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"S.O.S" catastrophic season?

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Old
11-30-2011, 06:04 PM
  #76
Ozymandias
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
Ok. I'm probably wrong. And i'll try, again, to look at it the way people tell me in this thread, like I try every year.

So Plekanec is perfect as a first line center with "around" 70 points.
So habs play well and are unlucky with injuries.
So Camy is ok. Gionta is ok. Price is Ok. Cole is a great addition. Kosty is OK. Gorges is ok.

Well... That doesn't work. I'm tired of watching this team fighthing for a playoff spot. Everything is not ok and I'm now thinking that the players of this team are seriously overrated.

Plekanec is nothing more than a PK specialist who is average in every other aspect of the game.
Gionta is on the wrong side of its peak.
Gorges has heart but is nothing more than a 4-6 d-man
Price is a good goalie, like there are 10-12 others in the league.
Subban is gold, but people who think he can allready assume #1 duty are dead wrong, and it's not a given that he will be a #1 one day.
Max Pac is a good player, but not a difference maker.
Eller is a good player, but probably won't ever be a true offensive threat. He would be better off developping into the percfect third line center he can be.
The team doesn't have any difference maker, and none is coming.
Desharnais is too easily pushed away from the puck. He would be ok with Cole and Max Pac in a second line role if the team had a true first line.
Even with Markov, the d-men are a really weak group.

If I'm wrong, then I don't understand why the team has such a hard time making the playoffs
.

Maybe because you're so blind to their true nature, that you even misrepresent reality, as they didn't have a hard time making the playoffs last year, no matter how you wanna twist it.

We have a really weak group of dmen, and yet stand top 10 on D in the league, without our MVP who turned our team around two years ago, and again, they wouldn't have made the playoffs at the last game of the season if Markov had been there the entire time. Our D is actually missing half its regular players, including one of the best Ds in the league.

It's a shame our team isn't built more like a team like the ducks. Getzlaf, Ryan, Perry, Koivu, Selanne, Fowler, Hiller. Damn, if only we were as good as them........

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Old
11-30-2011, 06:10 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Problems? Many, if not most of the "problems" the Habs have are part of the same skewed view. We get repeated that the Habs suck so often that many of us have started accepting it as gospel, without ever comparing to the rest of the league. Look at your list. Subban might never become a #1? He is a #1 D-man right now. Pleky, one of the better two-way centers in the game, is "average in every other aspect of the game"? That's setting the average awfully high, and him being arguably the best PK forward in the league does not automatically make him "a PK specialist". Gorges is only a 4-6 D-man despite thriving in his current #2 role? Price is a 10-12 goalie? MaxPac looks like a 30-goal scorer at age 23, but he's not "a difference-maker"? Do you know how many players score 30 goals regularly?

Or another example: for a team that supposedly has a hard time making the playoffs, they haven't done a whole lot of missing the playoffs over the last few years, now, have they? Certainly they didn't have much trouble last season, despite their lack of puck luck on offense.

Their current position in the standings? Already explained: too many games, they dominated and lost. They've simply ran into more than their share of injuries, hot goalies, and bad luck. Their goal-differential is positive despite this, and only one Eastern team that has scored more goals than their opponents is outside of the playoff picture right now. Their record is simply not representative of the club's strength, even the injury-riddled version we've seen them ice all year.

I can explain in more detail, but whenever I do that my explanations get dismissed without much support, so I'm not sure why I'd bother. Unless you're willing to accept that good hockey teams often lose and bad hockey teams often win, it's hopeless anyway.
Maybe, just maybe if Martin did not allow the Habs to sit on leads, this team would be ranked 3rd or 4th in the East.

Thus, you understand my dislike for Jacques Martin in control of this team.

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Old
11-30-2011, 06:18 PM
  #78
Erik Estrada
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
Last season, people (like MathMan) who pay attention to underlying stats were saying that New Jersey was not as bad as its record. It took half a season, but they turned out to be right. Sometimes puck luck can impact a team for a lot of games with a one goal difference, it can make or break seasons.
Replacing Maclean by Lemaire at Xmas time couldn't have hurt either.

