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Old
11-26-2011, 07:19 AM
  #26
Teufelsdreck
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
You my friend I agree with and was going to post the exact same thing. Gauthier should not be allowed to trade a player without Molson agreeing as of now
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Originally Posted by Xia View Post
Should Gauthier make a move now or wait it out a bit, and what move? The better question is, "Should Gauthier be managing this team anymore?" - the answer is no. Bottom line, I don't want Gauthier making any moves, I want Molson to be making moves.

Since when are the Molsons more knowledgeable than Gauthier? What are you jokers trying to do do, have the Habs run by an incarnation of Harold Ballard?


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11-26-2011, 07:22 AM
  #27
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1. Are you happy with the team (incl. coaching staff) why/why not?

No...teams needs new direction

2. Do you think they're going to make the playoffs and if so, how far would they or can they go?

No unless they start scoring on the pp


3. Should Gauthier make a move now or wait it out a bit, and what move?

Now and get someone with size that can drop the gloves make it harder to play against this team.
Your specificity is awesome.

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11-26-2011, 07:24 AM
  #28
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We need an NHL defense.
Do you mean it's as full of holes as Swiss cheese?

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11-26-2011, 07:26 AM
  #29
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The initial slump is over and the team has 'normalized' slightly. Injuries are still a concern with Markov, Kostitsyn, Spacek, White, Campoli, Engqvist, Nash and Gomez injured (in order of importance to the team) but the playoff picture only gets tighter day-by-day and the upcoming games are not getting any easier so we can't sit idly around crying about injuries.

1. Are you happy with the team (incl. coaching staff) why/why not?
2. Do you think they're going to make the playoffs and if so, how far would they or can they go?
3. Should Gauthier make a move now or wait it out a bit, and what move?
It would be ridiculous for Gauthier to make moves with 3-4 guys coming back within a week.

I know you can't use injuries as an excuse, but it does affect the outcome of games, especially with markov and the PP. Yesterday with a good PP weprobably win that game because we kept giving Phillie momentum every time we had a crappy PP. Plus his presence probably helps Weber and Diaz's performance since they don't feel they have to be the ones to make the PP work.

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11-26-2011, 08:18 AM
  #30
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quite a few actually
A few out of how many?? And that was 20 games into the season right?

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11-26-2011, 08:19 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Since when are the Molsons more knowledgeable than Gauthier? What are you jokers trying to do do, have the Habs run by an incarnation of Harold Ballard?
I think the point of saying ''I think the Molsons should be doing moves'' is that they're the ones that can fire Gauthier, and also Martin.

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11-26-2011, 08:35 AM
  #32
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I am not happy with Martin for these reasons:
1. He's sees no value in a 4th line that can provide energy and grit. So ironIc since we've seen so many times how a real 4th line gives us fits.
2. While teaching PK defensive responsibility and situational responsibility, but he's killing his offensive creativity as well.
3. Pleky looks so lost on the PP, it's not working...its been 20+ games...CHANGE IT!

We will make the playoffs 6-8th...but in the right hands this team can win its division.

JM doesnt have the guts to bury Gomez , take the money and some of the bottom pairing defensive vets and put a REAL 4th line together!

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11-26-2011, 08:46 AM
  #33
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Over the past few years Montreal seems to find itself in the same situation. The team is a candidate to make the playoffs but is always a struggle. It seems to come down to the last two or three games of the season.

It has left management/ownership in a conundrum. The team is not bad enough to blow up and not good enough that adding one key piece will put them over the top.

As a result there is a hesitation to make a change at the coaching level. If the move backfires even a little bit, we slip out of a playoff spot. The same goes with the insistence on playing veterans over younger players. The team needs every point it gets and doesn't have the luxury to let these younger players develop.

These are short term decisions that have an impact on the long term development of the team. Every year it is the same story. The courage to make a coaching change or to move out some veterans in return for youth seems to be lacking.

