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Old
11-30-2011, 07:40 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
My sentiments exactly.

And I'd like to add, of all the major team sports, the NHL is arguably the most competitive (parity). It makes it a whole lot harder to win it.
Yep, but when you lose. I would like to lose exciting not BORING like JM's hockey. I would love to lose Bruins style.

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Old
11-30-2011, 08:01 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
There were more games where we lost without us sucking than games where we sucked.
what's the difference? The goal is to win games. Good teams do it, bad teams don't, no matter the reasons.

The goal isn't to participate or do your best. The goal is to win, period.

The article of Cantin is totally appropriate, like it or not.

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Old
11-30-2011, 08:13 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by BobBarker View Post
''Le Canadien joue sans inspiration. L'ιventuel retour d'Andrei Markov, un gars de 32 ans absent du jeu depuis un an, ne suffira pas ΰ renverser la tendance.''

Habs don't play inspired. 32 year old Markov who's been out of play for a year won't be enough to put the team back on track.

So I guess he's not aware that Crosby registered like 4 or 5 points on his first game after being out 1 year? He's underestimating our injuries big time. It's not only about Markov. Markov, Campoli back means Subban goes no2,3 Dman, Spacek no5,6 with Gill. Diaz or Yemelin no 7 Our transition play will be much better for 20-25 more minutes in a game (guessing Markov's ice time) helping our underperforming Gionta but much more Cammy.

You know what Cantin is? He's like those guys who think the world will end in 2012. Those guys who think that there's conspiracy everywhere. He needs to take his head off his ass and write about facts without sensationalizing them each time or else he'll end up like all these old farts of journalist we got
Injuries don't explain a few ugly tendencies I witnessed every game. Camaleri looks uninterested, Gionta looks older than ever, Plekanec stops skating everytime he gets close to the corners, Gill looks done, Price never steal a game (not his fault, but it is something he has to do from time to time with the talent this team has).

I'm worry about Plekanec. From one of the most underrated player, he's starting to be overrated by habs fans. Beside being great on the PK, the guy is nothing more than a small second line center. He never goes in traffic and never wins a battle along the ramp. And his PK talent is overblown. Every team has such specialist, and the habs had some before him. Every reasonnably talented player can become a PK specialist if he's asked to be one.

I would personnaly contemplate trade offers for Plekanec since his value is higher than it would ever be.

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11-30-2011, 08:15 AM
  #54
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I stopped watching the games because I am busy... but also because I know the Habs won't win the cup with Gomez on the team. I'll see again during the playoffs...

And yes I am totally being "one of those fans" but after 18 yrs of watching most games I am tired of spending so much time on the Habs only to be disappointed all the time (except 2-3 yrs)

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Old
11-30-2011, 08:18 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
My sentiments exactly.

And I'd like to add, of all the major team sports, the NHL is arguably the most competitive (parity). It makes it a whole lot harder to win it.
In this new era of parity, tanking doesn't require gutting a team anymore.

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Old
11-30-2011, 08:34 AM
  #56
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A glimpse of hope...

Gomez gets waived.

LL takes his spot, on the WING.

We now have 3.5 mil to spend on a bandaid.

ZING !


Seriously, they might be testing LL while Gomez is injured. Gauthier and Martin must not be pleased with Gomez, they have to try some things. Since Gauthier can't trade him, and if he waives him there is a hole in our line up, that makes a lot of sense. Trying to find an alternative.

I hope LL shows he can compete in the NHL on the 3rd or 4rth line.

But whatever happens, Gomez needs to be buried. He's just a distraction at this point. 'When is Gomez gonna produce' on everyone's lips. Not good.

As for Plekanec, pretty obvious he's playing hurt. Cammaleri too. I remember Plek getting hit a few games ago, looked in serious pain. He's not playing the same game.

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Old
11-30-2011, 08:39 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Habs13 View Post
All valid points, Mr. Lego. Although, you didn't mention Manchester City as the highest spending team in the EPL currently. Also, you bring up language issues, again, lets back to the EPL in England and look at the coaches there - not all are English first language. Even England's past two National team managers spoke English as a second language so I don't buy this crap where the Habs manager HAS to be a Francophone first and foremost. Who was the last coach of the Habs that wasn't a Francophone as a first language? (It's early in the am, but I can't think of one right now) To me, this is a management error! You draft talanet on a best player availiable basis so why wouldn't you hire your staff the same way? Is it just to keep the journalists happy? If the team is WINNING will the Quebecois fans care what the coach and GM's native tounge is?

