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Old
11-30-2011, 02:17 PM
  #376
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You know what would be better? If he didn't make stupid-as-hell mistakes in the first place.

Do tell...how has he fixed the Shelley signing? The Leighton signing, how did he correct that last year? Losing Knuble? Since he left, Knuble has been better than many players on this team and he still is, having him would be better than NOT having him.

Has he fixed the lacking defensive ability of our forward corps after losing Lappy and Betts, and dropping Powe, Carter, Richards and Gagne? No, he hasn't. If anything he's made the situation a bit worse by giving away a player who has established himself as being defensively responsible on the NHL level.

You might be perfectly OK with the GM of your sports team repeatedly making dumb mistakes, and often repeating those mistakes. I'm not. It hurts the team, and that isn't acceptable. Just because he also makes good moves doesn't mean the stupidity doesn't drag the team down as well.
Every single team/GM makes mistakes...luck factors into it too. Some guys get hurt and they are not the same after getting a large contract, ect. It's your opinion PH should be canned for a better (whoever that is) option?

Some of the D situation is on the coach. Lacking D players you may need to not be as forcheck agressive ect...it's also a young roster with alot of new faces so that d play may take some time.

I wouldn't mind it if Knuble was still here. In some ways, I see why he's not.
I didn't like Shelley or leighton ...at all. I wanted asham.
I don't think either move prevented us from winning the cup.

I'm def ok with what the flyers put on the ice.

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11-30-2011, 02:20 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You know what would be better? If he didn't make stupid-as-hell mistakes in the first place.

Do tell...how has he fixed the Shelley signing? The Leighton signing, how did he correct that last year? Losing Knuble? Since he left, Knuble has been better than many players on this team and he still is, having him would be better than NOT having him.

Has he fixed the lacking defensive ability of our forward corps after losing Lappy and Betts, and dropping Powe, Carter, Richards and Gagne? No, he hasn't. If anything he's made the situation a bit worse by giving away a player who has established himself as being defensively responsible on the NHL level.

You might be perfectly OK with the GM of your sports team repeatedly making dumb mistakes, and often repeating those mistakes. I'm not. It hurts the team, and that isn't acceptable. Just because he also makes good moves doesn't mean the stupidity doesn't drag the team down as well.
Okay i'm going to take a shot at this.

First Bold-Homer feels as there is no need to "fix" the Shelley signing. The Flyers always feel a need for a heavyweight playing in our division. They will keep him as long as that they feel he is needed. Leighton wasn't a huge mistake, as he is in the AHL and he has to be providing advice and guidance to the players down there. He has to be able to give them advice on what it takes to be an NHL player because he, believe it or not at one time, was an NHL player. Mike Knuble was a casuality of the salary cap. The Flyers offered him two years at 2 million and he got a better deal from Washington. This doesn't just happen to the Flyers, it happens to every team. also Knuble hasn't won a championship with Washington(supposedly a better team then us), so maybe the lose wasn't that big. To be clear they didn't want to pay him as much as he wanted. Now we have a very younger Knuble-esq player in simmonds.

Second Bold- He went out and signed one of the better penatly killers and third line defensive forward name Max Talbot. I also believe he is looking with-in the organization for players to step up in the absence of those key players you named. Giroux, JVR, Harry Z, Simmonds, Hartnell, are looked upon to carry more weight for this team. Every organization does this also. Giroux is getting better and better in his own zone as every game goes on. Talbot is exactly what Lappy and Betts brings to the table, but with more offense(Better player)

Third Bold- Every teams GM makes mistakes. Did Ken Holland get this much **** for him losing Leino for OKT? No, because the Red Wings fan base understands move must just be made sometime for the sake of the player and the organization. Homer losing Nodl(shiny quarter) for nothing wasn't a bad move. He is playing 6-8 minutes a game for the flyers and played 8 mins for Carolina(only one game). He just isn't the same player he was last year. I have said it before, since that concussion he got last year he is a very cautious player now.

One last thing... This Flyers team is 13-7-3. They are one of the better teams in the East even after a serious shake-up. Homer and other Flyers top management felt that Richy and Carter were not gonna get them back to the Cup(for whatever reason) for a chance at glory. The Chicago Blackhawks are one win ahead of us with two games in hand, and are being praised because of how good of a team they are. We as a fan base have been way to knit picky with all the tiny things that Management has done and haven't looked at the bigger picture. This team is still a contender and only getting better! They are that way because of Paul Holmgren, we seem to forget that.