When was the last time we traded a true veteran for young promising talent. We always seem to be adding older talent at the expense of youth. I think this is partly a function of Martin's mindset and partly on the intense pressure to succeed every year in Montreal. The result is we compromise the opportunity to build a team capable of some success over the long term for a wee bit of short term success.

And when you define short term success by squeaking into the playoffs and hoping for a series of upsets, is it really success.

In answer to your questions, I do think the team needs a change behind the bench. I also think management/ownership needs to develop a vision for the future. It's not so much the evaluation of talent that I have a problem with, it is the reasoning behind some of the moves that trouble me.

Yes, we can keep the under-performing vets and hope to squeak into the playoffs once again. If that is what you want, keep Martin, keep the past-their-prime vets and keep those who really don't fit into the model of a successful team.

Or go out on a limb. Take a long hard look at what it takes to succeed on a consistent basis in this league and then identify those players that you want to build the team around. Players that you want here next year, two years from now and three years from now. Then make an effort to assemble a supporting cast to support those players.

All I know is that I am tired of defining success as the occasional winning streak, an 8th place finish, or quoting stats about the superiority of our PK or PP or any other obscure tidbit of information that make us feel better about a mediocre team.

One thing is certain, the current approach hasn't resulted in any dramatic success but just more of the same.

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11-26-2011, 09:05 AM
  #34
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[1. Are you happy with the team (incl. coaching staff) why/why not?

No simply this team is very unbalanced. We have to many smaller guys(below 5'9) on the wing and no real stud at center. We gamble to much going in with this Defense core although they can do a decent job for the most part and no real size there either. I also don't like JM ability to adjust during the action.

2. Do you think they're going to make the playoffs and if so, how far would they or can they go?

This team lacks some scoring majic and no PP production and inconsistency will be there hercalies heels. Maybe with Markov in and healthy this could change but I dough it.

3. Should Gauthier make a move now or wait it out a bit, and what move?

Well he has been active but I feel he picks up spairs parts here and there. We should make a splash with a trade. Target a big center with skills and a big brussing defender.I only have one untouchable and that's Price.

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11-26-2011, 09:12 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by nyhabsfan View Post
I am not happy with Martin for these reasons:
1. He's sees no value in a 4th line that can provide energy and grit. So ironIc since we've seen so many times how a real 4th line gives us fits.
2. While teaching PK defensive responsibility and situational responsibility, but he's killing his offensive creativity as well.
3. Pleky looks so lost on the PP, it's not working...its been 20+ games...CHANGE IT!

We will make the playoffs 6-8th...but in the right hands this team can win its division.

JM doesnt have the guts to bury Gomez , take the money and some of the bottom pairing defensive vets and put a REAL 4th line together!
1-Where has Martin ever said he doesn't want an energetic and gritty 4th line? With everybody healthy the 4th line would be a combination of Nokelainen Moen Darche and White. that brings the two elements you mentionned plus strong defensive play, that's probably THE most important part of a 4th line...you can have grit and energy but if you get scored on twice a game, you are hurting the team, not helping it.

2-Have you watched PK Subban? When has his creativity been killed? Yeah we would definitely be a better team with our big minute d-man(Subban) not being defensively responsible, let's turn him into Byfuglien...brilliant!

3-Plekanec hasn't been on the point all 20 games, he started the season there because of Markov being out, then they took him off. After 3-4 bad games where they went 0 for 11 they put him back 3 weeks ago and they had 3-4 good games. The game last night he was on the point for 3 and then they went to Subban-Weber at the end...PP still was crap. As much as we need markov back and Plekanec up front, Pleky has been our best point man. last night the PP struggled mostly because just about everybody on it was terrible with the puck on their stick, and the ones without the puck were just standing around and not trying to get open for a pass.

I know you are desperately trying to blame JM for all the team's problems, but some of your points make no sense at all. If anything his coaching has helped keep the team afloat with 4 veteran defensemen out of the lineup(plus 2-3 forwards on top of that).