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Old
11-30-2011, 06:30 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
while i agree with your general sentiment.

different leagues, different rules.

the yankees have a payroll of ~201 million. the poorest team, has a payroll of ~36 million. the second highest spending team? they're at 172 million and the dropoff is quick after that. they've been spending at this rate for 20+ years now. they want a player, they sign him as free agents. nothing special about their drafting. yet, they've only won the world series twice since 2000. should we consider them a failure?

chelsea, united, arsenal and you can include liverpool for the lulz if you want are the top 4 of that league in spending. fun fact: since 92, there's been 4 champions in the premier league, united, chelsea, arsenal and the last time one of these 3 didn't win was blackburn in 94.

there is no draft in football and teams like chelsea, man u and arsenal just divvy up the best free agents (using the term loosely). in fact, the team management of the sport are so different i wouldn't even bother comparing them. by the way, im not saying they are not well run, the opposite.

by comparision, the NHL has a hard salary cap set at 64.3 million with a cap spending floor of 48.3 million. it has a rigid drafting system with an unbelievable parity and being the habs, they are still operating under a 'management must speak french'. sounds stupid i know, but it's as stupid as the rangers hiring a coach that doesn't speak english. i don't like that rule, i have a feeling it's going to eventually change but in the meantime: "deal with it". whether you like it or not, the canadiens are in a , you guessed it, a french-speaking province and while you may think "it doesn't matter", keep in mind you are posting in a message board where everyone that speaks french, also speaks english.

ask joe tremblay lost in his cabin somewhere near lac saint-jean if he'd like a coach that didn't speak french...

under those conditions, find me a GM and a coach that are better than what we currently have that speaks french and english.

go on, i'll wait.

for the record: i WANT the best coach and GM available, regardless of language. but im not arrogant enough to think that everyone wants or will accept the same thing i will.

it's fine to aspire or wish the team to be better but at the same time, pointing at teams like the yankees and united and saying "well why can't we be as good as they are" is stupid. it's stupid because you are ignoring the context of their championship wins.

attack at will...

in before: lol u accept mediocrity
This is how you limit the success of your team: by limiting your options. This is the only team in the league that imposes limitations on who is suitable to coach or manage (other than the teams limited by financial constraints).
Some might think it's a good thing, some might think it's bad. No matter which side you take in this debate, you must admit that it impedes the progress of the franchise.
We either get lucky or we remain the same: middle of the pack.

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Old
11-30-2011, 06:31 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
on pace for close to 70 pts...

on the first wave of the PK unit who has yet to give a goal 4vs5 in the last 3 weeks or so...
Plekanec has played like a #1C for a time. If he can somehow anchor the PK up to a 86%+ level, and handle top-line opposition while having a +/- a good way within the + territory, then I can seriously consider him as a potential Selke finalist.

And this is also a PK unit that has yet to give up a 3vs5 goal in the last 3 weeks as well. With Plekanec on the top PK line we killed 43 straight penalties. 10 more and we'll break the record.

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Old
11-30-2011, 06:43 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Maybe, just maybe if Martin did not allow the Habs to sit on leads, this team would be ranked 3rd or 4th in the East.
The Habs have yet to lose a game in regulation when they enter the third with a lead.

I'll allow that 2 overtime losses is a bit high at this juncture, but I don't think that's the cause of the Habs' record -- the most they could possibly have lost due to blowing third-period leads is two points. The games they lost and should've won, the ones that are really killing them, are games like the last versus Boston: games they never led or never led by more than one.

In any case, seeing as all teams in the league sit on leads to some extent, you'd be hard-pressed to find a coach who is more satisfactory to you in this regard. A coach who didn't probably isn't very good either. There's a reason why all the teams do it, too: it makes good tactical sense.

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Old
11-30-2011, 06:47 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
Injuries don't explain a few ugly tendencies I witnessed every game. Camaleri looks uninterested, Gionta looks older than ever, Plekanec stops skating everytime he gets close to the corners, Gill looks done, Price never steal a game (not his fault, but it is something he has to do from time to time with the talent this team has).

I'm worry about Plekanec. From one of the most underrated player, he's starting to be overrated by habs fans. Beside being great on the PK, the guy is nothing more than a small second line center. He never goes in traffic and never wins a battle along the ramp. And his PK talent is overblown. Every team has such specialist, and the habs had some before him. Every reasonnably talented player can become a PK specialist if he's asked to be one.

