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Gm #24 Kings v. Sharks, 11/28/11 - Post Game WIN, Thoughts & Tidbits

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Old
11-29-2011, 04:57 PM
  #151
kingsfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
You keep saying this but the Kings were 9th in the league in goals for in 2009/2010 with a lesser roster. Don't let that get in the way of your bashing, though. Maybe that was an anomaly but is it really out of the question to think that a better roster could perform at least somewhere between where they are now and where they were then?
It was and wasn't an anomoly. I got into this in another post earlier this month. I'll spare you the number crunching and give you a synapsis of what I posted.

During his time with Washington, Philaldephia and Florida, Terry Murray teams (where he was the head coach) finished outside the top 10 in league scoring only twice, once in Washington and once in Florida. Both times it was in his first year with the club.

Murray however took about 6-7 years off between his time in Florida and when he came to LA. The Kings were 28th in goals his first year, 9th the second (I actually thought it was 7th, but I'll use your total of 9th) and then 24th last year (I think, I know I'm close) This year, I think they are 26th.

So that goal total wasn't an anomoly for Murray-led teams if you look at his entire career, but when you look solely at his time with the Kings, which is the only head coaching job he's had in a decade and since the lockout, that 9th place finish is very much an anomoly.

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11-29-2011, 05:02 PM
  #152
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Richards will be on NHL live soon. looks like ill have to put up with E.J for a few minutes, better be worth it!

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Old
11-29-2011, 05:06 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Since we've discussed Goals For ad naseum and we all recognize the significance of the stat, how about these stats:

10/11 Bos 2nd
09/10 Chi 6th
08/09 Pitt 17th
07/08 Det 1st
06/07 Ana 7th
05/06 Car 19th

Those are the Goals Against rankings for the Cup winners since the lockout so while Goals For is a very important stat, Goals Against is just as important.
Goals for ranking (regular season) for cup winners:

06 Carolina 3rd
07 Anaheim 8th
08 Detroit 3rd
09 Pittsburgh 6th
10 Chicago 3rd
11 Boston 5th

If anything, it's starting to look like the old adage about a good defense winning you a cup isn't what it once was. Two cup winners with a below average defense in the last six years, but not one offense ranked below 8th has won the cup since the lockout.

We currently rank 26th btw, slightly behind Columbus.

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11-29-2011, 05:12 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Duc620 View Post
I agree.

But I believe these players have the green light or permission to do that from Murray. Despite what many here believe, I don't see Murray refusing to play offense in his system. I see players who haven't made a complete adjustment and commitment to the way he wants the attack to be run.

It will never be a pretty, up-the-ice Capitals, Penguins, or Oilers type of attack. It is a hard play, forecheck based system that really pays dividends (and goals) when played with a fast smothering forecheck. But, the team has to establish that first in each and every game. That's one of the reasons they look so abysmal when they don't establish it and get the opponents running around. That's why the shoot first and often attitude has to be established.

Your point about a good offense being the best defense is exactly on point. Murray's system is very good for that when played properly. Hard forecheck, keep them pinned up, let the pucks fly at the net.... keeping the opponents off balance and disorganized by peppering them with hits and shots. Never let them setup their defense system by forcing them to react to us.

The Sharks did it in the third. That's what Detroit used to take us apart.

I can agree with some of that, but watching the Kings, I have to believe that Murray wants his players along the boards and above the circles (at least more often than between the dots). That is where I see the players skate and most of these players have played for other teams and would attack the middle of the ice more often. Richards is one of the few that really attacks the middle of the ice, whether he is trying to pass through the middle or skate through the middle. I'm not sure why he is the only one that does it, but his goal last night doesn't happen if he doesn't drive the net. I'm not sure if he just does it because he hasn't been here long enough to get the talk from Murray, but he has been successful, so maybe Murray lets it go because he has 10 goals in 10 games.

Loktionov had a couple of chances to attack the middle of the slot without the puck and he skated to the top of the circles with his stick ready for a one-timer. He should have been between the dots to draw the defense away from the points, instead the defenders were able to control three Kings by staying in the shooting lanes.