If I was to blame him for anything last night, it would be not calling a timeout in the second period and tearing into his team, it was obvious after 5-6 minutes that the whole team was playing like crap and needed a wake up call, a Tortorella-style tirade.

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Old
11-26-2011, 09:17 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Since when are the Molsons more knowledgeable than Gauthier? What are you jokers trying to do do, have the Habs run by an incarnation of Harold Ballard?
What I meant to say is that I think Molson should fire Gauthier, especially if Markov comes back and either...

A) Gets injured as quick as he did last time.
B) Does absolutely nothing to help the team.

Here's hoping neither of those happen though.

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11-26-2011, 09:25 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
1-Where has Martin ever said he doesn't want an energetic and gritty 4th line? With everybody healthy the 4th line would be a combination of Nokelainen Moen Darche and White. that brings the two elements you mentionned plus strong defensive play, that's probably THE most important part of a 4th line...you can have grit and energy but if you get scored on twice a game, you are hurting the team, not helping it.

2-Have you watched PK Subban? When has his creativity been killed? Yeah we would definitely be a better team with our big minute d-man(Subban) not being defensively responsible, let's turn him into Byfuglien...brilliant!

3-Plekanec hasn't been on the point all 20 games, he started the season there because of Markov being out, then they took him off. After 3-4 bad games where they went 0 for 11 they put him back 3 weeks ago and they had 3-4 good games. The game last night he was on the point for 3 and then they went to Subban-Weber at the end...PP still was crap. As much as we need markov back and Plekanec up front, Pleky has been our best point man. last night the PP struggled mostly because just about everybody on it was terrible with the puck on their stick, and the ones without the puck were just standing around and not trying to get open for a pass.

I know you are desperately trying to blame JM for all the team's problems, but some of your points make no sense at all. If anything his coaching has helped keep the team afloat with 4 veteran defensemen out of the lineup(plus 2-3 forwards on top of that).

If I was to blame him for anything last night, it would be not calling a timeout in the second period and tearing into his team, it was obvious after 5-6 minutes that the whole team was playing like crap and needed a wake up call, a Tortorella-style tirade.
Your post makes it sound like the team has only recently struggled, when in fact, it has struggled to make the playoffs every year since Martin arrived. I think he lacks both vision and creativity. Or maybe he is just stubborn. Often times, he doesn't try solutions that may be a bit daring and sticks to what hasn't been working.

How about Emelin on the PP. He has played there before.... more than Pleks I would say. I am sure everyone here could come up with a dozen reasons why that would be a bad idea. I have only one reason that I would try it... it might work. Could it be worse than what we have now?

I still believe that with Martin at the helm, we will be mediocre... not matter who is on the roster because he will find a way to misuse the talent or squeeze the creativity right out of them.

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Old
11-26-2011, 09:32 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
1-Where has Martin ever said he doesn't want an energetic and gritty 4th line? With everybody healthy the 4th line would be a combination of Nokelainen Moen Darche and White. that brings the two elements you mentionned plus strong defensive play, that's probably THE most important part of a 4th line...you can have grit and energy but if you get scored on twice a game, you are hurting the team, not helping it.

2-Have you watched PK Subban? When has his creativity been killed? Yeah we would definitely be a better team with our big minute d-man(Subban) not being defensively responsible, let's turn him into Byfuglien...brilliant!

3-Plekanec hasn't been on the point all 20 games, he started the season there because of Markov being out, then they took him off. After 3-4 bad games where they went 0 for 11 they put him back 3 weeks ago and they had 3-4 good games. The game last night he was on the point for 3 and then they went to Subban-Weber at the end...PP still was crap. As much as we need markov back and Plekanec up front, Pleky has been our best point man. last night the PP struggled mostly because just about everybody on it was terrible with the puck on their stick, and the ones without the puck were just standing around and not trying to get open for a pass.

I know you are desperately trying to blame JM for all the team's problems, but some of your points make no sense at all. If anything his coaching has helped keep the team afloat with 4 veteran defensemen out of the lineup(plus 2-3 forwards on top of that).

