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Trade Proposal Thread 2.0 - Never Trust A Man With Two First Names Edition

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Old
11-30-2011, 03:15 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by MSG the place to be View Post
If (BIG ONE) we make a deal for Ryan he better score some goals because that's really all you can judge a player by. One tap in or two on one conversion a week and he'll be a hero.
Yep completely agree. Otherwise we'd have nutters running around claiming 3rd line dusters were superior to 1st line superstars with no rational means of qualifying it.

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Old
11-30-2011, 03:17 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Unless the Rangers fork over their untouchables,they aren't getting Bobby Ryan

Pierre LeBrun chat today





http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat...-pierre-lebrun

Anton Stralman stinks. It took one game before Torts put Woywitka back into the lineup

Stralman is one of those poles/gates you see in downhill skiing at the Olympics every 4 years



Opposing players go through and around him. Worse than a pylon.
wonder if he is a goner when staal comes back

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11-30-2011, 03:30 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Kovalev27 View Post
nothing that lebrun just said is something new and nothing there is proof the rangers have to give up an untouchable to get it done.
Actually, it speaks volumes. LeBrun says the Ducks will need to be BLOWN AWAY by an offer.

Does a Dubinsky, with 1 goal in 21 games, and Del Zotto who is just finding his footing in the NHL again BLOW AWAY anybody????

Besides, you gotta think the Ducks are trying to do this on the cheap if they can - Dubinsky and Del Zotto's salaries basically wash with Ryan.

No need to let your imagination run wild.

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11-30-2011, 03:30 PM
  #54
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These proposals... are ridiculous.

What happened to being happy with what we have?

First thing is first, this isn't fantasy hockey. This decision will impact at least the next 5 years of our organization.

Second, what's with all these statements of being fine with giving up our young players. No. I'm not "fine" with giving up anyone right now, unless we're talking about Wade Redden and Wojtek Wolski, especially not young pieces to our core and foundation.

I'll tell you what's realistic, that we DO NOT trade for Ryan. At this point, Glen Sather does not have the same liberties as he did 5 years ago. Our scouting department as well as Tortorella are promoting a youth movement. We went through a rough patch of mediocrity, but right now, the future is looking extremely bright *knock on wood*. Since we're promoting a youth movement and not collecting every star we can get our hands on (like in years past), more of our younger players will be considered "untouchable" by the FO.

Sure, you guys may be "fine" with giving these players up to get Ryan, but to the people who drafted/traded for our prospects, it is not "fine" to give them up.

Player 1:

Michael Del Zotto - He's not being traded. Give it up. He was called up at age 19. That's Staal status. He's our only decent puck moving defenseman. He's staying.

Player 2:

Dylan McIlrath - He's not being traded. Just because he hasn't been called up or hasn't had the results that many of you have wanted to see doesn't mean he's been made available. In fact, he was drafted with the knowledge that he'd take 4-5 years to develop. He's being compared to the likes of Orpik and Pronger.

Player 3:

Tim Erixon - He's not being traded. The scouting department loved him a few years ago, and Calgary snatched him up. We got him for a steal. He is also going to be a fixture on this team. He's smart, defensively very sound, and has some offense to his game.

Player 4:

Michael Sauer - The most expendable of our defenders, he's not being traded. With Staal out, he's become one of the main defender's our team has. Trading him leaves yet another hole in our defense. With Staal gone, and neither Erixon nor McIlrath ready to take that bulk of playing time, Sauer will not be traded.

Player 5:

Chris Kreider - The most likely of our top prospects to be traded, although, it is extremely unlikely. His speed is unseen in other players in the league. He is gritty, has decent skill, and versatile (as he plays on both the power play and kills off penalties as well). He fits the mold of the team identity.

It's been clear, that this team is unwilling to make big trades, because it would require giving up our youth. Not only are they unwilling to give up our youth, but they've remained patient in developing their prospects. That shows the commitment the FO has in this youth movement and in our prospects, to not only refuse to trade them, but also not rush the up (even if the team was struggling).

So enough of these ignorant comments claiming how "fine" it would be to be giving up prospect x and prospect y for Bobby Ryan or any other player for that matter.

