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Game 23. 11/29/2011. St. Louis Blues at Washington Capitals. 7pm

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11-30-2011, 09:50 AM
  #626
RandyHolt
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I dont think we have tried it at home. Again, as flat as he and the team looked, it was just an idea.

I can't fully wrap my brain around why we are so green dependent. Sure, he was a Norris candidate, a scoring machine, that chose to morph his game into a more sound defensive game. Yet, he was never in our shutdown pairing, oddly, if his defensive game was that good. He doesnt score hardly at all anymore, something he does when I think he is at his best. Add in that we have Gross err Wideman to help fill his shoes, who is no slouch. Carlson may be the one that is missing Green the most, but Bruce had been loading up his plate with top opposition in a shutdown role.

So it comes down to puck moving, right? How have Wides Carlson Alzner Hammer Sarge and the boys, managed to keep jobs, if they can't make a simple outlet pass? Fact is, they can and do. Some can skate too. Do we need Green for his D? Most those guys all got to where they are by playing D.

Maybe there is some intangible.


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11-30-2011, 09:52 AM
  #627
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I also agree (as should everyone) that the D without Green is horrible this year.
i think what is the most clear is that the caps were successful last season because they had that odd sitution where rookie carlson and not a rookie by technicality alzner were an outstanding shutdown pair. this season alzner seems pretty steady, but carlson is having the sophmore slump and there's not doubt about that. as long as green was playing wideman was outstanding in a secondary role and created stats that looked like a primary role.

without green and with carlson trying to find his foundation, the caps are really stuck. it goes right back to the whole puck moving defenseman thing. in this league you dont get far without them.

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11-30-2011, 09:58 AM
  #628
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
I dont think we have tried it at home. Again, as flat as he and the team looked, it was just an idea.

I can't fully wrap my brain around why we are so green dependent. Sure, he was a Norris candidate, a scoring machine, that chose to morph his game into a more sound defensive game. Yet, he was never in our shutdown pairing, oddly, if his defensive game was that good. He doesnt score hardly at all anymore, something he does when I think he is at his best. Add in that we have Gross err Wideman to help fill his shoes, who is no slouch. Carlson may be the one that is missing Green the most, but Bruce had been loading up his plate with top opposition in a shutdown role.

So it comes down to puck moving, right? How have Wides Carlson Alzner Hammer Sarge and the boys, managed to keep jobs, if they can't make a simple outlet pass? Fact is, they can and do. Do we need Green for his D? Most those guys all got to where they are by playing D.

Maybe there is some intangible.
RH, a lot of people dont get the mike green effect. they talk about him jumping into the play and so forth. jumping into the play is what the standard issue puck moving/offensive defenseman does. green creates the play. he ignites the play. he can be the entire play. he does things offensively that no other nhl defenseman is capable of doing.

somebody here recently was talking about how many pucks have been dumped into jeff schultz corner and how successful that has been. when mike green is out there, green is the target. that protects schultz.

green never gets credit for his main basic ability. he is about the fastest and most explosive from the first step defenseman in the league. he wins races to loose pucks that dont look like races but would be for carlson and wideman. that speed ripples right thru the play. he fills open ice that no other defenseman can fill he is to the caps what darrell green was to the redskins. its speed and the power that comes with speed. rh, you know how hard mike green hits.

this is all parts of the reason why i laugh when some talk about ditching him. be careful what you wish for.

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11-30-2011, 10:22 AM
  #629
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A1 first step, good stuff Tex.

Still at his best, he plays much less than half a game. Taking away PP's, he is under 20 TOI most nights. The Mike Green drop off should not be limited to when he is out of the lineup, exclusively, if all the other guys have a lame duck first step (something I tend to doubt). Carlson and Karl wouldnt have been above him in plus minus last year, if The Green Effect is that pronounced, right?

It may be that when he is in the lineup, he is the target. So teams kill themselves trying to kill him, distracting themselves from winning. I dunno, but a team cannot depend on one Dman. Didnt we do just fine when Wideman came on board, Green out last spring?

It would be telling to see a stat that tracks average amount of time spent in D zone by D men.

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11-30-2011, 10:42 AM
  #630
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That quickness is why I laugh about hating him on the PK. Yeah he's not going to shove guys around. His position and stick may not be to the top. But if the puck is free, he's on it. And that is just as important part of pk as any.

What the loss of Green has shown is our inability to execute a breakout. The phrase "one man breakout" is true, to some extent, as they relied on him heavily to beat the first forechecker. Something none of our guys do. As soon as that happens, we had numbers through the neutral zone and can forecheck.

Now we have garbage... Now it takes a TEAM. And to me this is number one priority of DH/Johnson. Get these guys working together on small passes with speed.