If I was to blame him for anything last night, it would be not calling a timeout in the second period and tearing into his team, it was obvious after 5-6 minutes that the whole team was playing like crap and needed a wake up call, a Tortorella-style tirade.
Sorry, but this is a bunch of bunk!

1. All you have to do is look at JM 's track record. Darche on the PP, Moen in the top 6, clearly the man has no clue how to communicate ROLES to his team, this the confusion. Add his constant changing lines and you have a team with no identity!

2. Players need CONFIDENCE, especially young ones. PK doesnt have the same enthusiasm like year, ya he made some bad decisions but they were more part of his confident attitude... Now he really looks like he's not having a good time and lacks that flare he had...why... Lacks confidence to try and be creative!

3. Both Diaz and Emelin played the point on their previous team, Pleky is MUCH MORE effective on the side wall. The 4 Dmen on the PP units should Subban-Weber and Emelin-Diaz


Last edited by nyhabsfan: 11-26-2011 at 12:37 PM.
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Old
11-26-2011, 10:15 AM
  #39
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He loves that goal line move. Dnace the goal line out front and five hole or far post.

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11-26-2011, 10:21 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
Your post makes it sound like the team has only recently struggled, when in fact, it has struggled to make the playoffs every year since Martin arrived. I think he lacks both vision and creativity. Or maybe he is just stubborn. Often times, he doesn't try solutions that may be a bit daring and sticks to what hasn't been working.

How about Emelin on the PP. He has played there before.... more than Pleks I would say. I am sure everyone here could come up with a dozen reasons why that would be a bad idea. I have only one reason that I would try it... it might work. Could it be worse than what we have now?

I still believe that with Martin at the helm, we will be mediocre... not matter who is on the roster because he will find a way to misuse the talent or squeeze the creativity right out of them.
In the two 1/4 years JM has been here his top player(Markov) has played a grand total of about 50 games out of 180. That limits a lot of your decisions. People want a more offensive team, well in order to do taht you need a healthy Markov. 1-because it does wonders for the PP and transition game. and 2-because your forwards don't have to cheat defensively as much if you have a solid, veteran defense.

I think trying Emolin in the point is not a bad idea.

When you don't have all your "bullets" and are missing 4-5 or 6 regulars, you have no choice but to tighten up defensively because you won't win too many games playing run and gun and leaving your 3 or 4 rookies on defense exposed. Pittsburgh had to do it minus Crosby and Malkin, TB did it minus Ohlund and a couple others on defense. Does it mean Blysma iand Boucher are misusing talent or squeezing the creativity out of them?

JM coached Ottawa when they had a highly skilled lineup and they were among the highest scoring teams in the NHL, so your theory makes no sense. I'm sure JM would rather win 5-2 than 2-1 if he could. But it's pretty hard to do when your short your 4 most experienced d-men.

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11-26-2011, 10:22 AM
  #41
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1. Are you happy with the team (incl. coaching staff) why/why not?
Currently, so-so. While I think the coaching could be doing a better job, injuries are playing a huge factor in all of this. The fact that the team is still at .500 after a quarter of the way speaks volumes, at least to me.

2. Do you think they're going to make the playoffs and if so, how far would they or can they go?
With a healthy line-up, they can make the playoffs. With bodies coming back near December, especially the likes of Markov, yes I think the Habs can make the playoffs. How far they go is up in the air, really. We never know which teams will magically go on a Cinderella run. Could be the Habs or could be the team the Habs face in the first round. Too hard to predict.

3. Should Gauthier make a move now or wait it out a bit, and what move?
Wait it out. Guys are coming back in less than a month. Re-evaluate the situation once your line-up is a little more healthy.

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11-26-2011, 10:36 AM
  #42
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Sorry, but this is a bunch of bunk!

1. All you have to do is look at JM 's track record. Darche on the PP, Moen in the top 6, clearly the man has no clue how to communicate ROLES to his team, this the confusion. Add his constant changing lines and you have a team with no identity!