The absolute most I see being wrung out of the Rangers is Dubinsky, Kreider, and a 2nd round pick... perhaps even a filler like Zucarello too. It wouldn't be fine to lose Kreider. It would hurt in the long run.

Giving up our youth for a player like Ryan would mean that the FO believes that throughout the next 2-3 years we'll be ready to legitimately contend for the cup. I don't think they believe that's the case, and thus, if the trade involves any of our key future prospects or players they will take themselves out of talks.

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Old
11-30-2011, 03:33 PM
  #55
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I agree with most of what you said kenjets, except for Sauer. To me, he is NOT expendable whatsoever.

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Old
11-30-2011, 03:33 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
These proposals... are ridiculous.

What happened to being happy with what we have?

First thing is first, this isn't fantasy hockey. This decision will impact at least the next 5 years of our organization.

Second, what's with all these statements of being fine with giving up our young players. No. I'm not "fine" with giving up anyone right now, unless we're talking about Wade Redden and Wojtek Wolski, especially not young pieces to our core and foundation.

I'll tell you what's realistic, that we DO NOT trade for Ryan. At this point, Glen Sather does not have the same liberties as he did 5 years ago. Our scouting department as well as Tortorella are promoting a youth movement. We went through a rough patch of mediocrity, but right now, the future is looking extremely bright *knock on wood*. Since we're promoting a youth movement and not collecting every star we can get our hands on (like in years past), more of our younger players will be considered "untouchable" by the FO.

Sure, you guys may be "fine" with giving these players up to get Ryan, but to the people who drafted/traded for our prospects, it is not "fine" to give them up.

Player 1:

Michael Del Zotto - He's not being traded. Give it up. He was called up at age 19. That's Staal status. He's our only decent puck moving defenseman. He's staying.

Player 2:

Dylan McIlrath - He's not being traded. Just because he hasn't been called up or hasn't had the results that many of you have wanted to see doesn't mean he's been made available. In fact, he was drafted with the knowledge that he'd take 4-5 years to develop. He's being compared to the likes of Orpik and Pronger.

Player 3:

Tim Erixon - He's not being traded. The scouting department loved him a few years ago, and Calgary snatched him up. We got him for a steal. He is also going to be a fixture on this team. He's smart, defensively very sound, and has some offense to his game.

Player 4:

Michael Sauer - The most expendable of our defenders, he's not being traded. With Staal out, he's become one of the main defender's our team has. Trading him leaves yet another hole in our defense. With Staal gone, and neither Erixon nor McIlrath ready to take that bulk of playing time, Sauer will not be traded.

Player 5:

Chris Kreider - The most likely of our top prospects to be traded, although, it is extremely unlikely. His speed is unseen in other players in the league. He is gritty, has decent skill, and versatile (as he plays on both the power play and kills off penalties as well). He fits the mold of the team identity.

It's been clear, that this team is unwilling to make big trades, because it would require giving up our youth. Not only are they unwilling to give up our youth, but they've remained patient in developing their prospects. That shows the commitment the FO has in this youth movement and in our prospects, to not only refuse to trade them, but also not rush the up (even if the team was struggling).

So enough of these ignorant comments claiming how "fine" it would be to be giving up prospect x and prospect y for Bobby Ryan or any other player for that matter.

The absolute most I see being wrung out of the Rangers is Dubinsky, Kreider, and a 2nd round pick... perhaps even a filler like Zucarello too. It wouldn't be fine to lose Kreider. It would hurt in the long run.

Giving up our youth for a player like Ryan would mean that the FO believes that in the next 2-3 years we'll be ready to legitimately contend for the cup. I don't think they believe that's the case, and thus, if the trade involves any of our key future prospects or players they will take themselves out of talks.
You do realize Bobby Ryan is only 24 years old, right?

This is not a 35 year old Jarome Iginla we're talking about here.

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Old
11-30-2011, 03:35 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Reijo R View Post
I agree with most of what you said kenjets, except for Sauer. To me, he is NOT expendable whatsoever.
He becomes expendable when McIlrath is ready.

At that point, we'll likely have a defense of

Staal-Girardi
McDonough-Sauer
Erixon-Del Zotto

... someone's gonna have to go.