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11-30-2011, 11:28 AM
  #631
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
i think what is the most clear is that the caps were successful last season because they had that odd sitution where rookie carlson and not a rookie by technicality alzner were an outstanding shutdown pair. this season alzner seems pretty steady, but carlson is having the sophmore slump and there's not doubt about that. as long as green was playing wideman was outstanding in a secondary role and created stats that looked like a primary role.

without green and with carlson trying to find his foundation, the caps are really stuck. it goes right back to the whole puck moving defenseman thing. in this league you dont get far without them.
Not sure I entirely agree with this. Seems to me we have plenty of guys who can move the puck well even when Green isn't playing. Carlson is slumping.

I think the D need to do a better job at shutting down the opposition cycle in our own zone by being more physical along the boards and not sucking in one on one battles. Do we have the D that can do this? Not sure.

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11-30-2011, 12:14 PM
  #632
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the effort and battle was there last night. next needs to come better play within the scheme. if we get that far, then we need to know if the talent can put all those things together in order to win tough playoff series.

i doubt the latter based on personnel, but im willing to give it a chance. the problem before was that the caps couldnt even get past the first stage.

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11-30-2011, 12:16 PM
  #633
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I don't buy for a second that they're incapable of a decent transition game without Green.

Green executes the breakout through great passing, but more often through his great skating. Lugging the puck up ice works, but it masks the broader transition problems-namely that the forwards don't even skate, let alone put themselves in a position to help their dmen.

Carlson was third in the league in ESA last year, Wideman has been top 30 in that category twice. They are capable of making smart passes, but not without a team effort.

Green is great, but he's not the salve he's made out to be; he's a very effective bandaid on a much bigger problem.

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11-30-2011, 12:25 PM
  #634
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Amen bcf. I hope I conveyed my feelings on that as well.

It's why "injuries matter" is both true and false. It matters when you rely in individualistic skill. But it shouldn't matter if you're a cohesive unit.

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11-30-2011, 12:50 PM
  #635
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I don't buy for a second that they're incapable of a decent transition game without Green.

Green executes the breakout through great passing, but more often through his great skating. Lugging the puck up ice works, but it masks the broader transition problems-namely that the forwards don't even skate, let alone put themselves in a position to help their dmen.

Carlson was third in the league in ESA last year, Wideman has been top 30 in that category twice. They are capable of making smart passes, but not without a team effort.

Green is great, but he's not the salve he's made out to be; he's a very effective bandaid on a much bigger problem.
Winner.

29 teams in this league play without Mike Green every night. Puck support. Team play. Sound fundamental hockey. All of these are more important than any one player. If you have those AND a Mike Green, all the better.

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11-30-2011, 12:52 PM
  #636
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I went to Kettle, what a hoot. The AV club always makes me laugh, its like the AV club from high school, they all look the same. Katie chomping the gum. The autograph seekers doing their thing, nothing audible behind the gate, standing there like a dork. I just wanted to talk to Dale but he went back into the locker room.

Then the interview with Brooks L... .err Jim Johnson started. He seemed like a very personable guy, and later introduced himself to all the media. Katie melted. I am kidding. Olaf came out and talked to the fans for a few minutes, he looked good. I pulled a Michael Bolten back to the office.


So we are dependent on Green (i think the record shows it), but only because he is one of our best at being an individual.

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11-30-2011, 01:00 PM
  #637
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@SWhyno
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#Caps beat writers already love Jim Johnson, who's a tactician & great talker. Fans will also love his speed and pressure defense.

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11-30-2011, 01:08 PM
  #638
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@SWhyno
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#Caps beat writers already love Jim Johnson, who's a tactician & great talker. Fans will also love his speed and pressure defense.
Speed and pressure eh?

Hamrlik and Schultz should fit right in!


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11-30-2011, 01:09 PM
  #639
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Wasn't Boudreau's system originally predicated on speed and pressure?

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11-30-2011, 01:10 PM
  #640
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Wasn't Boudreau's system originally predicated on speed and pressure?
Touche.

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11-30-2011, 01:11 PM
  #641
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Wasn't Boudreau's system originally predicated on speed and pressure?
Not on D.

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11-30-2011, 01:13 PM
  #642
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Not on D.
It was a rhetorical question. The correct answer is 'Yes'. It's even in his book. His philosophy is speed and pressure all over the ice. Hunter and Johnson will learn soon enough that it's not possible with the current defensive personnel.

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11-30-2011, 01:18 PM
  #643
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Not on D.
It was. It was very aggressive at both bluelines, which required speed and skill.

To be fair I saw nothing remotely resembling that in the past 12 months or so.

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11-30-2011, 01:18 PM
  #644
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Wasn't Boudreau's system originally predicated on speed and pressure?
On D it looked like it was predicated on giving up 2 on 1s and 3 on 2s.

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11-30-2011, 06:43 PM
  #645
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Schultz gets traded, becomes Bobby Orr, Halpysback complains BB held back Schultz's development back.
That's completely disingenious and you know it. Now if Semin gets traded and becomes one of the league's best defensemen that's another story.

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