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Gm #22 Kings @ Stars, 11/23/11 - POST GAME Lose in OT!, THOUGHTS & TIDBITS

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11-25-2011, 05:53 PM
  #276
The Black1963
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Kevin Westgarth has the same amount of points as those two guys COMBINED. In less games too boot.

Think about that for a moment. Why do they deserve any Ice time what so ever?

Lewis and Richardson have been garbage. The last few games they have been out. The Bottom lines have at least had an Identity

I am a Big Lewis fan as well, Love his D. But good god man you need to bring something else as well.

They will both be back in the lineup at some point, but sit em now let them stew a little.
Well, I think that's a little shortsighted to be honest. Just because Westy's scored his first goal in 60+ games doesn't mean he's a better scorer than Lewis or Richie. Granted, the 4th line has looked ok, but I can also see the benefit of having some speed back in the lineup. And I definitely don't agree with the garbage remark. Lewis and Richie are both serviceable forwards who have yet to find their scoring touch. Far from garbage imo.

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11-25-2011, 06:21 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Everyone has "up and down" seasons, but the average over 82 games is the better indication. Nobody is going to score exactly 3 goals per game for 82 games, but you better average close to 3 goals per game if you want to win the Stanley Cup.

Show me a team since the lockout that has won the cup without a top 10 offense. You can continue to ignore the facts, but hoping the Kings are the first team to do it is not a strategy that I want the Kings management to use.

Usually when a team gets more talented and more mature, the results improve. With Murray, they are going the opposite way. Maybe the more talented players are getting tired of the system and aren't as motivated to play "Murray" hockey?

Wasn't there a rumor that Smyth was tired of playing for Murray and that was one of the reasons he asked for a trade? Just used his family as a trump card. Looking at his 11 goals and 22 points in 21 games (9 ES goals), the rumors may have been true. He didn't want to waste his last contract year playing for Murray. He may now get a decent 2-year contact extension based on his play in Edmonton.
Don't use Smyth as your example, his numbers were the same here as everywhere else he's played. He will cool down eventually. Terry Murray wasn't the one making him skate through quicksand and I'm glad he's gone.

And I'm not "ignoring" anything. I see the numbers too. I'm not trying to bury my head in the sand. I agree with alot of the things you say. But where we part ways is the constant nit picking and negative outlook. I'm so excited to see this team take it to the next level and they are closer than you might claim.

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11-25-2011, 06:53 PM
  #278
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I only use Smyth because I was laughed at for saying he was one of few wingers that can produce in a Murray system. I was told that he was finished as a player and was a PP specialist only. Now people say he will fade any day now. Do I expect 82 points from him? No, but 50-60 points is great for a top 6 winger.

Penner is not a fit with Murray. I would rather have Smyth and Gagne. Moreau, Hunter and Fraser wouldn't be in LA and I think the Kings would still be under the cap.

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11-25-2011, 07:02 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
I only use Smyth because I was laughed at for saying he was one of few wingers that can produce in a Murray system. I was told that he was finished as a player and was a PP specialist only. Now people say he will fade any day now. Do I expect 82 points from him? No, but 50-60 points is great for a top 6 winger.

Penner is not a fit with Murray. I would rather have Smyth and Gagne. Moreau, Hunter and Fraser wouldn't be in LA and I think the Kings would still be under the cap.
I'm not sure if you are trying to blame the Penner failure (so far) on Murray. That guy is a bum, pure and simple.

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11-25-2011, 07:14 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by lakingsdrummer View Post
I'm not sure if you are trying to blame the Penner failure (so far) on Murray. That guy is a bum, pure and simple.
Really? A guy who put up 20+ goals (including 29 and 32) in 4 out of his 5 full seasons is not a "bum."

What do you think is more likely? Penner forgetting how to score or Murray ruining yet another offensive player who doesn't fit his system exactly?

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11-25-2011, 07:16 PM
  #281
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Here's an example of the type of impact Penner can have: http://www.coppernblue.com/2009/8/26...-in-support-of

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11-25-2011, 07:26 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
Really? A guy who put up 20+ goals (including 29 and 32) in 4 out of his 5 full seasons is not a "bum."