Of course, you can't attack the middle on every play and I don't expect highlight reel goals every game, but there has to be some middle drive more often. You hear Murray say it all the time, but actions speak much louder than words. Kopitar needs to start attacking the middle of the ice again, he has drifted back to the safe areas and his scoring has slowed again.

Brown does look better attacking from the off-wing, but he does that all the time, even when he was technically the RW on his line. His move looked good last night, but we've seen that same play hundreds of times with little success. I really wish Voynov had buried that puck; it was nice to see him attack down low 4-on-4. The Kings seem to switch better when they are playing 4-on-4 than when they are 5-on-5.

I just can't see how the players can be completely responsible for the lack of 5-on-5 offense after 4 years of Murray. Letting the Kings play more "dot-to-dot" offense would be a welcome sight, they do it in very limited spurts and you can tell this isn't the primary way Murray wants them playing. This is why you here him praise players for their "dot-to-board" play. Again Richards seems to be the only one spending a lot of time between the dots and below the circles.

The Kings do have an aggressive forecheck, but not enough players push the play through the middle. Too often they attack along the boards and have to dump it in and they get checked easily along the boards and allow the defenders to exit the zone. Attacking through the middle creates problems for the defense because you can go either way and they tend to back off more often when the attack is through the middle. Kings just need to switch it up more often to keep the defense honest. I think the Kings are too predictable and it allows that extra second for the defense to get to the puck before the Kings can establish the forecheck.

How often do you see the Kings stop up just after the blue to allow the other players to skate through the play and force the defense back? You see other teams do it all of the time and it helps create space for shooting and passing lanes. The Kings would rather dump it in because it is safer. Murray hates turnovers more than anything and it is safe to dump it deep and try and recover, but this limits your offensive opportunities.

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Old
11-29-2011, 05:15 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
That was all due to the PP that season (5th most goals). They were 19th in 5-on-5 goals. PP goals are a bad way to boost up your offense. You never know how many PPs you are going to get in any given game and you usually get fewer opportunities in the playoffs. I would rather be 5th in 5-on-5 goals and 19th on the PP.

The Kings had an insane PP against Vancouver in the playoffs and it didn't prevent them from losing in 6 games. It's easier to shutdown 3 or 4 PPs against than stop a good 5-on-5 team for 40+ minutes.
Understood and I don't disagree. I think there is more potential out of the current team even under Murray. That is a point I've been making all along. I don't htink that makes them a top 10 offensive team but it is better than what we've seen.

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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Balance is the key to everything in life. Offense, defense & goaltending. But if you are going to have one higher than the other, offense has been the more important indicator. Since Murray likes to "play the percentages", you would think he would want a stronger offense. I would take a 33% chance over 0% chance.
I agree. I think the reason he was brought here was to get the younger players to learn to play defense. Either he, or they, or a combination of the two haven't adjusted in the past season and a 1/4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post

It's not just as important. It nice, but 2 teams have won without a top 10 defense. No one has won without a top 10 offense.
Ok it might not be JUST as important but it is ALMOST as important. It is pretty telling when


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post

You make it sound like you can't have both a good offense and a good defense. The best teams have both.
I'm not sure where you got this impression. I've taken the time to post both the offensive #'s and defensive #'s of the form Cup champions. Did you just think that I didn't bother to look at them? I don't think there is any coincidence that most of them have a good offensive and defensive #'s.

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11-29-2011, 05:16 PM
  #156
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You guys are still *****#$% and Moaning ?> The Sharks had no answer for the Kings aggressive play in the first two periods.

Give the Kings some credit for once jesus.

I also find it comical no one has discussed this: POSTED by Johnjm22

It's been our biggest problem when it matters the most.

09-10 Playoffs:
4.17 Goals Against Per Game (Worst amongst all playoff teams)
3.00 Goals Scored Per Game

10-11 Playoffs:
3.33 Goals Against Per Game (4th worst amonst all playoff teams)
3.33 Goals Scored Per Game (Best amongst all playoff teams)

Offense has not been a problem in the playoff's

The Defense has been down right awful.

