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Old
11-30-2011, 11:07 AM
  #26
MathMan
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Originally Posted by HarryI View Post
So he now blames the Habs for MAYBE taking Pouliot if he was available?
He spends half the article bashing the Habs for not picking a francophone impact player.

Then he bashes them for almost picking a guy projected to become a francophone impact player. Based on his speculation.

Just so he can insinuate that Timmins is incompetent when he whiffs and incompetent when he hits.

Pretty funny, actually, but sadly typical.

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Old
11-30-2011, 11:19 AM
  #27
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.
He's a french version of Dave Stubbs.
what the hell...

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11-30-2011, 11:32 AM
  #28
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I didnt read his article just like the previous ones.. Old school, not worth reading..

If he is talking about the francos we missed at the draft in the first round, Giroux is really the only one.. could dress a long list of quebecers we have been right to not draft in the first round since 2001..

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11-30-2011, 11:37 AM
  #29
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Gotta sell papers

Facebook likes is more a measure of Raymonds success then any lofty journalistic integrity.

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11-30-2011, 11:44 AM
  #30
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Where the article makes no sense is about the Habs almost picking Pouliot if he would have had the 4th pick. Whether it's true or not, just stick to the facts when you're trying to make a point.

But you know my take on Giroux......And if the article would have been written by somebody else with the main topic that Timmins made a mistake in 2006, most people would have all agreed. 'Cause then, there are counterparts to articles like that. You do have a Mathias Brunet who was and still is often on Timmins side. And there's mostly everywhere in the league who sees the Habs as one of the best overall draft team.

But it is coming from Bertrand Raymond. I'd tell you, Raymond would mention that Jacques Martin is not a good coach, that most people in here who don't like Martin would find a way to bash Raymond. I know, I do that with Réjean Tremblay all the time. I'd want more Quebecers on the team, but I hear Tremblay and he's almost singlehandandly able to change my opinion on the subject 'cause he's so stupid and totally misinformed.

We often hate more the messenger than the message itself. Reason why I also believe that some in here don't like to have more francos in the team it's because it actually pisses off people like Raymond and Tremblay. You know, the same posters who came here to say that they don't mind the language the players speak, yet when a franco is brought up or drafted, that he's there solely to please the franco lovers....

Frankly, what would you prefer? Draft wisely a franco who will happen to be the core of the franchise, or having to deal for him while totally destroying your team and your salary cap in the process to acquire him? I know, here the answer is NEITHER. But the Habs have tried to get Brière and Lecavalier whether you like it or not. Which prooves that at some point, they acknowledge that this is a reality. If so, I'd already suggested that with the tons of money they have, they'd use it on a better and more present scouting group. IN EVERY LEAGUE. Which though also means, in the Q. Don't miss anybody, whether he's from the Q or the other league. But surely don't miss anybody from your backyard based on the fact that you don't have anybody scouting it or you don't have anybody with a STRONG voice scouting it. We have Boisvert now. Yet, he's also responsible for the US. Like 4 other guys or something. I also know that the US are more important nowadays. But like I've said, it's not because you're less important that you don't have your gems as well.

And whether it's from the Q or not, going after Brière and Lecavalier was a proof that we were never able to draft and/or develop a real offensive threat in this team. And the fact that we had to buy ourselves a core in Gomez-Cammy-Gionta are also a proof of it. And when you had the possibility to draft a real offensive threat, you didn't. We missed in 2006. That's all there is to it. You will find out where we gained in other articles. And clearly it won't be written by Raymond but who cares anyway.

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11-30-2011, 11:51 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
I didnt read his article just like the previous ones.. Old school, not worth reading..

If he is talking about the francos we missed at the draft in the first round, Giroux is really the only one.. could dress a long list of quebecers we have been right to not draft in the first round since 2001..
Absolutely true. Even worst, if we would have put our fantasy of having a big tall centerman franco on the team, in 2007, instead of Subban, we would have picked....Kevin Veilleux. By the way, while I had and still have that fantasy....Veilleux was NEVER amongst my choice. If I recall, he was even a ND for me.

Yes, Q are not the only way to go. Never was, never will be. But whether the trend is the US, trends happen to change. And I don't think based on how rich you are and how the draft is THE way to go by everybody admission, that you have the luxury to not be present in a league. From having nobody in that league, to part-time guys who were not that good to begin with, we didn't do a good job at being there. Now with a full time and some Q combines, I guess it's coming. Yet, I don't think that when it's time to talk, the Q is not on everybody's mind. You go with what you know best and what you trust the most.