2. Players need CONFIDENCE, especially young ones. PK was do enthusiastic last year, ya he made some bad decisions but they were more part of his confident attitude... Now he really looks like he's not having a good time and lacks that flare he had...why... Lacks confidence to try and be creative!

3. Both Diaz and Emelin played the point on their previous team, Pleky is MUCH MORE effective on the side wall. The 4 Dmen on the PP units should Subban-Weber and Emelin-Diaz
1-You can have ROLES all you want, but Emelin Weber and Diaz's roles are to be #5-6-7 d-men, but because of injuries they are forced to be #3-4-6 or whatever on a lot of nights.

Moen's role is to be 3rd or 4th line but with Cammy AK etc out you have no choice but to move somebody up. I'm pretty sure Moen has been productive in that role...7 goals in 20 or so games playing an average of 15 minutes a game. I agree that Darche shouldn't be a regular on the PP, but in the past he contributed by doing a good job of screening the goalie. How many minutes a game does Darche get on the PP? I doubt it's much so you are nitpicking here.

2-Not sure where you get that PK lacks the confidence to be creative, even last night when the team as a whole played like Garbage, he had 3-4 rushes or spots where he jumped into the offensize zone with the puck. Giving him the green light to go freestyle on the ice is a recipe for disaster, not the best way to get the most out of a guy's talent. PK plays best when he tones down the creativity a bit and plays within the team concept like the 2nd half last year. I want the 2nd half Subban from last year not our version of Byfuglien who generates as many chances for us as he does for the other team.

3-all 3 young guys(Diaz Subban and weber) have had struggles on the point, that's why on two occasions they have put Plekanec on the point. Your post makes it sound like they haven't gotten opprtunities when all 3 have been on the PP pretty much all year. Emelin I agree should get a shot, but I'm sure the language thing makes it hard to have him there early on. Emelin has made solid and steady progress from day 1 so it's hard to argue how they have handled him, getting him to focus on defense first.

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11-26-2011, 11:09 AM
  #43
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Markov:

The General (remember that??) typically has averaged (or projected to average) 50 assists a season on the blue line.

Which other D man in Montreal can do that?

At 5.75 million... it is a bargain for today's NHL.

Everyone must be patient....

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11-26-2011, 11:25 AM
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Markov:

The General (remember that??) typically has averaged (or projected to average) 50 assists a season on the blue line.

Which other D man in Montreal can do that?

At 5.75 million... it is a bargain for today's NHL.

Everyone must be patient....
... a bargain if he can return to form after missing almost two years and with three major surgeries. Time will tell.

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11-26-2011, 11:40 AM
  #45
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1. Are you happy with the team (incl. coaching staff) why/why not?
Currently, so-so. While I think the coaching could be doing a better job, injuries are playing a huge factor in all of this. The fact that the team is still at .500 after a quarter of the way speaks volumes, at least to me.

2. Do you think they're going to make the playoffs and if so, how far would they or can they go?
With a healthy line-up, they can make the playoffs. With bodies coming back near December, especially the likes of Markov, yes I think the Habs can make the playoffs. How far they go is up in the air, really. We never know which teams will magically go on a Cinderella run. Could be the Habs or could be the team the Habs face in the first round. Too hard to predict.

3. Should Gauthier make a move now or wait it out a bit, and what move?
Wait it out. Guys are coming back in less than a month. Re-evaluate the situation once your line-up is a little more healthy.

I heart you. As much as fans are clamoring for a coaching change a new coach wouldn't be able to push a decimated team to the top. At this point we can only be patient and wait for the injured to come back. Sure, the staff makes some questionable decisions but the team isn't making them look better.

