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Gm #23 Kings v. Blackhawks, 11/26/11 - Post Game LOSS, Thoughts & Tidbits

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Old
11-28-2011, 02:07 PM
  #201
The Black1963
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
So I assume the answer to the question is yes, you would bring Dean and Terry back for years 7 and 5 even if the Kings miss the playoffs.

Good to know

Insanity -Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
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Lol. Sorry dude, but I didn't really read the entire post. Your posts are generally extreme and loaded with anger and frustration.

In any case, I can't see TM coming back next season unless we get past a round or two in the playoffs.

As for DL, I probably give him more slack than TM but I don't know about 5 or 7 years. He's done a great job of rebuilding our team but eventually, we need to win the cup.

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11-28-2011, 02:10 PM
  #202
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Better question is, how do you call yourself a loyal kings fan?

A bandwagon fan, yeah, THAT I can believe but a loyal fan who will support the kings and kings players through thick and thin, that isn't you. If all you do is criticize and complaint when a player or team is doing poorly, how's that a loyal fan?

The trouble with you and guys like you are that you guys don't know what it's like to be patient. In this day and age of fantasy leagues and smartphones, you're use to instant gratification. Well guess what, that's not how real world works, and that isn't how winning teams are built.

And don't worry about guys not producing and making money. It's not your money, don't sweat it!
Don't tell me who I am. Calling out a guy for playing half-assed does not make one a bandwagon fan. If it did, then there are no "true fans" in the entire league except for you and the player's mothers. When you care a lot about a team, you call it like you see it because you want to see them do well. If somebody makes a terrible decision, like EM did, you call them on it. The same way you get really happy when somebody makes a fantastic play, like Westgarth did on his goal. Not to mention that LA has no real bandwagon fans since we've never won anything. All of those people left in 2007.

As for being patient, this team has been around since 1967. I think LA fans have been patient. So when we finally get a solid roster, it's disappointing to see them not live up to their potential based on problems that seem fixable. How can you not grasp that?

You follow this team like you're everybody's mother and you constantly chastise people on this board when you disagree with what they are saying. You position and perspective on this sport is truly bizarre. I'm still shocked at how you justified EM's Dallas penalty.

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11-28-2011, 02:14 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Those who remain will be champions!

Well, not National Champions, eh maybe not Rose Bowl Champions. Aren't those the games that count?
Coming from an ASU alum? Really? Want to compare football programs? Maybe other sports, keep shaving those points.

I will ask you the same question, what if the Kings miss the playoffs this season, should Dean and Terry be given years 7 and 5?


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11-28-2011, 02:15 PM
  #204
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Lombardi definitely. Murray no.

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11-28-2011, 02:24 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by DocWest View Post
Don't tell me who I am. Calling out a guy for playing half-assed does not make one a bandwagon fan. If it did, then there are no "true fans" in the entire league except for you and the player's mothers. When you care a lot about a team, you call it like you see it because you want to see them do well. If somebody makes a terrible decision, like EM did, you call them on it. The same way you get really happy when somebody makes a fantastic play, like Westgarth did on his goal. Not to mention that LA has no real bandwagon fans since we've never won anything. All of those people left in 2007.

As for being patient, this team has been around since 1967. I think LA fans have been patient. So when we finally get a solid roster, it's disappointing to see them not live up to their potential based on problems that seem fixable. How can you not grasp that?

You follow this team like you're everybody's mother and you constantly chastise people on this board when you disagree with what they are saying. You position and perspective on this sport is truly bizarre. I'm still shocked at how you justified EM's Dallas penalty.
I think that's where you're confused. The players are putting in the effort. It's just that they're not getting the results. So, the effort is there and there's no half-ass about the efforts. Hopefully, the results will soon follow.

As for me being a mom, well, thank you I guess since I'm old enough to be most of the players parent. The way I see myself is that I think of myself as an extension of the team. So, if a player makes a mistake, do you think that his teammates point the finger and convey how he blew the game? No, of course not. And that is how I like to treat our players. If you want to continue to point finger and play the blame game, hey, go ahead. I choose to take the high road and support the players while they're down.

I don't know if you've ever played any organized sport but if you did, and you were the cause of a loss, would you want your teammates to give you the cold shoulder and point the finger at you or would you prefer that your teammates pat you on the back and give you support? I obviously choose the latter.

