HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Buffalo Sabres
Notices

Enroth in net .... Can he? Will he? Is he?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-27-2011, 01:19 PM
  #76
jflory81
Irken Elite
 
jflory81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 19,873
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to jflory81
Quote:
Originally Posted by kpatterson14206 View Post
You severally overrate the quality of the other 29 teams' goal tending if you don't believe Enroth can be a #1 netminder in this league.

He's played on the same team as Ryan Miller his whole career and has just been flat out better than him. Will this last? Probably not. But even if he comes down a bit, he's still a very good NHL goalie capable of starting for many teams.
No. Just no. His save % since Miller went down is sub .900. Miller was clearly the better of the two goalies last year. This is a prime example of taking one hot streak (and a couple of big games amid some bad ones last year) and vastly overstating the goalie's ability.

jflory81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 01:37 PM
  #77
Zip15
Registered User
 
Zip15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 16,609
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by kpatterson14206 View Post
You severally overrate the quality of the other 29 teams' goal tending if you don't believe Enroth can be a #1 netminder in this league.

He's played on the same team as Ryan Miller his whole career and has just been flat out better than him. Will this last? Probably not. But even if he comes down a bit, he's still a very good NHL goalie capable of starting for many teams.
I'd say this arguable at best if it wasn't just flat out wrong. Enroth has a .897 SV% since Miller got injured this year. If you include the time he was the starter last season after Miller got injured in March, his SV% as a starter is a pedestrian .902 SV%. Enroth hasn't shown the ability to carry the load as a starter when the opponent is preparing for him and only him.

Zip15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 07:41 PM
  #78
Jame
Dream '16
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Country: Scotland
Posts: 32,404
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Jame
Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
No. Just no. His save % since Miller went down is sub .900. Miller was clearly the better of the two goalies last year. This is a prime example of taking one hot streak (and a couple of big games amid some bad ones last year) and vastly overstating the goalie's ability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I'd say this arguable at best if it wasn't just flat out wrong. Enroth has a .897 SV% since Miller got injured this year. If you include the time he was the starter last season after Miller got injured in March, his SV% as a starter is a pedestrian .902 SV%. Enroth hasn't shown the ability to carry the load as a starter when the opponent is preparing for him and only him.
You Miller defenders are funny. Always picking and choosing your stats...

This year... on This team

Enroth .925 2.29
Miller .909 2.86

And Enroth has played on a more depleted team and faced more shots per game.

It's not about who is better... that's the myth. Goaltender performance is relative to the team around them.

Jame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 08:20 PM
  #79
Zip15
Registered User
 
Zip15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 16,609
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
You Miller defenders are funny. Always picking and choosing your stats...

This year... on This team

Enroth .925 2.29
Miller .909 2.86

And Enroth has played on a more depleted team and faced more shots per game.

It's not about who is better... that's the myth. Goaltender performance is relative to the team around them.
I think Enroth's stats when he's the undisputed #1 while Miller is injured are very relevant, especially when evaluating whether he's capable of being The Guy. The night-in, night-out grind of an NHL starter is far different than the handpicked, cushy spot starts that the backup often receives. Enroth's numbers since Miller went down are worse than pedestrian (and, in fact, are worse than Miller's were when he was the healthy #1).

Zip15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 08:31 PM
  #80
ZZamboni
Puttin' on the Foil
 
ZZamboni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Buffalo, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 9,648
vCash: 500
Why does every goalie thread have to evolve into a Miller vs. Enroth one?

Go to the goalie controversy thread .... AGAIN .... for that junk... Please

I just wanted this little thread about Enroth's play, by itself, evaluating, comparing Enroth against Enroth, without comparing it to Miller, like KPatterson is trying to do. But I guess if there's enough people want to convert this to ANOTHER controversy thread, there's little I can do

Thanks

ZZamboni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 08:37 PM
  #81
Jame
Dream '16
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Country: Scotland
Posts: 32,404
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Jame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I think Enroth's stats when he's the undisputed #1 while Miller is injured are very relevant, especially when evaluating whether he's capable of being The Guy. The night-in, night-out grind of an NHL starter is far different than the handpicked, cushy spot starts that the backup often receives. Enroth's numbers since Miller went down are worse than pedestrian (and, in fact, are worse than Miller's were when he was the healthy #1).
Last year when Enroth had a string of 6 starts... it was too small a sample to judge him on...

This year when Enroth has a string of 7 starts... it is all of the sudden a sample worth using in argument

You guys crack me up with you obvious bias...

Jame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 08:53 PM
  #82
ZZamboni
Puttin' on the Foil
 
ZZamboni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Buffalo, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 9,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
You guys crack me up with you obvious bias...
Mirror Jame, mirror



This is not a challenge or a set up for a gotcha moment. It is seriously honestly a question..... How has Enroth looked over each game he's played? Then, how has he played overall since Millers been down? I've given my opinion, in this thread after almost every game since he's been the #1. I'd like yours, without a Miller mention at all.