I would personnaly contemplate trade offers for Plekanec since his value is higher than it would ever be.
He was voted one of (if not) the most underrated players in the league by the players. Are you saying you're right and they're wrong? I really doubt we overrate him lol.

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Old
11-30-2011, 07:02 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
Ok. I'm probably wrong. And i'll try, again, to look at it the way people tell me in this thread, like I try every year.

So Plekanec is perfect as a first line center with "around" 70 points.
So habs play well and are unlucky with injuries.
So Camy is ok. Gionta is ok. Price is Ok. Cole is a great addition. Kosty is OK. Gorges is ok.

Well... That doesn't work. I'm tired of watching this team fighthing for a playoff spot. Everything is not ok and I'm now thinking that the players of this team are seriously overrated.

Plekanec is nothing more than a PK specialist who is average in every other aspect of the game.
Gionta is on the wrong side of its peak.
Gorges has heart but is nothing more than a 4-6 d-man
Price is a good goalie, like there are 10-12 others in the league.
Subban is gold, but people who think he can allready assume #1 duty are dead wrong, and it's not a given that he will be a #1 one day.
Max Pac is a good player, but not a difference maker.
Eller is a good player, but probably won't ever be a true offensive threat. He would be better off developping into the percfect third line center he can be.
The team doesn't have any difference maker, and none is coming.
Desharnais is too easily pushed away from the puck. He would be ok with Cole and Max Pac in a second line role if the team had a true first line.
Even with Markov, the d-men are a really weak group.

If I'm wrong, then I don't understand why the team has such a hard time making the playoffs.
Will break it down for you.

Plek - If he's average why is he one of roughly 30-40 players in the league who puts up the points he does on top of being a PK specialist and solid defensively?

Gionta - Is basically good for 30 goals regardless of a slow start and being past prime.

Gorges - Is a solid #4 imo. Not just any 4-6. He's also played some of his best hockey of his career this season, even he can't keep this team alive on his own though.

Price - Right now your assessment is accurate, what about in 2-3 years when he's top 5 in the league guaranteed? Bookmark this post I guarantee it. The dude is a phenom and is getting better every year. The way the team has played is not representative of just how good the guy is.

Subban - Is already doing what you claim he can't do and is doing it well. Yeah he makes mistakes, he's a young guy with 1 year AHL experience 1 year NHL experience shouldering an entire team on his and Gorges back. Jeeze man. What did you expect like 10g 10a by now? He can't take risks right now he needs to be a rock for this team and he has been He Gorges and Price can't do everything!!

Max Pac has already been a difference maker in several games notching GWG and even getting SO goals dude.

Eller - That's your opinion and it's valid because we can't know. I personally see him developing into a solid playmaking #2 center. He's awesome imo and just needs to work on his scoring touch. It's the type of thing we see split either way with young players all the time.

Agree about Desharnais even though he's played amazing so far. I think he's more of a 2nd line C and he does get pushed off the puck. But he's a fighter and many a time I've seen him play with a lot of heart and earn a goal or assist big time.

I agree that even with Markov our D line up isn't the best even at full potential, it's average defensively but will be good offensively imo. Keeping or replacing Hammer would be ideal.

I'm not saying it's perfect but it isn't the players you speak of who are the problem they're all a part of the solution. Even Andrei Kostitsyn. We've just had a ton of injuries and people are depressed and we aren't seeing our real team right now. We'll bounce back and everything will be fine trust me on this one. I've been a fan my whole life this team has a knack for bouncing back from stuff like this.

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Old
11-30-2011, 07:10 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Problems? Many, if not most of the "problems" the Habs have are part of the same skewed view. We get repeated that the Habs suck so often that many of us have started accepting it as gospel, without ever comparing to the rest of the league. Look at your list. Subban might never become a #1? He is a #1 D-man right now. Pleky, one of the better two-way centers in the game, is "average in every other aspect of the game"? That's setting the average awfully high, and him being arguably the best PK forward in the league does not automatically make him "a PK specialist". Gorges is only a 4-6 D-man despite thriving in his current #2 role? Price is a 10-12 goalie? MaxPac looks like a 30-goal scorer at age 23, but he's not "a difference-maker"? Do you know how many players score 30 goals regularly?

