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Trade Rumors and Proposals Thread XIX | Trade Spezza Edition

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Old
11-29-2011, 10:02 AM
  #76
Lenny the Lynx
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Originally Posted by Slippy View Post
I understand the patience a lot of people are preaching when it cmees to what would be the presumed asking price for Bobby Ryan. I actually appreciate it because it shows everyone is on baord with the rebuild. But I would be careful. Holding on to "probablys" and "likely tos" is great, but nothing beats a proven commodity.

Stone may turn into a top power forward, if everything goes perfect. Zibanejad could be a better all around player. Silfverberg might be a 20-30 goal guy.

Bobby Ryan IS a 24-year-old, three-time 30+ goal scorer.

I'm not saying, the Sens should pay any price to get him, but you don't ignore certainty for possibly.
Yeah but we aren't talking about a one for one trade. Because these prospects are unproven you'd have to package a few of them. That's where it gets more risky for me. If all those guys pan out (and thats a big if) you could be trading a good part of the future core for one player.

Then we could end up like Toronto with one good player. That's not how you win cups

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11-29-2011, 10:14 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by BumperStumper View Post
Yeah but we aren't talking about a one for one trade. Because these prospects are unproven you'd have to package a few of them. That's where it gets more risky for me. If all those guys pan out (and thats a big if) you could be trading a good part of the future core for one player.

Then we could end up like Toronto with one good player. That's not how you win cups
I think it's too early for this kind of deal.

We have to see what we have first. This is the kind of deal you make in a few years by selling off our 1st rounders down the road, as well as a prospect, when a player like Ryan will put you into the elite space.

It's just too soon IMO.

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11-29-2011, 10:23 AM
  #78
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The Ducks probably want a young 2nd line C to create a strong 1-2 punch down the middle with Getzlaf. We are looking for one as well so I can't see how we can pull a trade for Ryan.

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11-29-2011, 10:25 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by BumperStumper View Post
Yeah but we aren't talking about a one for one trade. Because these prospects are unproven you'd have to package a few of them. That's where it gets more risky for me. If all those guys pan out (and thats a big if) you could be trading a good part of the future core for one player.

Then we could end up like Toronto with one good player. That's not how you win cups
I was never suggesting a one-for-one trade was realistic, I merely wanted to state my opinion that some fall in love to much with prospects that may or may not work out. I did not name the prospects I did because I felt they were a fair offer for Ryan.

I actually finshished my post off with "I'm not saying, the Sens should pay any price to get him, but..."

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11-29-2011, 10:31 AM
  #80
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A 24 year old, 30 goal scorer, who is being shopped that has had a questionable work ethic since being drafted that just signed a huge contract... no risk there.

Who else was a goal scorer that peaked around 24 years old that had a questionable work ethic and signed a huge contract... man, I know this one but I can't remember who. I think he actually played for the Sens.

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11-29-2011, 10:34 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Billy Madison View Post
A 24 year old, 30 goal scorer, who is being shopped that has had a questionable work ethic since being drafted that just signed a huge contract... no risk there.

Who else was a goal scorer that peaked around 24 years old that had a questionable work ethic and signed a huge contract... man, I know this one but I can't remember who. I think he actually played for the Sens.
He didn't peak at 24, he killed someone in a car crash. Heatley's skating was/is way worse than Ryan's.

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11-29-2011, 10:39 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
He didn't peak at 24, he killed someone in a car crash. Heatley's skating was/is way worse than Ryan's.
Oh sorry, what age was it where Heatley started going downhill again?

Either way, I made my point. Character issues, poor work ethic, and a huge contract that was just signed. Ryan is hardly a can't miss player and people should be asking "why is Anahiem trying to trade a 24 year old, 30 goal guy" vs "what would it take to get him". I know the answer to the second question. Way too much.

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11-29-2011, 10:58 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
He didn't peak at 24, he killed someone in a car crash. Heatley's skating was/is way worse than Ryan's.


Heatley actually wasn't a bad skater until he decided he didn't need to be in-shape to play the game. His approach to fitness and the car accident have caught up to him IMO, and while Ryan isn't a great skater definitely seems to move better than Heatley now.

This is not to say Ryan is a great skater, he really isn't, actually very awkward at times.

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Old
11-29-2011, 10:59 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Billy Madison View Post
Oh sorry, what age was it where Heatley started going downhill again?

Either way, I made my point. Character issues, poor work ethic, and a huge contract that was just signed. Ryan is hardly a can't miss player and people should be asking "why is Anahiem trying to trade a 24 year old, 30 goal guy" vs "what would it take to get him". I know the answer to the second question. Way too much.
Probably because despite the talent on the roster, they don't like the way their roster is set up....they aren't winning. They can't trade Getzlaf or Perry. But they may think they need a shake up.