Also Anson ****ing Carter last night was talking about Ottawa and how they were disorganized in their own zone among the forwards(because of the youth). The Flyers are running a very young team up front and this is gonna happen. Every team has break downs and turnovers, but we just have to keep practicing to get better and minimizing these plays. As the season goes on this team will get better in its own zone, especially with everyone healthy and playing at the level they are supposed too.

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11-30-2011, 02:21 PM
  #378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
Every single team/GM makes mistakes...luck factors into it too. Some guys get hurt and they are not the same after getting a large contract, ect. It's your opinion PH should be canned for a better (whoever that is) option?

Some of the D situation is on the coach. Lacking D players you may need to not be as forcheck agressive ect...it's also a young roster with alot of new faces so that d play may take some time.

I wouldn't mind it if Knuble was still here. In some ways, I see why he's not.
I didn't like Shelley or leighton ...at all. I wanted asham.
I don't think either move prevented us from winning the cup.

I'm def ok with what the flyers put on the ice.
Every team/GM makes mistakes, but few repeat them as often as Holmgren, and most GMs seem to have more foresight than Holmgren.

I'm not fine with what the Flyers put on the ice. It could be better, but isn't because Homer has taken the team backwards two offseasons in a row.

Perhaps it could be better in the future...if the defense can be fixed when it all collapses, which will be soon.

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11-30-2011, 02:25 PM
  #379
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To continue your business analogy, just turning a profit isn't enough. Your goal is to maximize your profit. In order to do this, you need to get take care of your assets, and somehow use them to your advantage. Just letting one go without getting anything back when that asset itself is still serviceable isn't doing this.
All true. Nobody gets this right all the time. nobody.

I just threw away (recycled) an 8 year old working printer. I might have gotten 5 bucks for it on eBay... I'm good with my decision though.

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11-30-2011, 02:36 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Every team/GM makes mistakes, but few repeat them as often as Holmgren, and most GMs seem to have more foresight than Holmgren.

I'm not fine with what the Flyers put on the ice. It could be better, but isn't because Homer has taken the team backwards two offseasons in a row.

Perhaps it could be better in the future...if the defense can be fixed when it all collapses, which will be soon.
It's all good mate. I'm here with Andy Reid and the eagles....

I see the flyers taking a lateral move, but getting some good young talent to grow with. I'm excited about this.... We've got looming issues on D...but I think we can fix that. This is why i don't want bobby Ryan with Schenn/Couts going back. If those guys are moved its got to be for top D...IMO...it's not a reflection of Ryan either....

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11-30-2011, 02:43 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
Okay i'm going to take a shot at this.

First Bold-Homer feels as there is no need to "fix" the Shelley signing. The Flyers always feel a need for a heavyweight playing in our division. They will keep him as long as that they feel he is needed. Leighton wasn't a huge mistake, as he is in the AHL and he has to be providing advice and guidance to the players down there. He has to be able to give them advice on what it takes to be an NHL player because he, believe it or not at one time, was an NHL player. Mike Knuble was a casuality of the salary cap. The Flyers offered him two years at 2 million and he got a better deal from Washington. This doesn't just happen to the Flyers, it happens to every team. also Knuble hasn't won a championship with Washington(supposedly a better team then us), so maybe the lose wasn't that big. To be clear they didn't want to pay him as much as he wanted. Now we have a very younger Knuble-esq player in simmonds.

Second Bold- He went out and signed one of the better penatly killers and third line defensive forward name Max Talbot. I also believe he is looking with-in the organization for players to step up in the absence of those key players you named. Giroux, JVR, Harry Z, Simmonds, Hartnell, are looked upon to carry more weight for this team. Every organization does this also. Giroux is getting better and better in his own zone as every game goes on. Talbot is exactly what Lappy and Betts brings to the table, but with more offense(Better player)

Third Bold- Every teams GM makes mistakes. Did Ken Holland get this much **** for him losing Leino for OKT? No, because the Red Wings fan base understands move must just be made sometime for the sake of the player and the organization. Homer losing Nodl(shiny quarter) for nothing wasn't a bad move. He is playing 6-8 minutes a game for the flyers and played 8 mins for Carolina(only one game). He just isn't the same player he was last year. I have said it before, since that concussion he got last year he is a very cautious player now.

