really up to par to the enormous contract he was rewarded - yet) if you like - but I do not think that 71 points in 18 games in our top 6 (ie 3.94 points per game or 0.65 points per player) is impressive or going to cut it in the long run for a functional top 6 on a competing team.

Is it the coach? The system? You tell me. Do not tell me these players do not have a higher potential to produce more points on a game to game basis than they have done so far. History proves this wrong - although I admit 18 games is maybe still too small a window to make general & final conclusions. But we have played some of the "lighter" part of the schedule so far - facing teams record is 125 - 123 - 37. We have only had 2 divisional games so far - both against the Islanders (29th in the league - lost once). We have 22 tough divisional matchups left this season - and only 4 of them against the Piles... We are currently on pace for 2.61 GPG (19th in the league). As we have a very good 2.11 GA per game - we are winning some games. The excellent GAA puts us at a 3rd in the league - without Marc Staal having played a single minute. Impressive - to say the least. But contradicts "the safe is death" strategy altogether.

Another thing - outside of most statistics - is that our offensive play has been poor in general. This can really be seen in SOG stats (we are currently 30th in the league with 25,1 shots for per game/ 24th spot in the NHL in shots against per game allowing 31,7 on the average) , but also how my general opinion is after having watched basically every game this year. The team has not put up many games with an impressive offensive attack. Maybe 2-3 real good 60 minute efforts. We have often won due to stellar goaltending and defense, some good luck and sometimes abysmal opposition.

Our special teams units are interesting - Fire & Ice. 9th in the league in penalty killing (which is acceptable - even good), but a wretched 29th on the PP. The PP is so bad now that it is a downright disgrace. Coaching staff seems not to have a clue what to do and the players seem scared of reprucussions to invoke creativity. Look at Floridas or Montreals PP compared to ours. Constant press, good puck movement a sound strategy. Since PP is one place where strategy (ie coaching) has a big impact - I think this speaks volumes. There is no good plan here at all (not saying the players do not lack responsibility here too) and the results prove this. We need a creative & new strategy here *(stop the dump & chase on the PP) - this is just not working!!! I doubt any of the 2 new callups can contribute here - but time will tell. Our defensemen have on the other hand - produced over expectations. Which is good. And are goaltending has for the most part been stellar. I repeat - we are 3rd in the league here!

As to some comments posted in the thread - i will comment this below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
And who was totally invisible this year...
Put any player in the league on ice for 3 games with an average ice time of 8:25 and 95% of the time you will get a similiar result. This is an ignorant comment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
We already tried that this year. He didn't show anything worthy of us giving him more ice-time.
He played 5 minutes and 43 seconds so far this year on the power play. Are you for real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by petejudge View Post
don't you think, in any way, that mza was part of the reason the team looked so bad? our problem through the first 5-6 games of the season was that there was no forecheck and a lack of size. remember that the team got bigger (deveaux, avery) and instantly became a much better team? don't forget that even though the rangers just lost 2 games in a row, before that they won 7 straight.

our early season problems were caused by players like wolski and mza who don't take the body or contribute anything on defense. why would you want guys like that anywhere near this team?
I think your general assesment is totally wrong here - but that you have one point that is totally right. Zucc (and Wolski) are both offensive and creative players. If you stick them on a 4th line role - they are useless. Putting together a potent 3rd line is the key here. If you can move the grinders down a line and have a 3rd line with offense - you have a better balanced team. Wolskis injury hampered this. And inevitably lead to Zuccarellos demotion. If we can spread out the scoring & attack - we will be harder to play against almost certainly resulting in more goals per game. I think this was Torts plan all along - but Wolski was hurt and he went to a grinding bottom 6. It will be very interesting to see what happens when Wolski returns (I think he will be slotted into top 6 for at least 5-10 games) and if we can create an acceptable 3rd line. If Wolski does not work out - almost sure he will be traded. Sooner than later. If he does fit in the top 6 - I see MZA getting a callup then. Is this enough to appease the Norwegians on the board? Probably not...