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11-26-2011, 12:21 PM
  #46
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I think the point of saying ''I think the Molsons should be doing moves'' is that they're the ones that can fire Gauthier, and also Martin.
I think you and I have a different slant on those two fan posts. Sure, the Molsons can fire Martin and Gauthier but their replacements could be far worse. I think that Martin and Gauthier have done a creditable job with what they inherited from Gainey. Martin took them to the ECF in 2010 and came closer than any other opponent to ousting the Bruins in 2011. Gauthier correctly traded Halak rather than Price, signed Cole, re-signed Plekanec, Kostitsyn, and Gorges, and actively recruited Emelin and Diaz. His trade for Nokelainen was helpful. The only stable cleansing he hasn't done is making Gomez disappear. It remains to be seen whether signing Markov while not paying the high price for Wisniewski was wise. Judging from the looks of the PP, I can't think of anyone who could restore a normal heart rhythm better than Markov. It's evident that too much responsibility has been placed on Subban, Weber, and Diaz, and at times the execution of the PP reminds me of ventricular fibrillation.

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11-26-2011, 12:24 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I think you and I have a different slant on those two fan posts. Sure, the Molsons can fire Martin and Gauthier but their replacements could be far worse. I think that Martin and Gauthier have done a creditable job with what they inherited from Gainey. Martin took them to the ECF in 2010 and came closer than any other opponent to ousting the Bruins in 2011. Gauthier correctly traded Halak rather than Price, signed Cole, re-signed Plekanec, Kostitsyn, and Gorges, and actively recruited Emelin and Diaz. His trade for Nokelainen was helpful. The only stable cleansing he hasn't done is making Gomez disappear. It remains to be seen whether signing Markov while not paying the high price for Wisniewski was wise. Judging from the looks of the PP, I can't of anyone who could restore a normal heart rhythm better than Markov. It's evident that too much responsibility has been placed on Subban, Weber, and Diaz, and at times the execution of the PP reminds me of ventricular fibrillation.
Just thinking that Serge Savard and Jacques Demers got CANNED for Houle and Tremblay sends cold shivers down my spine.

Brrrrrrrrrrrr..........

ps. Apologies for going off topic.

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11-26-2011, 12:30 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
for how long ?
how many games of a losing team (not a bubble team or a 10/11th pos team, a really bad one) will you watch ?
I've watched pretty much every possible game I could watch since the age of 4-5 (I'm 22 now). Whether we end up last, or first, I personally will keep on watching, because I grew up a Habs fan. Plus, there are benefits in finishing among the worst teams. Benefits that can outweigh the short-term struggles (whether they last a year or three).

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11-26-2011, 12:39 PM
  #49
Born in 1909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhysicX View Post
I've watched pretty much every possible game I could watch since the age of 4-5 (I'm 22 now). Whether we end up last, or first, I personally will keep on watching, because I grew up a Habs fan. Plus, there are benefits in finishing among the worst teams. Benefits that can outweigh the short-term struggles (whether they last a year or three).
Agreed.

Hab hockey is pretty much the best thing on TV...

It is obviously much more fun when the team is competitive... but there are always reasons to watch.

Will Eller emerge as a top 6 talent?
Can Weber learn to bury his PP shots more consistently?
Will Emelin dish out some crazy brutal hits?
Can PK pull off a spectacular game-winning play?
etc. etc.

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11-26-2011, 12:46 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
1. Are you happy with the team (incl. coaching staff) why/why not?
2. Do you think they're going to make the playoffs and if so, how far would they or can they go?
3. Should Gauthier make a move now or wait it out a bit, and what move?
Amazing how answers reflect the last game we played. Note to self: resist knee-jerk reactions, resist knee-jerk reactions...

1. As everyone says, injuries are the big wildcard. Have we seen the real team yet, or has the car been driving on two spare tires? Despite our so-so record, I like JM and think his system works for the roster we have. However, it would be nice to actually see the roster we have.

2. Ask me in a month if we'll make the playoffs. It's really way too early to assess any team that's up or down by a handful of points.

3. Knee-jerk moves are the worst of all. There's no reason to make a move seeing as so many of our injured players are coming back. However, there's nothing wrong with pouncing on an opportunity if another team is in knee-jerk mode and wants to trade.

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