You can't just compare it to Heatley..."well, Heatley left and he lost it so any good player that comes available is at too much of a risk of declining too".

Ryan's got more dimensions then Heatley anyways. I just doubt we have the right players for Anaheim.

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11-29-2011, 11:01 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by The Swedish Flash View Post
The Ducks probably want a young 2nd line C to create a strong 1-2 punch down the middle with Getzlaf. We are looking for one as well so I can't see how we can pull a trade for Ryan.
Not sure the second line center is the problem, it seems more to be with the back end.

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11-29-2011, 11:03 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
Probably because despite the talent on the roster, they don't like the way their roster is set up....they aren't winning. They can't trade Getzlaf or Perry. But they may think they need a shake up.

You can't just compare it to Heatley..."well, Heatley left and he lost it so any good player that comes available is at too much of a risk of declining too".

Ryan's got more dimensions then Heatley anyways. I just doubt we have the right players for Anaheim.
I agree with with you MoO, the Sens just don't have the assets that the Ducks would be looking for in return for Ryan.

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Old
11-29-2011, 11:05 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
Probably because despite the talent on the roster, they don't like the way their roster is set up....they aren't winning. They can't trade Getzlaf or Perry. But they may think they need a shake up.

You can't just compare it to Heatley..."well, Heatley left and he lost it so any good player that comes available is at too much of a risk of declining too".

Ryan's got more dimensions then Heatley anyways. I just doubt we have the right players for Anaheim.
You can absolutely compare players with poor work ethic, big contracts, and playing with 2 elite players. I think from a hockey stand point, comparing Healtey and Ryan is 100% legit. (Besides Heatley hitting marks Ryan may not even come close to)

Spezza/Alfi = Getzlaf/Perry. Both signed huge deals and proceeded to struggle/stop working. Both had serious question marks about their attitude and work ethic. What is so different about those 2 players?

Also, you said "probably" the reason. You can speculate all you wish but the fact remains if this is true, you have to question why it is Ryan being shopped/moved.

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Old
11-29-2011, 11:11 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Billy Madison View Post
You can absolutely compare players with poor work ethic, big contracts, and playing with 2 elite players. I think from a hockey stand point, comparing Healtey and Ryan is 100% legit.

Spezza/Alfi = Getzlaf/Perry. Both signed huge deals and proceeded to struggle/stop working. Both had serious question marks about their attitude and work ethic. What is so different about those 2 players?

Also, you said "probably" the reason. You can speculate all you wish but the fact remains if this is true, you have to question why it is Ryan being shopped/moved.
While definitely a valid question, you must remember the Ducks organization has commited over $60M in salaries and finds themselves rapidly falling out of the playoff picture.

The old adage, 'you have to give something to get something' definitely applies in this case. So assuming Perry, Getzlaf and probably Fowler are untouchable, what assets remain that might bring a package in return that fills the holes? Ryan is the logical next choice.

IMO if the Ducks were to trade Ryan, it will be for a proven defenceman, but before the Ducks make that move there will be a coaching change in the hope it will kick start things.

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Old
11-29-2011, 11:18 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Billy Madison View Post
A 24 year old, 30 goal scorer, who is being shopped that has had a questionable work ethic since being drafted that just signed a huge contract... no risk there.

Who else was a goal scorer that peaked around 24 years old that had a questionable work ethic and signed a huge contract... man, I know this one but I can't remember who. I think he actually played for the Sens.
ya Winchester used us like a bunch of chumps!



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Old
11-29-2011, 11:19 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
While definitely a valid question, you must remember the Ducks organization has commited over $60M in salaries and finds themselves rapidly falling out of the playoff picture.

The old adage, 'you have to give something to get something' definitely applies in this case. So assuming Perry, Getzlaf and probably Fowler are untouchable, what assets remain that might bring a package in return that fills the holes? Ryan is the logical next choice.

IMO if the Ducks were to trade Ryan, it will be for a proven defenceman, but before the Ducks make that move there will be a coaching change in the hope it will kick start things.
There are other guys in Anahiem that could be moved if it was just money. Anyways, IMO, Ryan's production is in large part to a Hart Trophy winner and a top 10 center in the NHL. If anyone looks at Ryan and sees a sure fire, top end winger... they may want to look again. I'm not saying he isn't going to be one but I am saying if people think it's a gauarantee, it's anything but. Least we forget what it would take to get him.