Last edited by BBKers: 11-25-2011 at 07:01 AM.
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Old
11-25-2011, 09:15 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
First of all, this is a thread about Hagelin & Mitchell getting called up. I congratulate both. With them both getting the recall, and only Deveaux getting suspended, I think it might mean that someone else might be gone. The likely candidate here is Eric Christensen, but with Torts you never know. It might be Avery getting sent down again. That would create some storm though...

You got to figure that Deveauxs spot is filled by Mitchell. Who:s spot is Hagelin going to take? Seems a bit weird... Is somebody not fresh? A trade coming? Someone else going down? Or are we back to using 13 fwds (Probably meaning that WW & Prust replace Mitchell & Hagelin when they are back)? Seems like the most plausible situation.

AA - Steps - Gaborik
Dubi - Richards - Cally
Feds - Boyle - Prust
Avery - Mitchell/Christ - Hagelin

is the likely lineup - until the daily Torts shuffling starts...

Our main problem is that we presently do not have a 3rd line that can contribute offensively. Using Feds - Boyle - Prust as a 3rd line is not gonna cut it. But with the current roster setup and Torts philosophy on who he wants to ride hard in the top 6 - we are forced to see this. Since Dubinsky is underproducing and the other 5 are not consistent in producing points - we are in a fix as the bottom 6 have been doing very little offensively. You might exclude Gaborik (16 points in 18 games) & possibly Richards here (13 points in 18 games - not really up to par to the enormous contract he was rewarded - yet) if you like - but I do not think that 71 points in 18 games in our top 6 (ie 3.94 points per game or 0.65 points per player) is impressive or going to cut it in the long run for a functional top 6 on a competing team.

Is it the coach? The system? You tell me. Do not tell me these players do not have a higher potential to produce more points on a game to game basis than they have done so far. History proves this wrong - although I admit 18 games is maybe still too small a window to make general & final conclusions. But we have played some of the "lighter" part of the schedule so far - facing teams record is 125 - 123 - 37. We have only had 2 divisional games so far - both against the Islanders (29th in the league - lost once). We have 22 tough divisional matchups left this season - and only 4 of them against the Piles... We are currently on pace for 2.61 GPG (19th in the league). As we have a very good 2.11 GA per game - we are winning some games. The excellent GAA puts us at a 3rd in the league - without Marc Staal having played a single minute. Impressive - to say the least. But contradicts "the safe is death" strategy altogether.

Another thing - outside of most statistics - is that our offensive play has been poor in general. This can really be seen in SOG stats (we are currently 30th in the league with 25,1 shots for per game/ 24th spot in the NHL in shots against per game allowing 31,7 on the average) , but also how my general opinion is after having watched basically every game this year. The team has not put up many games with an impressive offensive attack. Maybe 2-3 real good 60 minute efforts. We have often won due to stellar goaltending and defense, some good luck and sometimes abysmal opposition.

Our special teams units are interesting - Fire & Ice. 9th in the league in penalty killing (which is acceptable - even good), but a wretched 29th on the PP. The PP is so bad now that it is a downright disgrace. Coaching staff seems not to have a clue what to do and the players seem scared of reprucussions to invoke creativity. Look at Floridas or Montreals PP compared to ours. Constant press, good puck movement a sound strategy. Since PP is one place where strategy (ie coaching) has a big impact - I think this speaks volumes. There is no good plan here at all (not saying the players do not lack responsibility here too) and the results prove this. We need a creative & new strategy here *(stop the dump & chase on the PP) - this is just not working!!! I doubt any of the 2 new callups can contribute here - but time will tell. Our defensemen have on the other hand - produced over expectations. Which is good. And are goaltending has for the most part been stellar. I repeat - we are 3rd in the league here!

As to some comments posted in the thread - i will comment this below:



Put any player in the league on ice for 3 games with an average ice time of 8:25 and 95% of the time you will get a similiar result. This is an ignorant comment



He played 5 minutes and 43 seconds so far this year on the power play. Are you for real?