It'll be Girardi, if his age/productivity decreases in 2-3 years, or Sauer, who McIlrath is slightly comparable to.

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Old
11-30-2011, 03:37 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by KingofNY View Post
You do realize Bobby Ryan is only 24 years old, right?

This is not a 35 year old Jarome Iginla we're talking about here.
Yea. I do.

But for the amount of youth we'd have to give up for 1 player, he'd be someone you brought in only if you thought he would put your team over the top in the playoffs...

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11-30-2011, 03:41 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Second, what's with all these statements of being fine with giving up our young players. No. I'm not "fine" with giving up anyone right now, unless we're talking about Wade Redden and Wojtek Wolski, especially not young pieces to our core and foundation.
1. I don't think we are landing Ryan, if he is even traded. Anaheim is going to receive a better offer than what we are willing to part with.

2. Could not disagree more with your trade valuations of our pieces. Sauer and Kreider are or should be the least expendable of the group you described.

3. You have to give to get. Ryan is a 24 year old 3 time 30 goal scorer. The only player we have with the potential to be that is Kreider, and it is all but guarenteed. That is not something that is easy to find elsewhere, especially at a reasonable cap hit.

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Old
11-30-2011, 03:42 PM
  #60
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Bobby Ryan would be a huge get, but I still wouldn't include Kreider in a package for him because there's always a chance we could sign Parise in the offseason and wind up with both Parise and Kreider.

I'd be willing to give up some combination of Dubinsky, McIlrath, Thomas, St. Croix, McColgan, Zuccarello, and draft picks. I wouldn't move any of the other current guys on the team, Kreider, or Erixon. If push came to shove and we had to give up Miller, then I'd probably do it.

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Old
11-30-2011, 03:44 PM
  #61
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I'd honestly rather wait to see how this season plays out and not screw around with chemistry and not surrender any assets. Make our play for Parise on 7/1/12. The Drury buy-out will be reduced, Avery will be gone, WW will be gone, and really only Pruster and MDZ are looking at (minimal) pay-raises.

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11-30-2011, 03:45 PM
  #62
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Color me confused about this whole thing. I love Dubinsky as much as anybody, but why exactly would the Ducks move Ryan for him? Ryan is a better player with a cap hit that's not that much more egregious and he's younger. Locker room shake up? I don't buy it. The Ducks need defense. Period. That's their issue right now.

I also don't understand how a package with Del Zotto in it solves that problem. Yes, Del Zotto is extremely young and has tremendous potential. But he certainly isn't some defensive stalwart that solves their issues on the back end.

There is literally no reason for the Ducks to swap Ryan for Dubinsky, and not bringing in a defenseman that's forte is playing defense makes no sense.
My sentiments exactly.
I could see Sather trying to lowball his offer but then it would go against the notion that the Ducks are just listening and that it would involve a "hefty" price to get it done.

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Old
11-30-2011, 03:45 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post

Giving up our youth for a player like Ryan would mean that the FO believes that throughout the next 2-3 years we'll be ready to legitimately contend for the cup. I don't think they believe that's the case, and thus, if the trade involves any of our key future prospects or players they will take themselves out of talks.
McIlrath is far too overrated by you, but I'd agree with what you're saying. I'd deal McIlrath or Erixon in the right deal, and for a young stud in Ryan who will top out at over 90 points, the trigger should be pulled. This isn't overreacting to a hot start, it represents a chance to get a player that we'll have for at least four years who provides more top talent that we're going to need to get over the hump.

Ryan is everything we want Kreider to become. Having said that, I don't think Dubinsky is in the team's future plans beyond this contract anyway, and likely he'll be gone before it's over. Again, this isn't an overreaction. Dubinsky is one of my favorite Rangers, but he's extremely inconsistent which is very frustrating. Thus, trading Dubinsky wouldn't bother me at all, especially if it brings back a guy like Ryan. Miller is going to be a younger, cheaper version of Dubinsky, possibly by next season.

I think with Ryan our lineup in a couple of years looks like this:

Kreider-Richards-Gaborik
Thomas-Stepan-Ryan
Callahan-Anisimov-Miller

That's a phenomenal top 9, and since Dubinsky likely would be gone by then, it may be best to simply deal him now. No problem trading Dubinsky, a first (preferably 2013) and a top defensive prospect for Ryan.

