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Old
11-29-2011, 11:07 PM
  #76
5 Minute Major
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Roy would pull a great return. He's been a 70-point center with a $4m cap hit. I think more than 2/3 of the teams in the league would have some level of interest. I think plenty of teams would make significant offers for Roy.

Stafford has value. He has size, skill, and he's rounded out his game in the last year, adding two-way play and penalty-killing to his repertoire. I don't think he's been bad at all this season, he just hasn't been scoring. But I don't think he'd be viewed poorly for his nightly performances by GMs who are watching him closely. Stafford is like Lupul in that some team will always value him for his tools, so he's not that big of a risk for a team to acquire, even with 3+ years left on his deal. And for all the people who argued that his shooting% last year was not sustainable--and I agreed--he's not going to continue shooting at 6% this year. He'll likely start working his way back to his career average of 12%.
I just hold a different opinion about these two players as you do.

I think we can agree that Stafford is being paid 4 million a year to score goals......yet, since he came into the league, he only has 10 more goals than Jochen Hecht during that time.

I believe Stafford's value is terribly overrated by a lot of people.

And, I won't even mention their paltry ability to score goals in the most important part of an NHL season....that being the playoffs.

Heck, yes I will.

Stafford: 3 goals in 20 playoff games.

Roy: 7 goals in 41 playoff games. (2 in his last 23)

YUCK.

Bobby Ryan: 8 goals in 19 playoff games.


Last edited by 5 Minute Major: 11-29-2011 at 11:14 PM.
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Old
11-29-2011, 11:13 PM
  #77
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I just hold a different opinion about these two players as you do.

I think we can agree that Stafford is being paid 4 million a year to score goals......yet, since he came into the league, he only has 10 more goals than Jochen Hecht during that time.

I believe Stafford's value is terribly overrated by a lot of people.

And, I won't even mention their paltry ability to score goals in the most important part of an NHL season....that being the playoffs.

Heck, yes I will.

Stafford: 3 goals in 20 playoff games.

Roy: 7 goals in 41 playoff games.

YUCK.
And yet a team just gave Tim Connolly $9.5m despite not scoring a playoff goal in 29 games. Roy and Stafford would both attract interest. Look at Joffrey Lupul. How many times has he been traded? He and Staff have essentially the same per game numbers if you go by age. Like Lupul, Staff has the pedigree, both having been high 1st round picks. Both can score goals. Both have nice size. I think you're fooling yourself if you're one of those people who thinks Stafford's value is a 2nd round pick. I think a team like LA would salivate if we made him available.

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11-29-2011, 11:13 PM
  #78
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As a whole, Drew Stafford has worse numbers than Brad Boyes did and Boyes only garnered a 2nd round pick. Staffords big year was 52 points last season with over 30 goals. That's just 1 season of good production. The rest of his career has been a disappointment.

Derek Roy has not played well this season. I don't care what spin you want to put on it. On top of that he had a severe knee injury last year.

Yeah, a bag of pucks is an old hockey saying that has been around for years and I'm sure you know that.

Now, I answered your question, now why don't you answer mine.

Tell me, what do you expect Roy and Stafford to bring in a trade if they were traded tomorrow. Take into account their salaries as well.
If you actually watch stafford play, you would realize that he's on a huge goal scoring slump, yes. While on this slump, he has played well in every other part of the game. He is more physical than most of our forwards, plays good defensively and on the pk. He doesn't give the puck away. He drives to the net whenever he gets a chance. The only thing he's not doing is putting the puck in the net. And he's a streaky scorer so when he gets one he'll probably start putting in a lot more. Give the guy a break.

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Old
11-29-2011, 11:17 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
And yet a team just gave Tim Connolly $9.5m despite not scoring a playoff goal in 29 games. Roy and Stafford would both attract interest. Look at Joffrey Lupul. How many times has he been traded? He and Staff have essentially the same per game numbers if you go by age. Like Lupul, Staff has the pedigree, both having been high 1st round picks. Both can score goals. Both have nice size. I think you're fooling yourself if you're one of those people who thinks Stafford's value is a 2nd round pick. I think a team like LA would salivate if we made him available.
It's a lot easier to pay a player good money when you don't have to give up compensation.

i.e., Ville Leino

OK, I'll bite on Lupul. What kind of haul to he bring back for the team that traded him?