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11-28-2011, 02:27 PM
  #206
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A bandwagon fan, yeah, THAT I can believe but a loyal fan who will support the kings and kings players through thick and thin, that isn't you. If all you do is criticize and complaint when a player or team is doing poorly, how's that a loyal fan?
It's called being a sports fan. We can enjoy it how we see fit. Whether that be discussing/calling players and coaches out or cheering for them when they do well. I hate to be the one to deliver the memo, but that's what many sports fans do. Not everyone is going to patiently accept everything the team does when it comes to discussions (if you do, power to you).

I effin lol at grown men making "I'm a better fan than you!" or "I've been a fan longer than you"-type comments. Similar to some junior high kid talking about some band.

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11-28-2011, 02:39 PM
  #207
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Let's be real here...despite his flaws, Lombardi has positioned this team at its highest since the Gretzky years.
4th in the division, 10th in the conference. If that's success, I don't want to know what failure is.


and "positioned" = ZERO if no more wins are attached.

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11-28-2011, 02:45 PM
  #208
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4th in the division, 10th in the conference. If that's success, I don't want to know what failure is.


and "positioned" = ZERO if no more wins are attached.
Clearly failure is building an offense first team and then mortgaging your future to win a Stanley Cup. Happy we never did that.

Dean is building this the right way. Who cares if we are 10th in the conference and 25th in scoring a quarter of the way through year 6, have a little patience.

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11-28-2011, 03:27 PM
  #209
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I think that's where you're confused. The players are putting in the effort. It's just that they're not getting the results. So, the effort is there and there's no half-ass about the efforts. Hopefully, the results will soon follow.

As for me being a mom, well, thank you I guess since I'm old enough to be most of the players parent. The way I see myself is that I think of myself as an extension of the team. So, if a player makes a mistake, do you think that his teammates point the finger and convey how he blew the game? No, of course not. And that is how I like to treat our players. If you want to continue to point finger and play the blame game, hey, go ahead. I choose to take the high road and support the players while they're down.

I don't know if you've ever played any organized sport but if you did, and you were the cause of a loss, would you want your teammates to give you the cold shoulder and point the finger at you or would you prefer that your teammates pat you on the back and give you support? I obviously choose the latter.
Conversely, that's where you may be confused. You're not on the team and your words on here will never reach them. You don't need to coddle them or makes excuses for their mistakes. They are grown men and they don't need to be protected to that degree.

Also, there is a gigantic difference between calling out a guy like EM who takes selfish penalties and a guy like Richardson who works his ass off every damn game. I love Richardson and never hate on him because the dude tries really hard no matter what. He plays just as hard when we have no chance at winning as he does when we have the lead. But when EM takes a penalty that's not a "compete penalty" with less than two minutes left in a divisional game when we are winning, it's ridiculous. Now if that was EM's only stupid penalty then I don't think people would be so hard on him. But it's not, the dude takes them all the time.

If you want to talk about emotions, how do you think Westgarth felt when he lost his chance at the game winning goal largely in part to the bad position that EM put the rest of his team in? I never said I want the team to turn on people, but I find it annoying when you try to stop us from talking about reality. I am not one of those who gets off when the team loses and only shows up to complain. I come here to discuss and read about this team because they have my full support no matter what. If that means talking about a player who is kicking ass, great. But I also want to talk about those who are hurting us. Right now, EM is hurting this team. Hopefully what happened in Dallas will make him play smarter hockey from here on out. That's something that I'm sure we both agree on.

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11-28-2011, 04:53 PM
  #210
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Coming from an ASU alum? Really? Want to compare football programs? Maybe other sports, keep shaving those points.

I will ask you the same question, what if the Kings miss the playoffs this season, should Dean and Terry be given years 7 and 5?
Dean yes, Terry no.

I would compare baseball programs where ASU scores runs the way some Big 10, err 12 football teams score touchdowns.

You go on and on about Big Blue and how nothing but results matter, but the fact is you put a coach that never delivered the big one and rarely won in the Rose Bowl on a pedestal. Bo was a fine coach, but I find the double standard on your part rather revealing.

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11-28-2011, 06:24 PM
  #211
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You go on and on about Big Blue and how nothing but results matter, but the fact is you put a coach that never delivered the big one and rarely won in the Rose Bowl on a pedestal. Bo was a fine coach, but I find the double standard on your part rather revealing.
Your the one who always brings it up. But whatever, their goal was always to win the Big Ten, because it was all they could control. Obviously it would have been nice had he won a NC, but to compare Bo Schembechler to Dean Lombardi is insulting.

Bo Schembechler won a Big Ten championship his first season and to steal a line from Mr. Lombardi, totally changed the "culture" in one season. We are in season six and still don't have that winners culture you love to talk about. Hell, we can't even score goals.

When is this team going to be a serious contender?