What do you think is more likely? Penner forgetting how to score or Murray ruining yet another offensive player who doesn't fit his system exactly?
Look, I can agree with alot of you on alot of things, but blaming Penner's failures on anyone but Dustin Penner is not the kind of thing I can sign off on. The guy has great hands but is still out of shape for an NHL player and always seems to be nursing a stubbed toe or cold sore or whatever it is this week. He has no heart, no hustle, no initiative, and has even seemed to have lost his ability to bury a puck. The guy has hit a wall and it has nothing to do with the coach.

C'mon man, give me a break with Penner. The guy is a bum.

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11-25-2011, 07:33 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by lakingsdrummer View Post
Look, I can agree with alot of you on alot of things, but blaming Penner's failures on anyone but Dustin Penner is not the kind of thing I can sign off on. The guy has great hands but is still out of shape for an NHL player and always seems to be nursing a stubbed toe or cold sore or whatever it is this week. He has no heart, no hustle, no initiative, and has even seemed to have lost his ability to bury a puck. The guy has hit a wall and it has nothing to do with the coach.

C'mon man, give me a break with Penner. The guy is a bum.
Penner was on a 28 goal pace when the Kings traded for him last season. He finished the season on a 9 goal pace. Do you really think he lost all his ability on February 28th?

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11-25-2011, 07:40 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
Penner was on a 28 goal pace when the Kings traded for him last season. He finished the season on a 9 goal pace. Do you really think he lost all his ability on February 28th?
I don't care what the reason is. If he can't manage a few points here and there it's on HIM, NOT the coach.

Look, I'll admit, TM is not my favorite coach right now. If he were to be fired I don't think I'd be too upset about it however I don't think it's as important as some of you do. We've won plenty of games with TM behind the bench and, as frustrating as it is sometimes, the team is better now then when he took over.

But blaming the failures of Penner on the coach is probably the most ridculous of all the complaints I read here.

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11-25-2011, 07:55 PM
  #285
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The Kings are better now because of Dean Lombardi.

The Kings goals and points per game have flatlined and are a little worse the past couple of seasons. How is that not on Murray?

You really think that Penner forgot how to score since last February? You don't put anything on how Murray has the team play a perimeter offense? You don't think a coach has any effect on players? Why have a coach then?

There are just too many examples of players that have struggled with Murray and have been just fine elsewhere. It can't all just be a coincidence.

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11-25-2011, 07:56 PM
  #286
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Go Kings!!!!!!

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11-25-2011, 07:58 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by lakingsdrummer View Post
I don't care what the reason is. If he can't manage a few points here and there it's on HIM, NOT the coach.

Look, I'll admit, TM is not my favorite coach right now. If he were to be fired I don't think I'd be too upset about it however I don't think it's as important as some of you do. We've won plenty of games with TM behind the bench and, as frustrating as it is sometimes, the team is better now then when he took over.

But blaming the failures of Penner on the coach is probably the most ridculous of all the complaints I read here.
Then how do you explain his sudden inability to score goals? At least I'm providing some numbers to back me up. You're just using your abstract thoughts and feelings.

And the Kings have actually not improved in the last two seasons. They've regressed since the 2009-2010 season. They're on pace for even less points than last season, during which they finished with less points than the season before. For a team that's supposedly on the upswing, that's not a great sign.

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11-25-2011, 07:59 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Shellz View Post
Go Kings!!!!!!
Where are they going? Kansas City?

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11-25-2011, 08:01 PM
  #289
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Where are they going? Kansas City?
What?

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11-25-2011, 08:19 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
The Kings are better now because of Dean Lombardi.

The Kings goals and points per game have flatlined and are a little worse the past couple of seasons. How is that not on Murray?

You really think that Penner forgot how to score since last February? You don't put anything on how Murray has the team play a perimeter offense? You don't think a coach has any effect on players? Why have a coach then?

There are just too many examples of players that have struggled with Murray and have been just fine elsewhere. It can't all just be a coincidence.
I'm not talking about any other player other than Penner. I know there are some other players who played better on other teams and that's fine but Penner just looks LOST.

How can you blame a personal tailspin of this magnitude on a coach? Maybe he's not SMART ENOUGH to figure out TM's defensive scheme. Has that occured to anyone? I think coaches can certainly have an effect on players but to blame this atrocity on TM is really a stretch.

TM won't allow him to go to the slot anymore? TM forces him to be 3 steps behind every play? TM forces him to over eat and not excercise properly?

C'mon man, this makes no sense.

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11-25-2011, 08:42 PM
  #291
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Just watch where the Kings setup: it's not in the slot. They keep three guys above the circles. Rarely do they attack the middle.