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11-29-2011, 11:22 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
It's a lot easier to pay a player good money when you don't have to give up compensation.

i.e., Ville Leino

OK, I'll bite on Lupul. What kind of haul to he bring back for the team that traded him?
Teams trade on potential, too. Stafford was arguably their best ES skater in the playoffs last year. That's why he was playing the minutes he was playing in that series. I'm too tired to look it up, but I'm fairly certain he was at or near the top of ES minutes in that series. Again, it didn't translate offensively, but Ruff clearly liked what Stafford was doing.

Lupul was a primary piece in not one, but two Chris Pronger trades.

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11-29-2011, 11:23 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post

OK, I'll bite on Lupul. What kind of haul to he bring back for the team that traded him?
Trade 1:
Lupul, Smid and picks for Chris Pronger

Trade 2:

Lupul and Jason Smith for Joni Pitkanen, Geoff Sanderson, 2009 3rd round pick

Trade 3:

Lupul, Sbisa and 2 1st round picks for Chris Pronger


Each time he's been dealt, it's been as part of a package that returned a top pairing defenseman.

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11-29-2011, 11:30 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Zman5778 View Post
Trade 1:
Lupul, Smid and picks for Chris Pronger

Trade 2:

Lupul and Jason Smith for Joni Pitkanen, Geoff Sanderson, 2009 3rd round pick

Trade 3:

Lupul, Sbisa and 2 1st round picks for Chris Pronger


Each time he's been dealt, it's been as part of a package that returned a top pairing defenseman.
That's nice and all, but being part of a package can mean a lot.

I see twice for Pronger. I know, at least once, Pronger forced a trade. When that happens, the team that ends up trading a player that forces his way out usually gets the shaft.

Hasek?

Peca?

Anyway, still being forgot in this equation, is playoff performances.

Do you think teams gloss them over? Derek Roy scoring 2 goals in 23 games and Drew Stafford scoring 3 in 20 doesn't look all that good to me if I am a GM looking to make a deal.

How do you perform when the chips are down? That is what makes players truly valuable in any sport.

Remember Ville Leino's big post season a couple years ago?

You don't think that was a big reason the Sabres signed him to what they did?

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Old
11-29-2011, 11:37 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
That's nice and all, but being part of a package can mean a lot.

I see twice for Pronger. I know, at least once, Pronger forced a trade. When that happens, the team that ends up trading a player that forces his way out usually gets the shaft.

Hasek?

Peca?

Anyway, still being forgot in this equation, is playoff performances.

Do you think teams gloss them over? Derek Roy scoring 2 goals in 23 games and Drew Stafford scoring 3 in 20 doesn't look all that good to me if I am a GM looking to make a deal.

How do you perform when the chips are down? That is what makes players truly valuable in any sport.

Remember Ville Leino's big post season a couple years ago?

You don't think that was a big reason the Sabres signed him to what they did?
I think we've come to the point where you're arguing just to argue. Several of us have told you why they'd be valuable. In short, Derek Roy is a highly productive center playing on a cap-friendly contract. Center is the most difficult position to find, and this year's UFA center crop may be even worse than last year's. There are teams who can't even sniff players of Roy's ilk in UFA either because they don't have the long-term resources to pay the guy, or because they're not an attractive market. Acquiring a guy like Roy through a trade would be very attractive for many teams.

Stafford is a young player with big scoring potential and has a pretty well-rounded game. Even when he's not scoring he can help you in other ways and he's in no way a liability. He will always be marketable because of the tools he possesses. His contract is not out of whack with what's being given out these days to wingers in UFA. He's a medium-risk, high-reward player, and plenty of teams would love to have him skating on the RW of their top-6.