When are we going to have a Top 10 offense?

What has Lombardi done to warrant a 3rd coach?

Why has Lombardi in 13 seasons as a GM, under four different coaches only had 2 seasons in the top half of the NHL in offense?

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11-28-2011, 06:49 PM
  #212
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Clearly failure is building an offense first team and then mortgaging your future to win a Stanley Cup. Happy we never did that.

Dean is building this the right way. Who cares if we are 10th in the conference and 25th in scoring a quarter of the way through year 6, have a little patience.
What are you looking for people to say? You want everyone to scream about what a loser DL and TM are? I mean reall, most people are on your side at this point but you still have this "us vs them" mentality.

Like I've asked you, PSP and everyone else that loves to be critical, if the answers are so obvious, what are they? By all means, please tell us what the Kings need to do. I think most people acknowledge the coaches shortcomings. You'd be hard pressed to think he is anything about a dimwit given your comments but the fact is both TM and DL know way more about hockey than you or anyone on this message board which why they have a job doing it and you, along with the rest of us, waste our time discussing it.

You sit there sniping away from your keyboard regurgitating the same diatribe over and over as if you are so much brighter than the rest of us.

I thought in the summertime, you thought DL had assembled a fairly talented squad. Now you are criticizing the players saying they only know how to play TM/DL hockey and this is what it is. You paint some doom and gloom picture as if this is as good as it gets. Well, I personally refuse to believe that the players that are on this team all of sudden forgot how to play hockey. I think coaching issues are pretty evident as they have been for about a year now but you speak as if this organization is in the same situation personnel-wise as they were in 2005/2006 and even PSP wouldn't agree with you on that.

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11-28-2011, 07:12 PM
  #213
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What are you looking for people to say? You want everyone to scream about what a loser DL and TM are? I mean reall, most people are on your side at this point but you still have this "us vs them" mentality.

Like I've asked you, PSP and everyone else that loves to be critical, if the answers are so obvious, what are they?
The first comment was directed at a few of my friends on this board who were making fun of Chicago the summer after they won the Cup saying they had mortgaged their future for a championship, I strongly disagreed by saying any team that still has Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook and Bolland are still a seriously good team.

I have long been an advocate of exciting, offensive style hockey like Chicago plays. I think it's good for the game and the best way to win, so I am happy they are doing well.

As for your second comment, I will tell you what I would have done, but I'm sure as usual you will call me a Monday morning QB. But here goes.

- I would have drafted more than one offensively talented forward with my seven first round picks. Out of those picks we took one offensively talented forward, four defenseman, a goalie and one projected bottom line player, and we are wondering why we can't score goals?

- If all I could get for Lubomir Visnovsky was a 3rd line center and #5/6 d-man, I would not have made the move.

- I would have signed Marian Gaborik to the 5 years he wanted, he is EXACTLY the kind of player we desperately needed then and desperately need now (A pure goal-scorer on Kopitar's wing). This franchise has cheated Kopitar his entire career by never getting him that kind of player, this was their chance and they blew it.

- I never would have touched Ryan Smyth. I realize they were desperate, but it was a short sighted move

I think point one and point three at the biggest blunders, and why we are where we are at as far as lack goal-scoring.

And as for Murray. I do criticize him a lot, but honestly all Terry is doing is playing him and Dean's style of hockey with the roster that Dean has given him. These guys clearly see eye to eye with this defensive style of hockey...so it's unfair to blame Murray when all he is doing is exactly what he was brought in to do, try and win 2-1 hockey games. Replacing Murray is like amputating your arms and legs when you have a brain tumor, the problem is much larger than Murray.


Last edited by Herby: 11-28-2011 at 07:26 PM.
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11-28-2011, 07:33 PM
  #214
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The first comment was directed at a few of my friends on this board who were making fun of Chicago the summer after they won the Cup saying they had mortgaged their future for a championship, I strongly disagreed by saying any team that still has Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook and Bolland are still a seriously good team.

I have long been an advocate of exciting, offensive style hockey like Chicago plays. I think it's good for the game and the best way to win, so I am happy they are doing well.

As for your second comment, I will tell you what I would have done, but I'm sure as usual you will call me a Monday morning QB. But here goes.

- I would have drafted more than one offensively talented forward with my seven first round picks. Out of those picks we took one offensively talented forward, four defenseman, a goalie and one projected bottom line player, and we are wondering why we can't score goals?

- If all I could get for Lubomir Visnovsky was a 3rd line center and #5/6 d-man, I would not have made the move.