ZZamboni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 08:55 PM
  #83
Jame
Dream '16
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Country: Scotland
Posts: 32,404
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Jame
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
Mirror Jame, mirror



This is not a challenge or a set up for a gotcha moment. It is seriously honestly a question..... How has Enroth looked over each game he's played? Then, how has he played overall since Millers been down? I've given my opinion, in this thread after almost every game since he's been the #1. I'd like yours, without a Miller mention at all.
Like Miller over most of his career.
Great, good, bad, good, bad, great...

or like most goalies in the NHL...

Jame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 08:59 PM
  #84
SackTastic
Embrace The Suck
 
SackTastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: United States
Posts: 4,918
vCash: 500
I don't know why you guys bother to debate Jame on this. His position is clear; Any bar league goalie can perform in the NHL with the right team around him.

I completely disagree with this, but his position is consistant. It's pointless to debate which goaltender is better with someone who thinks they all are unimportant pieces.

SackTastic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 09:00 PM
  #85
ZZamboni
Puttin' on the Foil
 
ZZamboni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Buffalo, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 9,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Like Miller over most of his career.
Great, good, bad, good, bad, great...

or like most goalies in the NHL...
So you basically gave me the middle finger and mentioned Miller anyway. Thanks for that.

ZZamboni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 09:10 PM
  #86
Jame
Dream '16
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Country: Scotland
Posts: 32,404
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Jame
Terrible-Bad-Average-Good-Great

Was - Good
Cbj - Terrible
Bos - Good
Pho - Average
Car - Great
Njd - Terrible (didn't see the game)
Mon - Great
---
Bos - Bad (Substituting)
Ott - Great
Ott - Good
Cal - Good
Phi - Good (substituting)
Cbj - Good
Pit - Great

Jame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 09:14 PM
  #87
aceface33
Registered User
 
aceface33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Herkimer, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 7,983
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Terrible-Bad-Average-Good-Great

Was - Good
Cbj - Terrible
Bos - Good
Pho - Average
Car - Great
Njd - Terrible (didn't see the game)
Mon - Great
---
Bos - Bad (Substituting)
Ott - Great
Ott - Good
Cal - Good
Phi - Good (substituting)
Cbj - Good
Pit - Great
Ok now do miller.

aceface33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 09:16 PM
  #88
ZZamboni
Puttin' on the Foil
 
ZZamboni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Buffalo, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 9,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by aceface33 View Post
Ok now do miller.
No please dont. Ace in case you missed it the thread title is about Enroth. Wow.

ZZamboni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 09:18 PM
  #89
Jame
Dream '16
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Country: Scotland
Posts: 32,404
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Jame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
I don't know why you guys bother to debate Jame on this. His position is clear; Any bar league goalie can perform in the NHL with the right team around him.

I completely disagree with this, but his position is consistant. It's pointless to debate which goaltender is better with someone who thinks they all are unimportant pieces.
obviously not clear to you

Jame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 09:20 PM
  #90
aceface33
Registered User
 
aceface33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Herkimer, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 7,983
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
No please dont. Ace in case you missed it the thread title is about Enroth. Wow.
No I really want to see it and compare the two.

Put it in the GCT.

aceface33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 09:27 PM
  #91
Zip15
Registered User
 
Zip15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 16,609
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Last year when Enroth had a string of 6 starts... it was too small a sample to judge him on...

This year when Enroth has a string of 7 starts... it is all of the sudden a sample worth using in argument

You guys crack me up with you obvious bias...
I was responding to kpatterson's ridiculous statement that Enroth is "clearly" a #1 goaltender in this league, and that he's been "flat out better" than Miller since his recall, which presumably dated back to last season.

If you've paid any attention to what I've said about Enroth since the beginning of this ridiculous "debate," it's that Enroth's sample size isn't big enough to conclude anything. With that said, even in a small sample size, he's yet to show he's capable of performing well during the night-in, night-out ground that is the life of a NHL starter. Of course there's time to change that and he's still young, but that's what the small sample size shows so far.

Zip15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 09:30 PM
  #92
SackTastic
Embrace The Suck
 
SackTastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country: United States
Posts: 4,918
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
obviously not clear to you
Slight exaggeration, but my point is still valid. In your view, goaltenders on NHL teams are interchangeable parts. Which is why I always find it hilarious when you advocate for one over another.

SackTastic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 10:42 PM
  #93
Jame
Dream '16
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Country: Scotland
Posts: 32,404
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Jame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Slight exaggeration, but my point is still valid. In your view, goaltenders on NHL teams are interchangeable parts. Which is why I always find it hilarious when you advocate for one over another.
yea slight

Jame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 11:08 PM
  #94
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 31,389
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Like Miller over most of his career.
Great, good, bad, good, bad, great...

or like most goalies in the NHL
...
Or like most players in the NHL. This idea you have that this is unique to goalies is quite absurd.

I can think of very few players, if any, at any position, that play good to great hockey every night of an entire NHL season. Or in other words play at the top of their game every night. It just doesn't happen.

The reality is every player in the NHL, regardless of postion, has bad games and even bad weeks or months. The difference with a goalie is there is no where to hide for him when its happening. When he messes up its in the net.

joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 11:21 PM
  #95
Jame
Dream '16
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Country: Scotland
Posts: 32,404
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Jame
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Or like most players in the NHL. This idea you have that this is unique to goalies is quite absurd.