I think your general assesment is totally wrong here - but that you have one point that is totally right. Zucc (and Wolski) are both offensive and creative players. If you stick them on a 4th line role - they are useless. Putting together a potent 3rd line is the key here. If you can move the grinders down a line and have a 3rd line with offense - you have a better balanced team. Wolskis injury hampered this. And inevitably lead to Zuccarellos demotion. If we can spread out the scoring & attack - we will be harder to play against almost certainly resulting in more goals per game. I think this was Torts plan all along - but Wolski was hurt and he went to a grinding bottom 6. It will be very interesting to see what happens when Wolski returns (I think he will be slotted into top 6 for at least 5-10 games) and if we can create an acceptable 3rd line. If Wolski does not work out - almost sure he will be traded. Sooner than later. If he does fit in the top 6 - I see MZA getting a callup then. Is this enough to appease the Norwegians on the board? Probably not...
You did real good here

In fact this is a great post with many realy good points who I tottaly agreed on.

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Old
11-25-2011, 09:21 AM
  #111
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Im fine with the callups, especially Hagelin who possess the ability to play on the bottom 6 and the speed that this team lacks.

In regards to Zuccarello, he is a flawed player - plain and simple. No size, poor speed, and little to no awareness away from the puck. When the only positives you can list about a player is their points per game or points per minute, it means they aren't playing many games or minutes - and theres usually 3 reasons for that.

1. they dont have the size/conditioning to play big-time NHL minutes.
2. their offensive creativity is offset by a total lack of awareness when it comes to other parts of the game.
3. In rare cases, its just the coach ****ing up

While a lot of people want to pin this on Torts, the harsh truth is its #'s 1 and 2 when it comes to Zuccarello

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11-25-2011, 09:33 AM
  #112
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not sure why people are saying some of these things. Zuke is small but great at avoiding checks and throws his body around when he needs to. I think if he were called up he would kick some ***. that's just my opinion.

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11-25-2011, 09:37 AM
  #113
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I say Zucc is overrated big time now.

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11-25-2011, 09:51 AM
  #114
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i thought mitchell was one of our most effective guys in the preseason + exhibition games. hes doing very well for the whale... give him a shot.

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11-25-2011, 09:52 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by NYRangerSince05 View Post
I say Zucc is overrated big time now.
I say he'll be traded before the All Star Break. I was hoping he would be a good trade chip for a rental LW but not so sure now. Zuke plus of course.

Have to look at the teams struggling like CLB. Would anyone consider Brassard even though he's a C? Still young enough to be a nice pickup

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11-25-2011, 10:02 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Im fine with the callups, especially Hagelin who possess the ability to play on the bottom 6 and the speed that this team lacks.

In regards to Zuccarello, he is a flawed player - plain and simple. No size, poor speed, and little to no awareness away from the puck. When the only positives you can list about a player is their points per game or points per minute, it means they aren't playing many games or minutes - and theres usually 3 reasons for that.

1. they dont have the size/conditioning to play big-time NHL minutes.
2. their offensive creativity is offset by a total lack of awareness when it comes to other parts of the game.
3. In rare cases, its just the coach ****ing up

While a lot of people want to pin this on Torts, the harsh truth is its #'s 1 and 2 when it comes to Zuccarello
I don't know where this "poor" speed comes from, I'll agree that he isn't as fast as Hagelin or St. Louis, but he isn't slow either.

And I don't really see his defensive flaws, he's positionally sound finding open space, and being ready to pounce in to steal the puck when there are board battles and he did finished at a tied 8th place in the +/- for forwards last year too, above Prust, Dubi, Callahan, Drury and Avery amongst others, while recording 19 blocked shots and 56 hits making him tied at 9th at total hits. Recorded only 6 giveaways, while recorded 16 takeaways.

edit: Look, I even made a spreadsheet, using the data on http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...tssPlayerStats

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...jN3TXVuemFTeUE

And while he's tenth in takeaways each match, he is fourth in giveaways (as in low number=higher), he's sixth in Giveaway/Takeaway ratio, having 2.667 takeaways for each giveaway. He threw more hits/game than Boogard, and blocked more shots/game than Prust or Dubi.


Last edited by anofsti: 11-25-2011 at 10:19 AM. Reason: Crunched the numbers
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11-25-2011, 11:01 AM
  #117
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Hope EC sits.
Hope EC is moved, MZA returns to Europe.

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11-25-2011, 12:51 PM
  #118
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Just for the HELL of it, I'm putting both guys on my fantasy team and will be watching every shift tonight...