One last thing... This Flyers team is 13-7-3. They are one of the better teams in the East even after a serious shake-up. Homer and other Flyers top management felt that Richy and Carter were not gonna get them back to the Cup(for whatever reason) for a chance at glory. The Chicago Blackhawks are one win ahead of us with two games in hand, and are being praised because of how good of a team they are. We as a fan base have been way to knit picky with all the tiny things that Management has done and haven't looked at the bigger picture. This team is still a contender and only getting better! They are that way because of Paul Holmgren, we seem to forget that.
1) Leighton WAS a huge mistake. He was overpaid, and he was meant to be part of some sort of weird tandem with Boosh. The team went to the Finals...all they needed was a real goaltender and a bolstering of the 3rd pairing, and Homer utterly failed to upgrade over MFL...upgrading over Leighton truly wouldn't have been difficult, either. Knuble was a cap casualty BECAUSE Homer was/is crap at managing the cap. The Shelley signing is bad because it's more cap mismanagement by Holmgre. A 3 year contract at that cap hit for a washed up enforcer playing 4 minutes or less a night (when he isn't scratched) who serves no purpose in the playoffs is flat-out bad cap and asset management. Why not just keep Asham, who could have done the exact same job much better?

2) Talbot and Couturier are the only two players who do anything to make up for the loss of all the defensive talent. Simmonds, Voracek, Harry Z, Rinaldo, and Read are all downgrades. Hartnell, JVR, and Giroux aren't making up for anything that was lost--they aren't additions this offseason. All they're doing is filling their own slots. By the way, Giroux's defense this year has looked noticeably worse now that he isn't playing alongside Carter in his own end. Hell, Jagr has better numbers. Hartnell has the best defensive numbers on that line so far.

3) The Flyers have lost to pretty much every good team they've played, save Boston while that team was off to a cold start. They've been incredibly inconsistent and team defense has been worse overall. I struggle to see them beating TB, Pitt, Boston, or possibly even Washington or NJ in the playoffs, especially towards the end of the season when guys like Read (who has been very relied upon) and Timonen (Who is set to get worked like a hated farmhorse over the next 4 weeks) are wearing out. Defense matters in the playoffs, and the Flyers don't have the personnel. On top of that it seems they have a starting goalie who relies heavily on the performance of his own team in their end...not a good combination. My prediction before the season was that this team would get off to a hot start, what with all the excitement of new players on the team and rookies giving it their all, before sliding off in the second half. I haven't seen anything yet that suggests that won't be the case, and the wild inconsistency this team has shown so far doesn't make me feel any better about it.

As for Chicago fans, you might want to stop by the forum. They most certainly are being nitpicky. Chicago doesn't have a crapload of rookies, either. When Schenn returns we will have FIVE in the lineup. In the long run that rarely works out.

Edit: Also, I don't want Holmgren to be replaced. Not yet, at least. I just want him to stop making sloppy, completely avoidable mistakes left and right. It's his job to give the team the best possible chance to win, now and in the future, and he doesn't necessarily do that.

Edit 2: As for Leino...Detroit didn't just waive him when he was struggling and give him away for free. They at least got something for him...despite being up against the cap and needing to move him. That's completely different from what Homer did with Nodl...he just gave him away for nothing. We got zilch in return, unlike Detroit.

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11-30-2011, 02:44 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
It's all good mate. I'm here with Andy Reid and the eagles....

I see the flyers taking a lateral move, but getting some good young talent to grow with. I'm excited about this.... We've got looming issues on D...but I think we can fix that. This is why i don't want bobby Ryan with Schenn/Couts going back. If those guys are moved its got to be for top D...IMO...it's not a reflection of Ryan either....
I haven't weighed in on the Ryan thingy yet...but yeah, I'd much rather have them acquire defense.

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11-30-2011, 02:56 PM
  #383
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I voiced my opinion you have voiced yours. Obviously we aren't going to convince each other who has better points. I agree to disagree and expect my poop in the mail in protest again from you Beef. As long as the Flyers are winning and going in the right direction, i'm happy with the team

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11-30-2011, 02:59 PM
  #384
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I voiced my opinion you have voiced yours. Obviously we aren't going to convince each other who has better points. I agree to disagree and expect my poop in the mail in protest again from you Beef. As long as the Flyers are winning and going in the right direction, i'm happy with the team
You're going to have to pay postage this time. Post Office just raised their rates.