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11-29-2011, 11:25 AM
  #91
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There are other guys in Anahiem that could be moved if it was just money. Anyways, IMO, Ryan's production is in large part to a Hart Trophy winner and a top 10 center in the NHL. If anyone looks at Ryan and sees a sure fire, top end winger... they may want to look again. I'm not saying he isn't going to be one but I am saying if people think it's a gauarantee, it's anything but. Least we forget what it would take to get him.
Sorry I wasn't suggesting it had to do with money, as in shed salary. What I meant is they are spending close to the cap because they thought they had a team that would compete for the cup.

Obviously that isn't working out for them, so if Ryan could bring them the piece(s) they believe they need, a trade is possible.

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Old
11-29-2011, 11:27 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Billy Madison View Post
A 24 year old, 30 goal scorer, who is being shopped that has had a questionable work ethic since being drafted that just signed a huge contract... no risk there.

Who else was a goal scorer that peaked around 24 years old that had a questionable work ethic and signed a huge contract... man, I know this one but I can't remember who. I think he actually played for the Sens.
I don't think Ryan has ever been known to have a bad work ethic nor has he ever been considered a cancer. I don't feel the Heatley comparison is warranted. You can question all you like but it's simply speculation and I don't think the "trade rumours" warrant that. Turris' case is obviously very different. He purposely held out signing a contract. A lot of our perceptions are perpetuated by what we see in the media. I haven't seen anything to make me believe Ryan is a trouble maker in the locker room.

I know they're having trouble scoring goals (which seems almost ridiculous with Perry, Getzlaf and Ryan on your team) but they seem to be having a lot of trouble keeping the puck out of their own zone too. Visnovsky isn't getting it done maybe we could offer them Gonchar, or package something around Phillips. I'm sure we'd all love to get rid of Kuba or Lee and we aren't willing to part with Karlsson, Rundblad or Cowen so this is all I could think of.


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Old
11-29-2011, 11:29 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Sorry I wasn't suggesting it had to do with money, as in shed salary. What I meant is they are spending close to the cap because they thought they had a team that would compete for the cup.

Obviously that isn't working out for them, so if Ryan could bring them the piece(s) they believe they need, a trade is possible.
If they believe there is a peice out there that they can only get if Ryan is going the other way, that's fine and could very well be a good move for a team that makes that deal. Shopping Ryan around the NHL (which it seems is the case) shows they want to get rid of him and send him to the highest bidder.

I'm pretty sceptical about them shopping Ryan because he has had questions surrounding his game since he was in Owen Sound.

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11-29-2011, 11:33 AM
  #94
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I don't think Ryan has ever been known to have a bad work ethich nor has he ever been considered a cancer. I don't feel the Heatley comparison is warranted.

I know they're having trouble scoring goals (which seems almost ridiculous with Perry, Getzlaf and Ryan on your team) but they seem to have having a lot of trouble keeping the puck out of their own zone too. Visnovsky isn't getting it done maybe we could offer them Gonchar, or package something around Phillips. I'm sure we'd all love to get rid of Kuba or Lee and we aren't willing to part with Karlsson, Rundblad or Cowen so this is all I could think of.
He was having major issues cracking the Ducks lineup in large part to off ice training and his weight. He's not a "lazy" player but he takes a ton of nights off and doesn't work very hard away from the rink. A ton of weight training though, not hockey training.

2 power forwards in their mid 20's playing with 2 high end skilled players, while having signed HUGE 5-6 year deals. What exactly is the difference between Heatley and Ryan there?

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11-29-2011, 11:38 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Billy Madison View Post
He was having major issues cracking the Ducks lineup in large part to off ice training and his weight. He's not a "lazy" player but he takes a ton of nights off and doesn't work very hard away from the rink. A ton of weight training though, not hockey training.

2 power forwards in their mid 20's playing with 2 high end skilled players, while having signed HUGE 5-6 year deals. What exactly is the difference between Heatley and Ryan there?
Heatley never power forward + tore knee in car accident yes

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11-29-2011, 11:42 AM
  #96
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Also, you said "probably" the reason. You can speculate all you wish but the fact remains if this is true, you have to question why it is Ryan being shopped/moved.
Of course you do...

My tone would change if I could see proof he has work ethic issues? I'm not doubting you I've just never heard it.

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11-29-2011, 11:49 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Billy Madison View Post
He was having major issues cracking the Ducks lineup in large part to off ice training and his weight. He's not a "lazy" player but he takes a ton of nights off and doesn't work very hard away from the rink. A ton of weight training though, not hockey training.