If we're still in disagreement, I'm not sure that anything I can say or anyone else can say is going to persuade you to the contrary, and we'll have to agree to disagree. With that, I'm out for the night.

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Old
11-29-2011, 11:42 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I think we've come to the point where you're arguing just to argue. Several of us have told you why they'd be valuable. In short, Derek Roy is a highly productive center playing on a cap-friendly contract. Center is the most difficult position to find, and this year's UFA center crop may be even worse than last year's. There are teams who can't even sniff players of Roy's ilk in UFA either because they don't have the long-term resources to pay the guy, or because they're not an attractive market. Acquiring a guy like Roy through a trade would be very attractive for many teams.

Stafford is a young player with big scoring potential and has a pretty well-rounded game. Even when he's not scoring he can help you in other ways and he's in no way a liability. He will always be marketable because of the tools he possesses. His contract is not out of whack with what's being given out these days to wingers in UFA. He's a medium-risk, high-reward player, and plenty of teams would love to have him skating on the RW of their top-6.

If we're still in disagreement, I'm not sure that anything I can say or anyone else can say is going to persuade you to the contrary, and we'll have to agree to disagree. With that, I'm out for the night.
Yes, we can end it at that. Agree to disagree.

I'll leave with this. Sure, Stafford and Roy have value. But, how much is the question. Pretty much every NHL players ends up being dealt at some point in their career.

I think the Sabres have had two players that were career guys in the franchises history. (Perreault and Ramsay)

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11-30-2011, 01:40 AM
  #85
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Done with Stafford and Roy. Even if the move is lateral, time for one or both to move on and shake this team up.

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Old
11-30-2011, 01:46 AM
  #86
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Done with Stafford and Roy. Even if the move is lateral, time for one or both to move on and shake this team up.
For the first time in my life, under this owner, I don't feel immune to a shakeup. I actually think such a thing is possible under Pegula.

But I don't truly expect to see one. Putting Pegula aside, that's not really Regier's style. He'll likely try to pad his puppies by acquiring other pieces around them - and he's not likely to get rid of either of those two, or Poms or Vanek or Miller or Goose for that matter.

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11-30-2011, 01:48 AM
  #87
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For the first time in my life, under this owner, I don't feel immune to a shakeup. I actually think such a thing is possible under Pegula.

But I don't truly expect to see one. Putting Pegula aside, that's not really Regier's style. He'll likely try to pad his puppies by acquiring other pieces around them - and he's not likely to get rid of either of those two, or Poms or Vanek or Miller or Goose for that matter.
I know you like this team because it's like 3am where you are and you're posting in EVERY thread right now.

At least it's only midnight here...go get some sleep!!

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Old
11-30-2011, 01:50 AM
  #88
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I know you like this team because it's like 3am where you are and you're posting in EVERY thread right now.

At least it's only midnight here...go get some sleep!!
This team keeps me up at night. It's not good.

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Old
11-30-2011, 02:14 AM
  #89
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Interesting bit from the Bucky Gleason column released tonight regarding the naming of Jim Kelly Way before the game:

"He also showed me how to connect certain dots, which made me wonder Tuesday why the Ducks had three scouts at the Sabres' game against the Islanders on Tuesday night.

It could be, as a source contended before the game, related to a telephone call I hear they had regarding Ryan Miller on Monday about a possible swap for winger and three-time 30-goal scorer Bobby Ryan. It certainly makes sense, huh Jimbo?"

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/co...icle653586.ece

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11-30-2011, 03:18 AM
  #90
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Interesting bit from the Bucky Gleason column released tonight regarding the naming of Jim Kelly Way before the game:

"He also showed me how to connect certain dots, which made me wonder Tuesday why the Ducks had three scouts at the Sabres' game against the Islanders on Tuesday night.

It could be, as a source contended before the game, related to a telephone call I hear they had regarding Ryan Miller on Monday about a possible swap for winger and three-time 30-goal scorer Bobby Ryan. It certainly makes sense, huh Jimbo?"

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/co...icle653586.ece
If you're claiming it to be a swap, ducky Gleason, then how does it make sense that scouts were in attendance with Miller out of the lineup?