- I would have signed Marian Gaborik to the 5 years he wanted, he is EXACTLY the kind of player we desperately needed then and desperately need now (A pure goal-scorer on Kopitar's wing). This franchise has cheated Kopitar his entire career by never getting him that kind of player, this was their chance and they blew it.

- I never would have touched Ryan Smyth. I realize they were desperate, but it was a short sighted move

I think point one and point three at the biggest blunders, and why we are where we are at as far as lack goal-scoring.
Hey no mention of a different coach? Something must be wrong there.

At any rate, I don' think the Visnovsky move was 100% Lombardi's decision but assuming it was, I don't think it was a horrible trade. Visnovsky always has and continues to struggle to be healthy. So while the Oilers got the better player, in the end the Kings have benefited from Stoll/Greene. I know you hate both but I don't agree that they are as bad as you say. But they are depth players for sure. I would say I'm neutral on that issue. I don't think it was the best move or his worst.

The draft picks comment is a fair assesment. I think DL's logic is that blue chip defense can get you blue chip offense. But at the end of the day, balance is needed and the organization is defense heavy at this point. Which isn't a bad thing but it is when the organization does need more offensive depth. It also doesn't help when two of your top prospects bolt for Europe.

Ryan Smyth was a no brainer in my eyes so I'll disagree with you completely on that. They gave up Quincey who looks like he has regained form again but he cost the Kings zero to acquire and like i just said, the Kings have a plethora of defensive prospects. That was not a big loss. Ryan Smyth did help eleveate Kopitar's game and I think even he would tell you that.

The Gaborik thing was a huge risk. He still hasn't played an 82 game season but I did lobby for him that summer. I think the Kings could've managed his salary so I guess I'll agree with you there but it is much easier to say that now than the summer he was available.

Anyway, I wasn't really looking to dwell on the past. I'm kinda interested in what people feel the direction the organization needs to go. Like who replaces TM/DL? What will they bring to the table that will get the Kings to that place? Those are very difficult questions and I think it is easy for all of us to sit here and say the results are poor or underwhelming. I think most agree. The problem is how do you turn that around? That is no simple answer and I always get the impression that some of you guys think it is so simple when every team in the league struggles with similar issues quite regularly with few exceptions.

I don't want to see the Kings lose but I also believe the team is much better than the way they are playing regardless who is coaching. LIke I said in the other thread, the Kings were 9th in scoring 2 seasons ago. Is is really that farfetched to believe that Kings could land somewhere between where they are now adn where they were then, with what most would consider a much better roster? I personlly don't think it is that big of a stretch.

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11-28-2011, 07:51 PM
  #215
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I'm not going to bother answering this since no matter what I say it won't be testable. This is a forum for fan comment, not just a "happy talk - Gee, the Kings are great!" bilge.

IMO, it's clear that what DL and TM are doing isn't bringing in the results that they expected or that we expected. If it is indeed what they expected, then they set their sights way too low.

In order to tell you what the Kings should do, we'd have to go back and rewind some of the things that they already have done - and that's not possible.

... and it's not easy. Nothing is, but to sit back and not question anything because they "know more about hockey" is debatable. They might have better stick skills and skate better, but that doesn't mean that they know more about the tactics or that their player moves are any better than anyone else's.

If you don't like what we say, feel free to block us - but either way I'm going to continue posting my opinions

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11-28-2011, 08:04 PM
  #216
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Exactly PSP,

So many of the moves have been made in the name of "Building from the back out" for six seasons that is what they have been doing, and that is why we are where we are at with an inability to score goals.

The personnel and coaching are a direct result of the organizational philosophy, until that changes the results on the ice will continue to be what they are. Dean Lombardi is not going to change his stripes, either you believe that defensive 2-1 hockey is the most successful way to build a hockey team or you don't. Not to offend anyone here, but the people that say "I believe in Dean, but not Terry" are a bit ignorant in my mind, because they are one in the same, they both subscribe to the defensive style.

I personally don't believe in this style, and I realize that bringing in yet another coach is not going to change things. This team actually needs a defensive coach who believes in Lombardi 2-1 hockey. An offensive coach with Dean's views on personnel would not mix.

I hope Lombardi is replaced sooner than later, but as long as he is here we are better off with Murray. Although I hope they are both dumped soon.

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11-28-2011, 08:25 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
What are you looking for people to say? You want everyone to scream about what a loser DL and TM are? I mean reall, most people are on your side at this point but you still have this "us vs them" mentality.