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Old
11-30-2011, 11:51 AM
  #32
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The Giroux draft hurts for all those reasons and more. The fact that he turned out so well while Fischer will never play a game in the NHL really sucks.

But the draft, in the end, is really a difficult thing to predict. Who's to say that, even if we picked Giroux, that he would have turned out as well with us? You can't just have him switch jerseys and declare that the exact same result would have occurred. There's so many different variables that could make it so that Giroux was the bust and Fischer was the superstar. You never know...

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Old
11-30-2011, 11:52 AM
  #33
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Although I think the article IS slightly unfair, Timmons' drafting (especially) in early rounds definitely has left something to be desired.

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11-30-2011, 11:53 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chewBACHa View Post
this is


"Giroux a été repêché deux rangs plus tard par les Flyers. Cette gaffe est aujourd'hui monstrueuse. Bien sûr, d'autres équipes ont passé leur tour sur Giroux, mais le Canadien, qui n'a pas souvent l'occasion de réclamer un joueur francophone d'impact, n'avait pas le droit de rater pareille occasion."


Giroux was drafted two picks later (reffering about Fisher) by the Flyers. This is now monstrous blunder. Of course, other teams have passed on in turn Giroux, but the Canadian, who has little opportunity to claim a french player speaking of impact, had no right to miss such an opportunity.


later in this article
...

"Si la loterie de la Ligue nationale avait permis au Canadien de profiter du quatrième choix au lieu du cinquième, c'est Benoît Pouliot que l'équipe aurait réclamé. ... Il avait la carrure voulue avec ses six pieds, trois pouces et ses 200 livres. Et il était Francophone.

Dans son évaluation finale, le Canadien n'avait sans doute pas remarqué que Pouliot avait un problème qui se situait entre le coeur et la volonté. Comme quoi les plus petits détails peuvent parfois conduire aux plus grandes erreurs.

L'acquisition de Pouliot aurait fait régresser le Canadien de quelques années. Celle de Price lui permet de vivre d'espoir."


"If the lottery of the National League allowed the Canadians to enjoy the fourth instead of fifth choice is Benoit Pouliot that the team would have claimed. ... He had the stature required with six feet, three inches and 200 pounds. And he was Francophone.

In its final assessment, the Canadian had probably not noticed that Pouliot had a problem that was between the heart and will. Like what the smallest details can sometimes lead to major errors.

The acquisition of Pouliot would have set back the Canadian a few years. Price of one that permits a life of hope"
The most ridiculous part is taht he makes it seem like Giroux was seen as a future star when most teams had him much lower than where Montreal and Phillie were drafting. Bobby Clarke didn't even know his ******* name...it's not like he was that year's Lecavalier or Lemieux and everybody knew he was going to be a star.

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Old
11-30-2011, 11:57 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
The Giroux draft hurts for all those reasons and more. The fact that he turned out so well while Fischer will never play a game in the NHL really sucks.

But the draft, in the end, is really a difficult thing to predict. Who's to say that, even if we picked Giroux, that he would have turned out as well with us? You can't just have him switch jerseys and declare that the exact same result would have occurred. There's so many different variables that could make it so that Giroux was the bust and Fischer was the superstar. You never know...
Problem with that theory is that I keep reading it for everybody. From Getzlaf, to Carter, to Giroux to everyone. What's wrong with a team who would have never be able to make those players succeed?

Besides, Giroux is actually playing like a top 10 player in this league and I'm generous. So even if he would not be that way with a coach like Martin, he'd still be playing in the league. And at worst, like a 2nd liner. Nothing wrong with that.

Yet again, the only thing we can look is the end-result. We chose Grabovski. People thought he sucked. Now he's playing great. It goes back to how great Timmins was. SKost etc.....Goes always back to how Timmins was able to find those gems later on. But I can't even say that those are just 2 example of players that didn't work here. They didn't have their chance to get their confidence. Add a little cockyness and stupidity, add some bad evaluations, and it didn't worked out. But goes back to my premise......if those guys never work out here....who will? And why wouldn't they work out?

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Old
11-30-2011, 12:00 PM
  #36
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Bertrand Raymond writes articles with a deadline like a historian's--years after the fact--not that of a journalist. He keeps harping about the selection of Fischer instead of Giroux. By now that's as passé as a fish that was thrown in the garbage and by now has totally decomposed.