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11-30-2011, 03:50 AM
  #91
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Ducks general manager Bob Murray was slated to take in the Islanders-Sabres game in Buffalo on Tuesday night after spending the weekend in Syracuse, N.Y., for pro scout meetings.
"How to connect certain dots."
Quote:
"That is not true at all, and I have never made any comment concerning my status with the team," Miller told ESPN.com via text message Tuesday. "I am proud of being a Sabre for all we have accomplished, and I am excited about the new chapter Terry and Kim Pegula have inspired. I am working hard to get healthy and build my game back to where I want it so I can start to contribute to an effort to build a championship team."
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...abor-deal-talk

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11-30-2011, 06:39 AM
  #92
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If you're claiming it to be a swap, ducky Gleason, then how does it make sense that scouts were in attendance with Miller out of the lineup?


Bucky is an asshat.

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11-30-2011, 06:42 AM
  #93
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Bucky is an asshat.


Good theory, Bucko.

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11-30-2011, 06:42 AM
  #94
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If you're claiming it to be a swap, ducky Gleason, then how does it make sense that scouts were in attendance with Miller out of the lineup?
My guess is that the potential deal would be larger than just for Miller and they were scouting other guys.

Especially with the young guys up and perhaps Anaheim wanting some youth in a deal.....

I doubt Anaheim is a fit budget-wise with Miller. But, it wouldn't stun me too, too much if they were kicking the tires on Bobby Ryan and Anaheim was asking about Miller.

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11-30-2011, 06:54 AM
  #95
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That would be awesome if you buy into the theory Miller has lost the room. Let's face it Anaheim needs a shakeup too.

Swap?!?!?

That would mean a deal around Hiller and Ryan for Miller and Stafford.

I'd be absolutely fine with that, as we'd be changing two of the six core guys. Perfect. Close the deal Darcy!

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11-30-2011, 09:21 AM
  #96
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That would be awesome if you buy into the theory Miller has lost the room. Let's face it Anaheim needs a shakeup too.

Swap?!?!?

That would mean a deal around Hiller and Ryan for Miller and Stafford.

I'd be absolutely fine with that, as we'd be changing two of the six core guys. Perfect. Close the deal Darcy!
I'd do that one, but I don't think the Ducks would.

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11-30-2011, 09:24 AM
  #97
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Who said Murray was at the game last night? Several have stated that Anaheim had three scouts at the game, which I buy because there are frequently scouts at a lot of games (see the 400 threads per season on the main board regarding one team's scouts being at a game but a trade never materializing). But I'd lend a bit more credence to this Bobby Ryan thing if Murray was in Buffalo.

Is there any confirmation that he was there? Or did we just go from three scouts to Bob Murray by way of a bad game of telephone?

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11-30-2011, 09:32 AM
  #98
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Who said Murray was at the game last night? Several have stated that Anaheim had three scouts at the game, which I buy because there are frequently scouts at a lot of games (see the 400 threads per season on the main board regarding one team's scouts being at a game but a trade never materializing). But I'd lend a bit more credence to this Bobby Ryan thing if Murray was in Buffalo.

Is there any confirmation that he was there? Or did we just go from three scouts to Bob Murray by way of a bad game of telephone?

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11-30-2011, 09:36 AM
  #99
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Yeah, just posted in the Bucky thread that I saw it in LeBrun's column, too. Thanks. I'm happy they may be talking about Ryan. Based on LeBrun's statement that the Ducks would want a young forward, young defenseman, and a high draft pick:

To ANA:

Drew Stafford
Brayden McNabb/Mike Weber
CGY 2nd

To BUF

Bobby Ryan
___________

OR trade Boyes somewhere for a draft pick and

To ANA

Tyler Ennis
Brayden McNabb/Mike Weber
CGY 2nd

To BUF

Bobby Ryan

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11-30-2011, 09:37 AM
  #100
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I'm all for trading for Ryan, but wouldn't it be awesome if Regier shocked us all and took a stab at Getzlaf instead? Haha.

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