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Old
11-29-2011, 05:25 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
You guys are still *****#$% and Moaning ?> The Sharks had no answer for the Kings aggressive play in the first two periods.

Give the Kings some credit for once jesus.

I also find it comical no one has discussed this: POSTED by Johnjm22

It's been our biggest problem when it matters the most.

09-10 Playoffs:
4.17 Goals Against Per Game (Worst amongst all playoff teams)
3.00 Goals Scored Per Game

10-11 Playoffs:
3.33 Goals Against Per Game (4th worst amonst all playoff teams)
3.33 Goals Scored Per Game (Best amongst all playoff teams)

Offense has not been a problem in the playoff's
The Defense has been down right awful.
You're right, Murray should have been fired after last season's playoffs. How can a defense-only coach lose his team so badly when it matters most? Not just once, but twice. It's not like the Kings have struggled against Vancouver or San Jose in the regular season, they have been pretty even. And it's not like they went against Chicago in the playoffs, a team that has dominated the Kings for a few years during the regular season.

I still think Kopitar getting injured saved his job. It gave everyone an excuse for the collapse, the Kings could have won the Pacific or at least been the 4th seed. Instead they lost back-to-back games to give the 4th seed to Anaheim.

But instead, I will just go with a small sample size of 6 games being the reason for the stats.

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11-29-2011, 05:27 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
You're right, Murray should have been fired after last season's playoffs. How can a defense-only coach lose his team so badly when it matters most? Not just once, but twice. It's not like the Kings have struggled against Vancouver or San Jose in the regular season, they have been pretty even. And it's not like they went against Chicago in the playoffs, a team that has dominated the Kings for a few years during the regular season.

I still think Kopitar getting injured saved his job. It gave everyone an excuse for the collapse, the Kings could have won the Pacific or at least been the 4th seed. Instead they lost back-to-back games to give the 4th seed to Anaheim.

But instead, I will just go with a small sample size of 6 games being the reason for the stats.
Well he is here to stay, so better hope he can get the Kings to play Defense come playoff time. Serious Bro you are like a broken record. Do the Kings get any credit for last night ?

I often wonder, do the Kings do anything right in your mind?

Also you keep saying the Pro Terry Murray crowd. There is not one post in this entire PGDT that gives Murray credit for anything. At least I didn't see any, It's about how well the Kings played.

And how certain people don't post when the Kings play well (cause it 's comical).


Last edited by damacles1156: 11-29-2011 at 05:35 PM.
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11-29-2011, 05:57 PM
  #159
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I do what I want. I didn't say all anyways i know plenty of fans that gave Quick credit. Just the delusional ones that need to be thumped.
It's all good. . Us Californian hockey fans get enough asinine comments from Canadians and Northeasters, no need to bicker amongst each other.

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11-29-2011, 06:41 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
It's all good. . Us Californian hockey fans get enough asinine comments from Canadians and Northeasters, no need to bicker amongst each other.
Agreed, kings and sharks fans have bring us together

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11-29-2011, 07:47 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
And how certain people don't post when the Kings play well (cause it 's comical).
This would get boring if everyone agreed all the time

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11-29-2011, 08:10 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
.... I have to believe that Murray wants his players along the boards and above the circles (at least more often than between the dots). That is where I see the players skate and most of these players have played for other teams and would attack the middle of the ice more often. Richards is one of the few that really attacks the middle of the ice, whether he is trying to pass through the middle or skate through the middle. I'm not sure why he is the only one that does it, but his goal last night doesn't happen if he doesn't drive the net. I'm not sure if he just does it because he hasn't been here long enough to get the talk from Murray, but he has been successful, so maybe Murray lets it go because he has 10 goals in 10 games....
I think it's probably just what happens to the puck, right? It gets pushed around and whacked, a missed pass or lifted stick and its on the boards sliding towards the blueline. So, some of it's just "go where the puck goes".