Like I've asked you, PSP and everyone else that loves to be critical, if the answers are so obvious, what are they? By all means, please tell us what the Kings need to do. I think most people acknowledge the coaches shortcomings. You'd be hard pressed to think he is anything about a dimwit given your comments but the fact is both TM and DL know way more about hockey than you or anyone on this message board which why they have a job doing it and you, along with the rest of us, waste our time discussing it.

You sit there sniping away from your keyboard regurgitating the same diatribe over and over as if you are so much brighter than the rest of us.

I thought in the summertime, you thought DL had assembled a fairly talented squad. Now you are criticizing the players saying they only know how to play TM/DL hockey and this is what it is. You paint some doom and gloom picture as if this is as good as it gets. Well, I personally refuse to believe that the players that are on this team all of sudden forgot how to play hockey. I think coaching issues are pretty evident as they have been for about a year now but you speak as if this organization is in the same situation personnel-wise as they were in 2005/2006 and even PSP wouldn't agree with you on that.


Post of the thread.


Defeaters will always be defeaters. Some guys just like to pile on. Herby and PSP bring up some solid points and yes the team has problems. But for the most part, it's better then it used to be, but that doesn't stop those who will always be negative, because lord knows they are the ones that love saying "I told you so." the most.

Yea see it everywhere in life. Not just sports. Some people love to just rain on the parade and be negative to do it. It's like people who complain about reffing. Doesn't matter how clearly blatant a call is, there are those who fall back on blaming everything on the refs *Cough Brian Hayward* just so that one time when the ref does make a bad call they can feel good about themselves and say "LOOK SEE I TOLD YOU ALL HAHA!"

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11-28-2011, 08:46 PM
  #218
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Post of the thread.


Defeaters will always be defeaters. Some guys just like to pile on. Herby and PSP bring up some solid points and yes the team has problems. But for the most part, it's better then it used to be, but that doesn't stop those who will always be negative, because lord knows they are the ones that love saying "I told you so." the most.

Yea see it everywhere in life. Not just sports. Some people love to just rain on the parade and be negative to do it. It's like people who complain about reffing. Doesn't matter how clearly blatant a call is, there are those who fall back on blaming everything on the refs *Cough Brian Hayward* just so that one time when the ref does make a bad call they can feel good about themselves and say "LOOK SEE I TOLD YOU ALL HAHA!"
For the record, those of us that are negative re the direction of the team rarely say "ITYS" - you'll find out soon enough that we are right

Yeah, that's right - we just point out things that are wrong because that's the easy way out. It's much easier than saying everything is great because you don't have to critically analyze anything!

Oh, wait - yes you do! It takes thought and analysis to actually question something. Nothing could be easier than throwing on the purple glasses and saying that everything that the Kings are doing is perfect and the results are GREAT!

... except things AREN'T great - they are barely good. How tough is it to sit back and bask in what could be vs what actually is. The reality is that the Kings aren't playing at a pace that will make the playoffs even though they sacrificed a huge part of the future to try to make a run this year.

Please let me know when the tangible results actually come close to your perceived results...


Last edited by PSP: 11-28-2011 at 09:02 PM.
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11-28-2011, 08:58 PM
  #219
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4th in the division, 10th in the conference. If that's success, I don't want to know what failure is.


and "positioned" = ZERO if no more wins are attached.
True if the Kings lose every game from now to the end of the season than they won't make the playoffs, if they win one game tonight they may be in first in the Pacific. So every team in the West is one loss from failure and one win from domination. no wonder we are all bi-polar

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11-28-2011, 09:02 PM
  #220
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if they win one game tonight they may be in first in the Pacific.
Of course, SJ would still have 3 games in hand, but .....

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11-28-2011, 09:11 PM
  #221
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Of course, SJ would still have 3 games in hand, but .....
and "positioned" = ZERO if no more wins are attached.

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11-28-2011, 09:18 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by onlyalad View Post
and "positioned" = ZERO if no more wins are attached.
Do you think that is reasonable? More reasonable would be to assume that they will earn about the average points per game that they have earned so far. Their average is 1.35 points per game, so give them 4 points for comparison

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11-28-2011, 09:29 PM
  #223
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Do you think that is reasonable? More reasonable would be to assume that they will earn about the average points per game that they have earned so far. Their average is 1.35 points per game, so give them 4 points for comparison
I just think it is funny that you use one statement to prove your point and discredit your statement when it is applied to another team. You want to say how bad the Kings are doing but they are doing the same as everyone else. I think you just like to complain. Not saying that you don't have some points just if it applies to the Kings it applies to the Sharks as well.

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11-28-2011, 09:41 PM
  #224
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Let's move on to the next game.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=1040585

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