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11-25-2011, 12:59 PM
  #119
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Hagelin has been playing real well. Mitchell is more a prototypical 4th liner than Zuccarello. Mitchell has a lot of NHL experience, has more size and is a more rounded player. You can use him to pk--put him in defensive situations.

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11-25-2011, 01:03 PM
  #120
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I say he'll be traded before the All Star Break. I was hoping he would be a good trade chip for a rental LW but not so sure now. Zuke plus of course.

Have to look at the teams struggling like CLB. Would anyone consider Brassard even though he's a C? Still young enough to be a nice pickup
Consider? We'd have to add to get Brassard. He's a good young center. Zucc isn't anything right now. He's off to a ****** start but he almost put up 50 points last year..

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11-25-2011, 01:04 PM
  #121
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Cap hit?

Zipay said something about there being "cap considerations" for not bringing up MZA now. I guess that MZA was not an appropriate callup for Deveaux - but the Hagelin callup then (for around $900k less in caphit than MZA - excluding a bunch of bonus money MZA will never make) means we are over cap anyway and need to utilize LTIR money anyway (Staal & Kolarik both are counting against the cap while being out long-term and can be put on LTIR if wanted). No?
I do not understand this 100% - maybe someone can elaborate. Or are they just trying to save a bit of money? Either way - it will be interesting to see what the 2 newbies can bring to the table tonite (if they even play). I hope Hagelin gets some time with Richards...

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11-25-2011, 01:09 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Zipay said something about there being "cap considerations" for not bringing up MZA now. I guess that MZA was not an appropriate callup for Deveaux - but the Hagelin callup then (for around $900k less in caphit than MZA - excluding a bunch of bonus money MZA will never make) means we are over cap anyway and need to utilize LTIR money anyway (Staal & Kolarik both are counting against the cap while being out long-term and can be put on LTIR if wanted). No?
I do not understand this 100% - maybe someone can elaborate. Or are they just trying to save a bit of money? Either way - it will be interesting to see what the 2 newbies can bring to the table tonite (if they even play). I hope Hagelin gets some time with Richards...
I think Hagelin will do allright, especially if he plays with someone that can feed him.

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11-25-2011, 01:12 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Zipay said something about there being "cap considerations" for not bringing up MZA now. I guess that MZA was not an appropriate callup for Deveaux - but the Hagelin callup then (for around $900k less in caphit than MZA - excluding a bunch of bonus money MZA will never make) means we are over cap anyway and need to utilize LTIR money anyway (Staal & Kolarik both are counting against the cap while being out long-term and can be put on LTIR if wanted). No?
I do not understand this 100% - maybe someone can elaborate. Or are they just trying to save a bit of money? Either way - it will be interesting to see what the 2 newbies can bring to the table tonite (if they even play). I hope Hagelin gets some time with Richards...
I think it comes down to the trade deadline. The Hawks were pinching pennies last year sending their players down after every game so they had less days on the NHL squad, which lowers the amount of cap hit put on in the end. I think Zuccarello will be back somewhere around the deadline, allstar break as some here have indicated.

To be OT: very interested to see Hagelin play. I thought he could make the NHL squad from camp, but sending him to CT to get big minutes there and adjust to the NHL game was good for him. His speed will be a much needed asset and should get some nice minutes with I'm hoping is a line of Boyle, Feds, and himself.

Mitchell is up because he is well suited for a bottom 6 role, and could find himself on the 4th line today with guys like Prust and Avery.

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11-25-2011, 02:13 PM
  #124
ncmike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitto79 View Post
I think it's inevitable our buddy Zuke is traded at some pt.

I believe Torts indicated he's not touching the Anisimov, Stepan, Gaborik line so the others should be interesting.

Maybe for the heck of it Hagelin, Richards, Callahan.....
..Dubinsky, Boyle, Fedotenko..........Avery, Mitchell, Prust

I would just switch Fedotenko with Prust

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Old
11-25-2011, 02:20 PM
  #125
BlueshirtBlitz
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Originally Posted by NYRangerSince05 View Post
I say Zucc is overrated big time now.
Let's see.

There's stats proving he was valuable last year.

The only thing MZA is right now, is misused. He should be on the roster and we should be seeing if he can play in the NHL or not.

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