What's on the players? Well, I think Murray's dot to board is not just about a static position on the wall. A lot of it is puck recovery and keeping the opponent pinned for the low cycle and forecheck. That's very hard, grinding work and players don't like it all the time. That's what I see.

Again, there are some timing issues, such as when does a player release across the center, slash across the zone. There were a bunch of these plays last night. As their timing gets better and as their passes get better that should improve. OTOH, with today's defensive systems and stick technique, it's very very difficult to develop plays through the slot at the start of an attack. You have to get the D running around and then pass low to high (corner to slot). That's where the timing comes in along with the quality of passer and receiver.

Most of the Kings forwards have not looked that sharp in terms of their passing this year. The three passes between Mitchell, Gagne, and Richards that lead to MR's goal just makes it obvious. The Kings don't really have a high end offensive skill coach who could work that... even pro's need that kind of practice to have the touch Gagne showed. Most of the Kings forwards pass like a well-schooled Defenseman, hard, on tape, and fast across the ice - they never show much touch. And the receivers all seem to have hard hands - I see a lot of bounces. But that's the game these days.

Richards is an unfair comparison. His vision and sense of timing for an attack and suddenly raising the pace, his fearlessness, it's all so fun to watch. Not many guys in the league have what he has.

Nice post, Syd... great read!

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11-29-2011, 08:18 PM
  #163
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I must say I am amazed by the number of NHL players that seem to have difficulty receiving a pass. Where is Bombay and his carton of eggs?

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11-29-2011, 08:42 PM
  #164
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... must be the ice.

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11-29-2011, 09:14 PM
  #165
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http://www.nhl.com/ice/blog.htm?id=213

This is what the NHL blog shows. I still don't see the conclusive evidence that they used to overturn the call. Kings won and that is all that matters but for a team that has trouble scoring, every goal helps their confidence.

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11-29-2011, 09:34 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Kopi11 View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/blog.htm?id=213

This is what the NHL blog shows. I still don't see the conclusive evidence that they used to overturn the call. Kings won and that is all that matters but for a team that has trouble scoring, every goal helps their confidence.
what was Brown saying when the ruling was made

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Old
11-29-2011, 10:23 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
I felt Quick played a great game and that the Kings forwards and defense out-hustled the Sharks to lose pucks, shooting lanes, and body position.

You shouldn't take a few statements from some and generalize a whole fan base.
Sorry, that certainly wasn't my intention.

I was at the game last night and a couple of Sharks fans took exception to a legal (slight) hit from a King on a Shark who carried the puck out of the defensive zone.

One of the fans above me yelled "get your arms down" and I basically told them they needed to learn the game. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the hit; as a matter of fact, it wasn't much of anything at all, but those Sharks fans seemed to think their players should never be touched.

In any event, that was in my mind when I made the post...seems like after all these years, Sharks and Ducks fans (generally) need to learn the game and not boo every freaking slight against their own team.

Of course, not all fans are that unknowledgeable. It just seems such behavior is prevalent in San Josť more than elsewhere.

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11-29-2011, 10:57 PM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron View Post
.

Of course, not all fans are that unknowledgeable. It just seems such behavior is prevalent in San Josť more than elsewhere.

Clearly you haven't met many


Ducks
Canucks
Flyers
Canadiens
Maple Leafs
Avalanche
Oilers

fans.


I woud say all of those rank much higher on the unknowing and ridiculous meter.

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11-30-2011, 10:10 AM
  #169
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... must be the ice.
Shh. It can only be the coach.

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11-30-2011, 12:50 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I must say I am amazed by the number of NHL players that seem to have difficulty receiving a pass. Where is Bombay and his carton of eggs?

Last I heard he was walking with his dad in Spain.

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11-30-2011, 02:39 PM
  #171
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This would get boring if everyone agreed all the time
Agreed.

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11-30-2011, 02:44 PM
  #172
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This would get boring if everyone agreed all the time
Well, you can be controversial or right.

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