Murray isn't even a terrible coach, put him with a less skilled team and he can grind out wins. But he fails to adapt to a higher skilled roster. He insists that everyone play the same low-risk offense. Keep it to the outside and minimize the threat of turnovers in the middle of the ice. When the bounces go the Kings way, they look like world beaters, but they don't really generate much offense on their own. They rely too much on the other team making mistakes.

The best coaches adapt their style to their players, they don't adapt their players to a rigid style. You don't want to see players like Kopitar, Gagne, Williams, Doughty, Johnson and Richards pushing the play and attacking the middle of the ice? Why doesn't Murray change his approach if the results aren't improving? The Kings of today are much stronger than the Kings of 2 seasons ago. Why are they playing worse?

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11-25-2011, 09:16 PM
  #292
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In regards to Penner, I think some of you are confusing lack of production from lack of effort. Efforts been there. Hopefully the production will soon follow.

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11-25-2011, 09:50 PM
  #293
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Not trying to troll here, and believe me, I know what its like all too well to have players request trades out of my town, but are you guys surprised at all that Smyth is tied with Kopitar in pts? Did you think he was done? He didnt seem to get a lot of love over here, which I can understand due to him requesting a trade, but was he not well liked before that as well?

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11-25-2011, 10:03 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Not trying to troll here, and believe me, I know what its like all too well to have players request trades out of my town, but are you guys surprised at all that Smyth is tied with Kopitar in pts? Did you think he was done? He didnt seem to get a lot of love over here, which I can understand due to him requesting a trade, but was he not well liked before that as well?
First of all, I'm a fan of Smyth, so I'm very happy for him. Yes, majority of our board didn't think much of his play last year but I wasn't one of them. Having said that, I'm still glad that we've traded Smyth and his huge cap hit. I am a bit surprised that he is having such a great year though. I figured he'd have a good bounce back year but not this good.

Heck, I hope Smyth has his career best, he deserves it!

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11-25-2011, 10:06 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Not trying to troll here, and believe me, I know what its like all too well to have players request trades out of my town, but are you guys surprised at all that Smyth is tied with Kopitar in pts? Did you think he was done? He didnt seem to get a lot of love over here, which I can understand due to him requesting a trade, but was he not well liked before that as well?
I can only speak for myself.

I thought he was on the downside of his career (which he is), but I did not think he was done. He was battling back spasms for a good portion of last year, and played excellent in the playoffs. I said all along that he was better than Penner and could out score Gagne.

Not really surprised that he's tied with Kopitar because it's still early in the year and anything can happen. I'll be surprised if he finishes the year tied with Kopitar (which obviously won't happen).

As for him not being liked, you've got to understand that there's always a lot of negativity around here. Even Kopitar was hated for a good portion of last year. Dustin Brown is loathed in general, and some even wanted Doughty traded.

Glad Smyth is doing well in Edmonton.

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11-25-2011, 10:08 PM
  #296
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First of all, I'm a fan of Smyth, so I'm very happy for him. Yes, majority of our board didn't think much of his play last year but I wasn't one of them. Having said that, I'm still glad that we've traded Smyth and his huge cap hit. I am a bit surprised that he is having such a great year though. I figured he'd have a good bounce back year but not this good.

Heck, I hope Smyth has his career best, he deserves it!
Unless Lokti pans out on LW, we'd be better off if we still had Smyth. He's a much better option on the 2nd line than Penner/Parse/Richardson ect.

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11-25-2011, 10:09 PM
  #297
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Other than Richards, what player has come into this system since TM has been the coach and put up as good or better numbers than he did on other teams? Anyone?

The list of the players performing better after leaving seems extraordinarily long by comparison...

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11-25-2011, 10:11 PM
  #298
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Unless Lokti pans out on LW, we'd be better off if we still had Smyth. He's a much better option on the 2nd line than Penner/Parse/Richardson ect.
But if we had Smyth and his contract, we wouldn't have been able to afford Gagne.

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11-25-2011, 10:14 PM
  #299
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11-25-2011, 10:19 PM
  #300
The Black1963
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
Other than Richards, what player has come into this system since TM has been the coach and put up as good or better numbers than he did on other teams? Anyone?

The list of the players performing better after leaving seems extraordinarily long by comparison...
I think Gagne and Kyle Quincey.

But then again, just how many legit scorers have we actually obtained? Not too many.

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