Raymond is a hypocrite when he chastises Timmins retrospectively for his intention of drafting Benoit Pouliot if the Habs had drawn #4 instead of #5 in the 2005 lottery. Ironically, he probably would have applauded that choice at the time. I'm sure he loathed the choice of Carey Price at #5 because there were loads of 18-year-olds named Jean or Pierre or Normand to choose from.

If Raymond had lived 200 years ago he probably would have rooted for Napoleon Bonaparte. In my fantasy game Raymond would practice cannibalism, starting with his own body parts, until there's nothing left but his big mouth.

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Old
11-30-2011, 12:02 PM
  #37
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The most ridiculous part is taht he makes it seem like Giroux was seen as a future star when most teams had him much lower than where Montreal and Phillie were drafting. Bobby Clarke didn't even know his ******* name...it's not like he was that year's Lecavalier or Lemieux and everybody knew he was going to be a star.
Nobody thought he was a top 5 pick in the draft. But this is the year when we had the 16th pick if you remember. And at 16, we decided to move down. Would you do that every year? Moving down at 16? For a guy at 20 you picked that you called a Total project as raw as you can get? If so....why not a goal scorer like Giroux in that case. If you go for boom or bust player.....why not a boom or bust scorer? But they decided to go for Fischer amongst a few things because they had decided that needs was the #1 priority as much as people in here are ALWAYS saying it's not a good approach. 2006 and 2007 were to replenish the D squad. And while, to be honeset, I'm not exactly totally against needs ('cause of my big centerman I keep asking and still waiting...), you also happen to miss a few guys.

Would be nice to kinda of have a talk with Timmins and see what his approach was and all. Just his reflection at the draft. I guess we'll have to wait till he's gone before asking him.....just sad....

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Old
11-30-2011, 12:05 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Problem with that theory is that I keep reading it for everybody. From Getzlaf, to Carter, to Giroux to everyone. What's wrong with a team who would have never be able to make those players succeed?

Besides, Giroux is actually playing like a top 10 player in this league and I'm generous. So even if he would not be that way with a coach like Martin, he'd still be playing in the league. And at worst, like a 2nd liner. Nothing wrong with that.

Yet again, the only thing we can look is the end-result. We chose Grabovski. People thought he sucked. Now he's playing great. It goes back to how great Timmins was. SKost etc.....Goes always back to how Timmins was able to find those gems later on. But I can't even say that those are just 2 example of players that didn't work here. They didn't have their chance to get their confidence. Add a little cockyness and stupidity, add some bad evaluations, and it didn't worked out. But goes back to my premise......if those guys never work out here....who will? And why wouldn't they work out?
Hold up.

I did not say that these guys would not succeed in Montreal. I merely said that it wasn't guaranteed. These guys are all immensely talented. I actually think Getzlaf is one of those guys who would've done well regardless of where he was drafted.

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Old
11-30-2011, 12:06 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Bertrand Raymond writes articles with a deadline like a historian's--years after the fact--not that of a journalist. He keeps harping about the selection of Fischer instead of Giroux. By now that's as passé as a fish that was thrown in the garbage and by now has totally decomposed.

Raymond is a hypocrite when he chastises Timmins retrospectively for his intention of drafting Benoit Pouliot if the Habs had drawn #4 instead of #5 in the 2005 lottery. Ironically, he probably would have applauded that choice at the time. I'm sure he loathed the choice of Carey Price at #5 because there were loads of 18-year-olds named Jean or Pierre or Normand to choose from.

If Raymond had lived 200 years ago he probably would have rooted for Napoleon Bonaparte. In my fantasy game Raymond would practice cannibalism, starting with his own body parts, until there's nothing left but his big mouth.
While I have my own idea on Giroux, I totally agree with your assessment. Same applies with Tremblay. They actually have no ideas who those guys were at the time. And still have to wait till the guy's does good or not to actually have an opinion of the subject. While I do not always entirely agree with my friend Mathias, that's why he will always be way more respectable than any of those guys. So it has to be clear. I'm able to have my own ideas whether it's a good or a bad move. But in no way to I agree with how whether it's Raymond or Tremblay end up doing their job.

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11-30-2011, 12:15 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
Although I think the article IS slightly unfair, Timmons' drafting (especially) in early rounds definitely has left something to be desired.
Pernell Karl Subban.