I don't believe it ignorant to demand the best for the oldest, most storied franchise in the sport, salary cap or not. All teams deal with the cap - some deal with it well while others don't. We (Habs) have been mediocre for so long that finishing just barely in the playoffs just to last a round, maybe two, recieve a middle-pack draft pick and really mishandle our assests is not only common, but accepted. In short, this is a slow-moving locomotive that is happy to stay the course and continue to squeak into the play-offs and rapidly fizzle out, year after year.

The comparrison to United and the Yankees is that those other teams field the best possible roster under the sun... we get floaters and nothings with superstar salaries, but don't dare say a word against them or the team's management. Money isn't the question. Manchester United do not just go out and buy players - they scout their ***** off and CREATE stars.
notthingham fan myself... <---

like i said, i believe the tradition of only hiring coaches that can speak french will end sooner than later but in the meantime, it is what it is...

i get it, you want to win win win, and now now now. deal with reality: the parity in the NHL is beyond ludicrous and this is not the 70's 80's or 90's. that's not me accepting mediocrity, that's me accepting reality. we are never, neeeeeever going to see another team like the wings from the 90's and the habs from the 70's. the sooner you realize that, the better it will be.

demand the best yes, but accept reality as well.

i'll ***** at management when it is warranted. martin as coach = good. PG as GM = meh. my feelings are he needs to be a bit more proactive but nonetheless, i'd need more time to evaluate and besides, when have we had a healthy roster? most of this roster still isn't his. i'll judge him when it is. i don't spend time worrying about the past, houle was a ******* disaster, that's done, that's the past, let's see what PG can do and he hasn't done badly so far - not great either. takes years for a GM to put his stamp on a team.

patience.

changing both the coach and the GM now wouldn't change much. not a fan of martin but he has done nothing to warrant his dismissal... yet. you gonna fire a guy for having a winning roster with all those injuries?

seriously, stop comparing the habs with united or the yankees. bad, bad comparisons... here's one: if the NHL operated like the premier league, the habs could go and sign every pee-wee player in the province. we'd have a kick-ass team then... and yes. yankees and united, while having an extensive scouting network - and don't kid yourself - do buy the best FAs around ...

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Old
11-30-2011, 09:06 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
what's the difference? The goal is to win games. Good teams do it, bad teams don't, no matter the reasons.
Good teams lose all the time, and bad teams win all the time; this is especially true in a game like hockey, where a team can win less than 60% of its games and still be elite.

Not understanding this (or refusing to acknowledge it) is one of the main reasons mainstream media sports analysis sucks.

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Old
11-30-2011, 09:11 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
Injuries don't explain a few ugly tendencies I witnessed every game. Camaleri looks uninterested, Gionta looks older than ever, Plekanec stops skating everytime he gets close to the corners, Gill looks done, Price never steal a game (not his fault, but it is something he has to do from time to time with the talent this team has).

I'm worry about Plekanec. From one of the most underrated player, he's starting to be overrated by habs fans. Beside being great on the PK, the guy is nothing more than a small second line center. He never goes in traffic and never wins a battle along the ramp. And his PK talent is overblown. Every team has such specialist, and the habs had some before him. Every reasonnably talented player can become a PK specialist if he's asked to be one.

I would personnaly contemplate trade offers for Plekanec since his value is higher than it would ever be.
on pace for close to 70 pts...

on the first wave of the PK unit who has yet to give a goal 4vs5 in the last 3 weeks or so...

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11-30-2011, 09:18 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Good teams lose all the time, and bad teams win all the time; this is especially true in a game like hockey, where a team can win less than 60% of its games and still be elite.

Not understanding this (or refusing to acknowledge it) is one of the main reasons mainstream media sports analysis sucks.
We're far enough into the season that you can't claim our ranking is a statistical fluke. The team is what its stat line shows.

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11-30-2011, 09:21 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Good teams lose all the time, and bad teams win all the time; this is especially true in a game like hockey, where a team can win less than 60% of its games and still be elite.