Prospects may not pan out. Bobby Ryan is a legitimate 30 goal scorer and he'd help put the Rangers near the top of the East. We may not contend this season with him, but we'd be a hell of a lot closer than we would if we had an inconsistent Dubinsky.

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11-30-2011, 03:46 PM
  #64
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For people willing to give up Del Zotto because Staal is possibly coming back soon, what happens if we get an injury to one of the other top 3 D-men(or Staal once again.) Do we really want Eminger/Woywitka/Erixon/Stralman getting top 4 minutes? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

The value of the trade would be fine, but for a team that's excelling right now partly because of their excellent team defense, I wouldn't want to break that up right now.

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11-30-2011, 03:49 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by NYRSchrute217 View Post
McIlrath is far too overrated by you, but I'd agree with what you're saying. I'd deal McIlrath or Erixon in the right deal, and for a young stud in Ryan who will top out at over 90 points, the trigger should be pulled. This isn't overreacting to a hot start, it represents a chance to get a player that we'll have for at least four years who provides more top talent that we're going to need to get over the hump.

That's a phenomenal top 9, and since Dubinsky likely would be gone by then, it may be best to simply deal him now. No problem trading Dubinsky, a first (preferably 2013) and a top defensive prospect for Ryan.

Prospects may not pan out. Bobby Ryan is a legitimate 30 goal scorer and he'd put the Rangers in the East. We may not contend this season with him, but we'd be a hell of a lot closer than we would if we had an inconsistent Dubinsky.
I agree with you 100%. I would have no problem moving Erixon or McIlrath and definitely would move either before Sauer or Kreider. I am not sure the Rangers org would agree however.

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Old
11-30-2011, 03:50 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
1. I don't think we are landing Ryan, if he is even traded. Anaheim is going to receive a better offer than what we are willing to part with.

2. Could not disagree more with your trade valuations of our pieces. Sauer and Kreider are or should be the least expendable of the group you described.

3. You have to give to get. Ryan is a 24 year old 3 time 30 goal scorer. The only player we have with the potential to be that is Kreider, and it is all but guarenteed. That is not something that is easy to find elsewhere, especially at a reasonable cap hit.
1. I don't think he'll be traded to us either, although the thought of the GAS line and then him with Richards and Callahan is so tempting.

2. Sauer's play has been great, however, he's often injured and when McIlrath comes up he'll likely become expendable. That's what I meant by the most expendable of our defenders. It's no knock on him, but we have Staal and Girardi (who are filthy together). Del Zotto and McDonough, MDZ (who's critical to our defense and power play since he's our only adequate puck mover) and McDonough who's held his own on the first line himself. And Erixon and McIlrath (both also having projected ceilings of the 1st line pairing). Of the 7, who would become most expendable? Erixon? Had he been redrafted this year he would have gone top 5. That's blue chip status. Don't let the fact that we stole him for a 2nd round pick fool you into thinking his value is that of a 2nd rounder.

As for Kreider, i'll say it again, I watch him every home game. His speed is unheralded, but he'll likely be a 25-30 goal scorer and add 20-25 assists. A 2nd liner.

Our next best offensive prospect, Christian Thomas, I don't watch much of, but he's undersized. That hasn't stopped a lot of players but it's a major hurdle, and well it's a tougher road and thus a lower probability that he succeeds at the NHL level.

3. Yes. Which is why it's so strange that he's being shopped in the first place. It should set off alarm signals. Team's don't trade talents like Ryan, at that age, being signed affordable for the next 4-5 years. Which only makes me want to hold onto our prospects more...

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11-30-2011, 03:53 PM
  #67
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I agree with you 100%. I would have no problem moving Erixon or McIlrath and definitely would move either before Sauer or Kreider. I am not sure the Rangers org would agree however.
Which is unfortunate because Kreider is the best prospect we have. I love Tim Erixon and think he's going to be a great player for the Rangers, but it would be ridiculous to not make a trade because of how he could end up. McDonagh is a more talented player who is more adapted to the North American game, so those making that comparison bother me. Two different players.

I really don't see the fascination with McIlrath. He has less than no offensive game and he's not impressive defensively. We drafted a crease-clearing #5 with the 10th overall pick. Poor asset management.