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Old
11-30-2011, 12:18 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Nobody thought he was a top 5 pick in the draft. But this is the year when we had the 16th pick if you remember. And at 16, we decided to move down. Would you do that every year? Moving down at 16? For a guy at 20 you picked that you called a Total project as raw as you can get? If so....why not a goal scorer like Giroux in that case. If you go for boom or bust player.....why not a boom or bust scorer? But they decided to go for Fischer amongst a few things because they had decided that needs was the #1 priority as much as people in here are ALWAYS saying it's not a good approach. 2006 and 2007 were to replenish the D squad. And while, to be honeset, I'm not exactly totally against needs ('cause of my big centerman I keep asking and still waiting...), you also happen to miss a few guys.

Would be nice to kinda of have a talk with Timmins and see what his approach was and all. Just his reflection at the draft. I guess we'll have to wait till he's gone before asking him.....just sad....
If the Habs were terribly concerned about building up their defense in 2006, why would they trade down? Why not the best Dman? Of course they received something for moving down, which gave them an extra pick, but I would have gone for quality over quantity. I had Meszaros in mind atthe time. As for a big center, I presume the Habs brain trust thought they already had their man in Chipchura from the 2004 draft (a pick better than that of Fischer but not awe inspiring).

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11-30-2011, 12:24 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
If the Habs were terribly concerned about building up their defense in 2006, why would they trade down? Why not the best Dman? Of course they received something for moving down, which gave them an extra pick, but I would have gone for quality over quantity. As for a big center, I presume the Habs brain trust thought they already had their man in Chipchura from the 2004 draft (a pick better than that of Fischer but not awe inspiring).
Instead of Chipchura I had Meszaros in mind a the time.

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11-30-2011, 12:25 PM
  #43
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Ok so we would have drafted Giroux, a 5'11'' center while we had, Ribeiro, Koivu and pleckanec in the system who are all 5'11'' centermen....yeah right.

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11-30-2011, 12:29 PM
  #44
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Reminds me that Xmas is coming soon and that I will have to debate all that crap with family members who are brainwashed by those dumb ânes who call themselves journalists...

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11-30-2011, 12:31 PM
  #45
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I can't wait for the Nordiques to return so Raymond can have his bromance with them instead of pretending to care about covering the HABS

Quote:
Originally Posted by nittany View Post
Although I think the article IS slightly unfair, Timmons' drafting (especially) in early rounds definitely has left something to be desired.
He really has a hard time finding solid upper end talent sometimes (most of the time, McDonagh Subban and Pacioretty aside), it's like there is too much for him to focus on. At the time Fisher seemed like a fairly safe pick. But I don't think we should be gambling a 1st or 2nd rd pick on a high school player.


And Bertrand Raymond seems to omit that a Centreman that would have made a better choice than Giroux at the time based on our needs would have been Berglund...but hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good imagined Habs are anti-francophone story.


Last edited by Mike8: 11-30-2011 at 07:21 PM.
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11-30-2011, 12:33 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
While I have my own idea on Giroux, I totally agree with your assessment. Same applies with Tremblay. They actually have no ideas who those guys were at the time. And still have to wait till the guy's does good or not to actually have an opinion of the subject. While I do not always entirely agree with my friend Mathias, that's why he will always be way more respectable than any of those guys. So it has to be clear. I'm able to have my own ideas whether it's a good or a bad move. But in no way to I agree with how whether it's Raymond or Tremblay end up doing their job.
Bertrand Raymond and Réjean Tremblay have strong chauvinist leanings that turn my stomach.The big difference between them is that Tremblay is more intelligent and a better writer. At least I give one devil his due.

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11-30-2011, 12:35 PM
  #47
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Pernell Karl Subban.
Max Pacioretty. Ryan McDonagh.

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Old
11-30-2011, 12:39 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by FF de Mars View Post
Reminds me that Xmas is coming soon and that I will have to debate all that crap with family members who are brainwashed by those dumb ânes who call themselves journalists...
Whe that happens, I usually just say i don't follow hockey. Even though I've played for fifteen years and that almost every year I get something related to the Habs. I think they get it by now lol.

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Old
11-30-2011, 12:40 PM
  #49
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Pernell Karl Subban.
oh, you mean the most hated, disrespectful good for nothing dman in the NHL....I can't believe he was picked before a good ol' Quebequois Dman












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11-30-2011, 12:42 PM
  #50
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Max Pacioretty. Ryan McDonagh.
with PK and Weber, made for a great draft year. Add in Stejskal and Conboy who could turn into solid depth players in the NHL from late rounds 2007 was probably the deepest in terms of Timmons picks

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