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11-30-2011, 03:07 PM
  #385
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Lol...it's been so fun though. I'm never thinking of quarters or soap the same way.

Was there a thread like this when "we let go of Dan Carcillo for nothing"?

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11-30-2011, 03:16 PM
  #386
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Dan Carcillo was terrible. Other then the handful of fanboys who actually thought he could play in the top 9, no one here liked him.

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11-30-2011, 03:18 PM
  #387
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Lol...it's been so fun though. I'm never thinking of quarters or soap the same way.

Was there a thread like this when "we let go of Dan Carcillo for nothing"?
His contract ran out. We didn't give him away. There's a difference.

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11-30-2011, 03:18 PM
  #388
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Lol...it's been so fun though. I'm never thinking of quarters or soap the same way.

Was there a thread like this when "we let go of Dan Carcillo for nothing"?
Carcillo was a free agent. Nodl was a player we JUST re-signed. He was our property. Big difference between choosing not to sign someone and placing somebody on waivers to "gauge interest" and then losing him.

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11-30-2011, 03:25 PM
  #389
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Dan was still a RFA. We chose not to tender him, thus UFA. He got "the Nodl treatment" in a different way.

Lol I know it's semantics, but his rights were ours if we wanted him.

http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/players/...aniel-carcillo

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11-30-2011, 03:31 PM
  #390
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Dan was still a RFA. We chose not to tender him, thus UFA. He got "the Nodl treatment" in a different way.

Lol I know it's semantics, but his rights were ours if we wanted him.

http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/players/...aniel-carcillo
At that time Carcillo was worth less than Nodl as well.

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11-30-2011, 03:34 PM
  #391
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At that time Carcillo was worth less than Nodl as well.
I agree, I'm glad they let him go, Rinaldo in 20 games has been all the grit with alot less stupidity.

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11-30-2011, 10:55 PM
  #392
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Lol...it's been so fun though. I'm never thinking of quarters or soap the same way.

Was there a thread like this when "we let go of Dan Carcillo for nothing"?
Yes. That was a "plugged nickel" analogy-filled thread.

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12-01-2011, 04:37 AM
  #393
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This is really such a pointless debate, we might as well be debating politics or abortion or something haha.

Those of you that think Nodl is worthless will never be convinced that it is mis-managing assets. To you, Nodl is a penny you drop on the sidewalk and nothing more.

Then there are those, like myself, that view every single player, every single dollar, and every single draft pick as an asset; and giving away any of them, unless there is no other option, is a failure.

If you are running a company, you don't just brush wasted dollars under the rug. Your job is to run the company. You trim the fat, you reduce your operating expenses and be as efficient as possible. I believe that is how a hockey team should be run as well. If I continually waste dollars (assets), I'd expect my board of directors to kick me to the curb.
Based on scarcity, a contract spot, one of only fifty, is also an asset. You can see losing Nödl on waivers also as trading Nödl for an open contract spot.

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12-01-2011, 06:30 AM
  #394
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It doesn't matter that Nodl is easily replaced. That isn't the issue. The issue is that Holmgren got nothing in return for him, which is not a new phenomenon. For a team that loves trading away all its picks, we should be seeking to get some back whenever and however we can. Nodl is certainly worth a pick...instead, we got nothing.
what pick is he worth?

If he were worth something he would've gotten something. He's a bubble AHL/NHLer who's decent defensively with stone hands. I don't really understand the outrage or what people perceive his value to be? They have 4-5 guys that can play his role on the Phantoms and many, many other teams are in the same boat.

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12-01-2011, 06:35 AM
  #395
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This is really such a pointless debate, we might as well be debating politics or abortion or something haha.

Those of you that think Nodl is worthless will never be convinced that it is mis-managing assets. To you, Nodl is a penny you drop on the sidewalk and nothing more.

Then there are those, like myself, that view every single player, every single dollar, and every single draft pick as an asset; and giving away any of them, unless there is no other option, is a failure.