Not understanding this (or refusing to acknowledge it) is one of the main reasons mainstream media sports analysis sucks.
the difference between a good team and an elite team is something like 1 point (not 1 win, 1 point, like lets say, an OT loss instead of reg time loss) every 9 games or so...

example :
5-2-3 over 10 games = elite
5-3-2 over the same 10 games = average to good team

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11-30-2011, 09:30 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Skarjak View Post
We're far enough into the season that you can't claim our ranking is a statistical fluke. The team is what its stat line shows.
24 games is not a lot. At this stage an elite club with a 60% chance of winning each of its games still has a 21% chance of being .500 or less, and a 5% chance of winning 10 games or less. Figure a club that's merely very good (55%, good for 45 wins) and those probabilities jump to 38% and 13%.

Good teams lose all the time. Heck good teams miss the playoffs and bad teams make them (see: Montreal in 2009-2010). This is the reality of hockey, even if we've been conditioned to ignore that to maintain the romantic notions.

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Old
11-30-2011, 10:08 AM
  #63
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In this new era of parity, tanking doesn't require gutting a team anymore.
But tanking several times still does (Pitts, Chi)

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Old
11-30-2011, 10:16 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
on pace for close to 70 pts...

on the first wave of the PK unit who has yet to give a goal 4vs5 in the last 3 weeks or so...
I know this. What I meant by "overblown" is the importance of his PK play. You can develop a player to be elite in this department, but you can't develop a 90 pts player.

And having close to 70 pts while never going into traffic is closer to a second line player, imo. I think habs would be better with a 90 pts or a 40 goals player while developping Eller on the PK.

I maybe wrong, but I'm tired of always defending Habs' players and Habs' management while watching an average team on the ice.

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11-30-2011, 10:28 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
I know this. What I meant by "overblown" is the importance of his PK play. You can develop a player to be elite in this department, but you can't develop a 90 pts player.

And having close to 70 pts while never going into traffic is closer to a second line player, imo. I think habs would be better with a 90 pts or a 40 goals player while developping Eller on the PK.

I maybe wrong, but I'm tired of always defending Habs' players and Habs' management while watching an average team on the ice.
you're view of players around the league is distorted.

70 points is the norm for first line players
50 points is the norm for second line players
and so on...

don't believe me, check for yourself.

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Old
11-30-2011, 10:54 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
you're view of players around the league is distorted.
I think that's one of the big reasons why we get such skewed evaluations of the Habs.

I think that if you asked most people how many players had, say, 90 points or 35 (let alone 40) goals last season, they would be way off.


Last edited by MathMan: 11-30-2011 at 11:01 AM.
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11-30-2011, 11:22 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Skarjak View Post
We're far enough into the season that you can't claim our ranking is a statistical fluke. The team is what its stat line shows.
Last season, people (like MathMan) who pay attention to underlying stats were saying that New Jersey was not as bad as its record. It took half a season, but they turned out to be right. Sometimes puck luck can impact a team for a lot of games with a one goal difference, it can make or break seasons.

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11-30-2011, 11:48 AM
  #68
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The Habs are six points off the second seed...that is not insurmountable at all.

As for bad luck, look at Boston. They had some bad luck early, then won ten in a row. Did they deserve to win all of them? No...but they had some bad luck early and it evened out in that win streak.

The Habs could potentially stay unlucky - injuries are always the key factor - or they could even out and be a playoff team, probably with some room to spare. I'm betting on the latter.

It's not even December guys, it's way too early to do the usual Montreal freakout and call for everybody to be traded and fired.
They have a team built to win games in bundle. They can play any style and they have solid goaltending. + They have no major injuries in their line up.

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11-30-2011, 12:50 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
you're view of players around the league is distorted.

70 points is the norm for first line players
50 points is the norm for second line players
and so on...

don't believe me, check for yourself.
only 24 players actually hit 70 points or more last year. That's not even an average of 1 per team.

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11-30-2011, 02:49 PM
  #70
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Ok. I'm probably wrong. And i'll try, again, to look at it the way people tell me in this thread, like I try every year.

So Plekanec is perfect as a first line center with "around" 70 points.
So habs play well and are unlucky with injuries.
So Camy is ok. Gionta is ok. Price is Ok. Cole is a great addition. Kosty is OK. Gorges is ok.

Well... That doesn't work. I'm tired of watching this team fighthing for a playoff spot. Everything is not ok and I'm now thinking that the players of this team are seriously overrated.