I can think of very few players, if any, at any position, that play good to great hockey every night of an entire NHL season. It just doesn't happen. Last season Vanek was brutal many nights of the first half of the year and ended that half with 7 straight scoreless games He hwas awesome in the 2nd gahlf

The reality is every player in the NHL, regardless of postion, has bad games and even bad weeks or months. The difference with a goalie is there is no where to hide for him when its happening. When he messes up its in the net.

the best forwards and defensemen are the best year in and year out (for the most part). You can see it statistically looking at the top scorers, top defenders, etc.

Goalies, on the other hand, are fickle. The top performers change drastically each year.

A goalies performance is far far far more dependant on the team around him, then any other position player.

you can call it a pet theory... but it's a fact.

i dont care about discussing goalies on a game to game basis... someone asked me what i thought about Enroth on a game to game basis, and i obliged.

I'd like someone to explain how Ryan Miller is better then any of the following:
Luongo
Kipper
Thomas
Fleury
Price
Lehtonen
Niemi
Khabibulin
Rinne
Thomas
Bryzgalov
Vokoun
Quick
Lundqvist
Backstrom
Howard
Smith
Crawford
Theodore
Ward
...add Miller's name in there and you have 20+ starting goaltenders who are rather interchangeable. The better the team around them, generally... the better they will perform.

And that's not even considering numerous younger guys who are showing the ability to be starters in this league

Jame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2011, 11:52 PM
  #96
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 31,389
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by werpudel View Post
if I remember correctly, Miller was lit up quite a bit in his first stints with the sabres. he really only wrestled that no. 1-positon from marty after the lockout. so I'd say that enroth right now is ahead in his development compared to miller at this stage in his career. some up and downs are just to be expected from enroth. but he showed last season over a prolongued span of time that he is able to play as a no.1-goalie.

but, hey, everything can happen in the next yaears
Not really. Enroth has had the benefit of absolutely no competition in the system to be where he is right now.

Miller had a much tougher battle to get on the roster as one of the two goalies let alone win the starters job. We had two other young goalies that were both first rounders that had been very good in the AHL.

1) Biron who was drafted in 1995 (1st rd 16th overall)
- 98-99 he won the Bastien award for best AHL goalie and the Hap Holmes award (the AHL version of the Jennings)
- he took over as the starter in 01-02

2) Noronen was drafted in 1997 (1st rd/21st overall)
-was AHL rookie of the year in 99-00
-won the Hap Holmes award in 00-01

3) Miller was drafted in 1999 (5th rd/138th overall).
-spent 3 years at Mich St. and won the Hobey Baker in 00-01
-won the Bastien in 04-05 as the best goalie in AHL (he actually had better numbers the year before).


Those were the three goalies battling for the starting and backup jobs right before and after the lockout. We all remember the epic GCT. All three had far better pedigress than Enroth has now.

Enroth is our backup because he is NHL ready and we have no one else. Miller was the starter in 05-06 because he beat out Marty and Mika for that spot.

Comparing their development is comparing apples to oranges.


Last edited by joshjull: 11-28-2011 at 12:06 AM.
joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2011, 01:10 AM
  #97
Corto
Faceless Man
 
Corto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Braavos
Country: Croatia
Posts: 12,328
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post

I'd like someone to explain how Ryan Miller is better then any of the following:
Luongo
Kipper
Thomas
Fleury
Price
Lehtonen
Niemi
Khabibulin
Rinne
Thomas

Bryzgalov
Vokoun
Quick
Lundqvist
Backstrom
Howard
Smith
Crawford
Theodore
Ward
Why explain when you're gonna pull some random number, put it into a context that suits you and gonna say Miller average, etc.

But really, mentioning guys like Theodore, Smith, Niemi, Crawford, even Lehtonen... Sorta shows bias against Miller.


Last edited by Corto: 11-28-2011 at 01:32 AM.
Corto is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2011, 07:12 AM
  #98
Jame
Dream '16
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Country: Scotland
Posts: 32,404
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Jame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corto View Post
Why explain when you're gonna pull some random number, put it into a context that suits you and gonna say Miller average, etc.

But really, mentioning guys like Theodore, Smith, Niemi, Crawford, even Lehtonen... Sorta shows bias against Miller.
Miller 2.58 .914
Lehtonen 2.76 .914
Theodore 2.68 .909 VEZINA
Niemi 2.36 .916 CUP
Smith 2.66 .909
Crawford 2.44 .913

same ball park. each goalie has much different circumstances, and all are at different stages of their careers.

all are interchangeable

Jame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2011, 07:20 AM
  #99
vcv
Moderator
Deal with it
 
vcv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Williamsville, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 13,221
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to vcv
Hey guys....

ENROTH

vcv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2011, 07:40 AM
  #100
MGIII
Legendary
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 774
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by volatile View Post
Hey guys....

ENROTH
He's a pretty swell guy.

MGIII is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:31 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.