If you are running a company, you don't just brush wasted dollars under the rug. Your job is to run the company. You trim the fat, you reduce your operating expenses and be as efficient as possible. I believe that is how a hockey team should be run as well. If I continually waste dollars (assets), I'd expect my board of directors to kick me to the curb.
Part of that job is assessing talent and upside and long term contributions so if they can get someone else in that spot that can do the job better, cheaper you move him out the door. Nodl stagnated and was passed by by younger, better, cheaper players...he had no ability to be sent to the minors and he wasn't good enough at this point to clog up the NHL roster so he goes.

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12-01-2011, 06:48 AM
  #396
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Part of that job is assessing talent and upside and long term contributions so if they can get someone else in that spot that can do the job better, cheaper you move him out the door. Nodl stagnated and was passed by by younger, better, cheaper players...he had no ability to be sent to the minors and he wasn't good enough at this point to clog up the NHL roster so he goes.
Noodle sux and after his first game with his new team i see he still sux glad he is gone....

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12-01-2011, 07:48 AM
  #397
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Part of that job is assessing talent and upside and long term contributions so if they can get someone else in that spot that can do the job better, cheaper you move him out the door. Nodl stagnated and was passed by by younger, better, cheaper players...he had no ability to be sent to the minors and he wasn't good enough at this point to clog up the NHL roster so he goes.
You don't have to explain to me the rationale behind it. I 100% understand it and agree with it (this is why I don't care about losing Nodl very much from a hockey perspective). As I've been saying the entire time, my entire issue is with what came straight from the horse's mouth. Homer said he was "gauging interest" and that makes absolutely zero sense.


Quoting myself here:
Quote:
Then there are those, like myself, that view every single player, every single dollar, and every single draft pick as an asset; and giving away any of them, unless there is no other option, is a failure.
Waiving someone to "gauge interest" does not qualify as "no other option". Your comment does not negate my point about managing assets. I agree with your point.

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12-01-2011, 07:50 AM
  #398
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His contract ran out. We didn't give him away. There's a difference.
He wasn't even given a qualifying offer. Not even was he let go, the Holmgren didn't even bother trying to get anything for him. Given that he was signed on July 1, it suggests he probably should have.


The same seems to have happened with Nodl, and pretty much every other guy we lose on waivers. Holmgren has flat out stated in the past that he doesn't feel waivers is a deterrent. Obviously, that's a falsehood.


I know Clarke was out of touch for the new NHL, but if he was still the GM there's no way he'd let all these guys disappear for nothing. He even got something for freaken Jon Sim.


People can say draft picks don't matter, but come trade deadline time, it burns you. You find out pretty quick that you either overpay or can't pay at all. Really burned them in 2010 by sticking with MF Leighton, and having to sign Lukas Krajicek off the scrap heap.

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12-01-2011, 07:57 AM
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Based on scarcity, a contract spot, one of only fifty, is also an asset. You can see losing Nödl on waivers also as trading Nödl for an open contract spot.
Very good point. It is.

That said, that still doesn't ok his "gauging interest". I understand the need to open that contract spot. If he explains himself like a competent GM then I have no complaints.

He should have said/done:
1) Let's gauge interest: Calls were made, not much happened, couldn't work something out.
2) We decided to waive him, open up a contract spot, a little space, and give Nodl a chance somewhere.

What he DID say:
1) Let's gauge interest:Let's waive him.

And PLEASE, PLEASE nobody reply to this with assumptions about what he may have, or may have not done. I've already spoken to the many assumptions that people make on these boards. All I can work with is FACTS. What we are being told happened. And THAT is my entire issue. Simply, what Homer said; because it doesn't make sense.

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12-01-2011, 08:14 AM
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GKJ
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The contract spot argument is double-sided. Yeah, we needed it. What we don't need is the handful of Phantoms players who count towards the 50, and have absolutely no NHL future. For instance, why did this team re-sign Jon Kalinski? Dan Jancevski should be on an AHL-only contract. Andreas Lilja getting a contract (for not one, but two years) was pointless if they were going to keep Walker hanging around, which he isn't because the Flyers couldn't figure out in June what they did in October. Likewise Johan Backlund, but if he wasn't given a one-way year on his two-year deal, we wouldn't have had to sign Jason Bacashihua just to make sure we had a third goaltender who did have a two-way contract. Keep in mind we already gave up a draft pick just to get the Kings to take Stefan Legein to get under the 50.

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