2 power forwards in their mid 20's playing with 2 high end skilled players, while having signed HUGE 5-6 year deals. What exactly is the difference between Heatley and Ryan there?
I can't deny that Ryan doesn't have locker issues. You seem to obviously have a greater knowledge of his past problems cracking other lineups. All I have to go on is from what multiple media sources have to say and I've never heard anything about him being a problem in the locker room. Heatley on the other hand has shown otherwise through his various off-ice actions. I'm giving Ryan the benefit of the doubt because there is no evidence to support otherwise.

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Heatley never power forward + tore knee in car accident yes
What he said.

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11-29-2011, 11:54 AM
  #98
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Same post I put in the main thread.

I'm really confused as to how expensive people think Ryan is going to be. Supposedly he has work ethic issues. It took him 3 years to break into the league and he's had the benefit of playing with two world-class players in Getzlaf and Perry. There's a very real chance that his production drops almost anywhere else he goes.

Then you consider that Mike Richards and Jeff Carter, both as good if not better than Perry (though admittedly with not as much upside) were recently traded for Schenn, Simmonds and a 2nd or Voracek and a 1st...why do people think that Ryan is going to return some kind of huge amount?

Ottawa offers Foligno, Lee and a 1st. I can't see Ryan commanding much more than that. If the asking price is higher Ottawa doesn't bite.

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11-29-2011, 11:59 AM
  #99
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Same post I put in the main thread.

I'm really confused as to how expensive people think Ryan is going to be. Supposedly he has work ethic issues. It took him 3 years to break into the league and he's had the benefit of playing with two world-class players in Getzlaf and Perry. There's a very real chance that his production drops almost anywhere else he goes.

Then you consider that Mike Richards and Jeff Carter, both as good if not better than Perry (though admittedly with not as much upside) were recently traded for Schenn, Simmonds and a 2nd or Voracek and a 1st...why do people think that Ryan is going to return some kind of huge amount?

Ottawa offers Foligno, Lee and a 1st. I can't see Ryan commanding much more than that. If the asking price is higher Ottawa doesn't bite.
I like the offer. I just think Anaheim will get more from some other team who's willing to overpay. At then end of the day, I don't think there's a fit but I will eat crow if we somehow do deal for Ryan.

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11-29-2011, 12:11 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by playasRus View Post
3rd rounder.

Seriously though, I'd give up our lottery 1st this year and Rundblad for Bobby Ryan.
People are still clueless about how good Rundblad will become I see... It would be a big mistake to trade him.

And what makes you think the Sens will have a lottery pick? I see them having a pick between #7 and #12, like I was saying before the season. However, I thought they were going to finish closer to a top-5 pick. I don't see this happening now unless the Sens hit the injury bug to their best players (Karlsson, Spezza, Michalek, Gonchar)

=============================

Concerning a Bobby Ryan deal...

IMO, Cowen/Karlsson/Rundblad/Lehner/Silfverberg/Zibanejad/Michalek/Spezza/Smith/Stone should all be intouchables for now.

This is what the Sens target to build moving forward (still IMO) :

??????-Spezza-Michalek
Silfverberg-Zibanejad-??????
??????-Smith-Stone

Cowen-Karlsson
??????-Rundblad

Lehner

The thing is Ryan would fit nicely on the 1st line Left Wing...

If the Ducks are interested in anything else we have, then we should really try to acquire Ryan but not at the expense of what we are trying to build.


So IMO, we can't afford to do a 1 or 2 pieces trade for Ryan. It would have to be a 3 or 4 pieces trade.

Something like :

Puempel/Noesen + Prince/Pageau/Da Costa/Regin + Lee + 2012 1st

For

Ryan + a mid prospect/AHL player

is the most we can offer IMO

No idea of the Ducks plans but if they want to boost their prospect pool and go for a retool year, maybe we could do something... They could draft a very good D-man prospect with that pick

If they want immediate help, then we can't help, because it would mean sacrificing the season.

PS : We love Michalek but what about :

Michalek + Lee + Daugavins for Ryan ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamok View Post
The Ducks would want assets that can help the team now anyways. We don't really have any of those.
Unfortunately yes... We have no chance of getting Ryan unless the Ducks go for a retool. I don't see us moving Spezza/Michalek/Karlsson/Rundblad/Cowen as well as this year's first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
I think it's too early for this kind of deal.

We have to see what we have first. This is the kind of deal you make in a few years by selling off our 1st rounders down the road, as well as a prospect, when a player like Ryan will put you into the elite space.

It's just too soon IMO.
Very good point, might be a little ahead of ourselves... Next season could be a better timing for this


Last edited by Xspyrit: 11-29-2011 at 12:19 PM.
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