Plekanec is nothing more than a PK specialist who is average in every other aspect of the game.
Gionta is on the wrong side of its peak.
Gorges has heart but is nothing more than a 4-6 d-man
Price is a good goalie, like there are 10-12 others in the league.
Subban is gold, but people who think he can allready assume #1 duty are dead wrong, and it's not a given that he will be a #1 one day.
Max Pac is a good player, but not a difference maker.
Eller is a good player, but probably won't ever be a true offensive threat. He would be better off developping into the percfect third line center he can be.
The team doesn't have any difference maker, and none is coming.
Desharnais is too easily pushed away from the puck. He would be ok with Cole and Max Pac in a second line role if the team had a true first line.
Even with Markov, the d-men are a really weak group.

If I'm wrong, then I don't understand why the team has such a hard time making the playoffs.

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11-30-2011, 03:33 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
Ok. I'm probably wrong. And i'll try, again, to look at it the way people tell me in this thread, like I try every year.

So Plekanec is perfect as a first line center with "around" 70 points.
So habs play well and are unlucky with injuries.
So Camy is ok. Gionta is ok. Price is Ok. Cole is a great addition. Kosty is OK. Gorges is ok.

Well... That doesn't work. I'm tired of watching this team fighthing for a playoff spot. Everything is not ok and I'm now thinking that the players of this team are seriously overrated.

Plekanec is nothing more than a PK specialist who is average in every other aspect of the game.
Gionta is on the wrong side of its peak.
Gorges has heart but is nothing more than a 4-6 d-man
Price is a good goalie, like there are 10-12 others in the league.
Subban is gold, but people who think he can allready assume #1 duty are dead wrong, and it's not a given that he will be a #1 one day.
Max Pac is a good player, but not a difference maker.
Eller is a good player, but probably won't ever be a true offensive threat. He would be better off developping into the percfect third line center he can be.
The team doesn't have any difference maker, and none is coming.
Desharnais is too easily pushed away from the puck. He would be ok with Cole and Max Pac in a second line role if the team had a true first line.
Even with Markov, the d-men are a really weak group.

If I'm wrong, then I don't understand why the team has such a hard time making the playoffs.
Jesus Christ, hate your team much??

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11-30-2011, 03:38 PM
  #72
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Jesus Christ, hate your team much??
He doesn't. This is reflective of the skewed view that many, many fans have of the club.

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11-30-2011, 04:06 PM
  #73
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He doesn't. This is reflective of the skewed view that many, many fans have of the club.
Then explain their problems.

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Old
11-30-2011, 04:07 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Jesus Christ, hate your team much??
No, I don't hate them, I just think I see them the way they are. I would hate Plekanec if I would see him as a first line center.

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11-30-2011, 04:22 PM
  #75
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Then explain their problems.
Problems? Many, if not most of the "problems" the Habs have are part of the same skewed view. We get repeated that the Habs suck so often that many of us have started accepting it as gospel, without ever comparing to the rest of the league. Look at your list. Subban might never become a #1? He is a #1 D-man right now. Pleky, one of the better two-way centers in the game, is "average in every other aspect of the game"? That's setting the average awfully high, and him being arguably the best PK forward in the league does not automatically make him "a PK specialist". Gorges is only a 4-6 D-man despite thriving in his current #2 role? Price is a 10-12 goalie? MaxPac looks like a 30-goal scorer at age 23, but he's not "a difference-maker"? Do you know how many players score 30 goals regularly?

Or another example: for a team that supposedly has a hard time making the playoffs, they haven't done a whole lot of missing the playoffs over the last few years, now, have they? Certainly they didn't have much trouble last season, despite their lack of puck luck on offense.

Their current position in the standings? Already explained: too many games, they dominated and lost. They've simply ran into more than their share of injuries, hot goalies, and bad luck. Their goal-differential is positive despite this, and only one Eastern team that has scored more goals than their opponents is outside of the playoff picture right now. Their record is simply not representative of the club's strength, even the injury-riddled version we've seen them ice all year.

I can explain in more detail, but whenever I do that my explanations get dismissed without much support, so I'm not sure why I'd bother. Unless you're willing to accept that good hockey teams often lose and bad hockey teams often win, it's hopeless anyway.

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