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11-30-2011, 03:54 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by NYRSchrute217 View Post
McIlrath is far too overrated by you, but I'd agree with what you're saying. I'd deal McIlrath or Erixon in the right deal, and for a young stud in Ryan who will top out at over 90 points, the trigger should be pulled. This isn't overreacting to a hot start, it represents a chance to get a player that we'll have for at least four years who provides more top talent that we're going to need to get over the hump.

Ryan is everything we want Kreider to become. Having said that, I don't think Dubinsky is in the team's future plans beyond this contract anyway, and likely he'll be gone before it's over. Again, this isn't an overreaction. Dubinsky is one of my favorite Rangers, but he's extremely inconsistent which is very frustrating. Thus, trading Dubinsky wouldn't bother me at all, especially if it brings back a guy like Ryan. Miller is going to be a younger, cheaper version of Dubinsky, possibly by next season.

I think with Ryan our lineup in a couple of years looks like this:

Kreider-Richards-Gaborik
Thomas-Stepan-Ryan
Callahan-Anisimov-Miller

That's a phenomenal top 9, and since Dubinsky likely would be gone by then, it may be best to simply deal him now. No problem trading Dubinsky, a first (preferably 2013) and a top defensive prospect for Ryan.

Prospects may not pan out. Bobby Ryan is a legitimate 30 goal scorer and he'd help put the Rangers near the top of the East. We may not contend this season with him, but we'd be a hell of a lot closer than we would if we had an inconsistent Dubinsky.
Perhaps I may over value McIlrath. However, there is no indication that he's struggling or even beginning to bust. In fact, there is only positive news being generated by him. He's only 20. He's not an offensive defenseman, so the hold up with him is becoming defensively better and filling out his frame. Most defensive defenders don't come up until age 23 or 24. Staal is a rarity because he was up at like age 19, and for the first few years, defensively, he was at times a liability.

I expect McIlrath to one day be on the opposite of Staal.

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11-30-2011, 03:57 PM
  #69
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Which is unfortunate because Kreider is the best prospect we have. I love Tim Erixon and think he's going to be a great player for the Rangers, but it would be ridiculous to not make a trade because of how he could end up. McDonagh is a more talented player who is more adapted to the North American game, so those making that comparison bother me. Two different players.

I really don't see the fascination with McIlrath. He has less than no offensive game and he's not impressive defensively. We drafted a crease-clearing #5 with the 10th overall pick. Poor asset management.
This is where I think you under-value McIlrath.

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11-30-2011, 04:06 PM
  #70
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i think if Staal was healthy Sauer would already be on a plane to Callifornia

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11-30-2011, 04:09 PM
  #71
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i think if Staal was healthy Sauer would already be on a plane to Callifornia
Yup.

Still could happen if Staal comes back and Ryan isn't traded for a while...

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11-30-2011, 04:13 PM
  #72
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Sauer in no way shape or form is expendable.

Same stupid baseless arguments that tried to suggest Girardi was expendable.

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11-30-2011, 04:15 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Sauer in no way shape or form is expendable.

Same stupid baseless arguments that tried to suggest Girardi was expendable.
Not now he's not. But with a healthy Staal, emerging Erixon, and McIlrath in 2-3 years... he becomes it.

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11-30-2011, 04:18 PM
  #74
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Darren Dreger on NHL Live is saying he's legitimately available.

Says it will take a young center, young defenseman and a pick.


IF this is true what's being reported, then why is Kreider name keep being mentioned?
He doesn't fit what Anaheim reportedly wants.

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11-30-2011, 04:22 PM
  #75
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Not now he's not. But with a healthy Staal, emerging Erixon, and McIlrath in 2-3 years... he becomes it.
I don't understand what McIlrath is in 2-3 years has to do with this conversation other than the fact that his potential gives him value. A trade for Ryan isn't a trade for the present only, but the future as well. It also gives us some security for at least 1 year beyond the end of Gaborik's contract.

I like McIlrath, but to say we shouldn't consider trading him in this situation really overvalues his place in this organization. Our D is one of the youngest in the league and is already one of the best. Our offense is a bigger long-term concern.

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