Or another example: for a team that supposedly has a hard time making the playoffs, they haven't done a whole lot of missing the playoffs over the last few years, now, have they? Certainly they didn't have much trouble last season, despite their lack of puck luck on offense.

Their current position in the standings? Already explained: too many games, they dominated and lost. They've simply ran into more than their share of injuries, hot goalies, and bad luck. Their goal-differential is positive despite this, and only one Eastern team that has scored more goals than their opponents is outside of the playoff picture right now. Their record is simply not representative of the club's strength, even the injury-riddled version we've seen them ice all year.

I can explain in more detail, but whenever I do that my explanations get dismissed without much support, so I'm not sure why I'd bother. Unless you're willing to accept that good hockey teams often lose and bad hockey teams often win, it's hopeless anyway.
Because you explain **** with logic and the people who fail to ever use any and actually watch the games just want to bash and ignore you and look up the stats/scores and bash.

I've watched every game and what you said is true. We dominated and lost on several occasions due to terrible puck luck and extremely hot goaltending. We should have at least won 5 games I can remember that we lost.

The luck will basically regress to the mean cause we're too talented a team for it to not work out and plenty of our players have chemistry together. It's just a matter of time. We have many players playing well and several injuries. It's actually a lot better than it honestly should be. People need to chill out. We have Carey Price. We're going to be alright.

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Old
11-30-2011, 07:19 PM
  #85
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Because you explain **** with logic and the people who fail to ever use any and actually watch the games just want to bash and ignore you and look up the stats/scores and bash.

I've watched every game and what you said is true. We dominated and lost on several occasions due to terrible puck luck and extremely hot goaltending. We should have at least won 5 games I can remember that we lost.

The luck will basically regress to the mean cause we're too talented a team for it to not work out and plenty of our players have chemistry together. It's just a matter of time. We have many players playing well and several injuries. It's actually a lot better than it honestly should be. People need to chill out. We have Carey Price. We're going to be alright.
Sorry. Not buying it. Skill and an effective game plan beat "luck" almost all of the time.

Sure, teams get a lucky bounce and an unlucky bounce from time to time. Yes, we hit goalposts but so do other teams.

Using "luck" as rationale for winning or losing games is deniability at its worst, no offense to you.

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Old
11-30-2011, 09:29 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Sorry. Not buying it. Skill and an effective game plan beat "luck" almost all of the time.
This is true... in the long run.

Over a single game or a small series of games, luck is too much a factor and can often swallow skill.

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Old
12-01-2011, 12:14 AM
  #87
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only 24 players actually hit 70 points or more last year. That's not even an average of 1 per team.
well, there i gone done it...

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Old
12-01-2011, 03:16 AM
  #88
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Jesus Christ, hate your team much??
I think people generaly love the CH logo more and what this team represents more than the players.

But it's hard to compare to guys like the Rocket or Lafleur, etc...

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12-01-2011, 03:21 AM
  #89
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Cantin like the other nerds journalists from Montreal are funny cats. They hate Martin's boring style yet they are the first to talk down about physical plays and fighting. They are only whining because they can't run the team themselves and because the Habs don't kiss their butts. Not realising that the reason that Martin's style is boring is a big part because he never uses the physicality.

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12-01-2011, 10:49 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Will break it down for you.

Plek - If he's average why is he one of roughly 30-40 players in the league who puts up the points he does on top of being a PK specialist and solid defensively?
Ok, then I'm wrong. Sorry to not just look at stats. I just don't like a guy braking everytime he goes into corners and not elevating his offensive game when needed, like I think a first line center will do.

Gionta - Is basically good for 30 goals regardless of a slow start and being past prime. Still, he's passed is prime. What's wrong with that assessment? I'm not mad at him, I just stating reason why this team has hard time just making the playoffs.

Gorges - Is a solid #4 imo. Not just any 4-6. He's also played some of his best hockey of his career this season, even he can't keep this team alive on his own though. Yes, he plays great, but still, he plays it like a 4-6 d-man. It's been so much time since people didn't watch a true contender that they don't realize what's a 1-2 d-men and 4-6 d-man. Gorges blocks shot, and move the puck slightly above average and is tough to beat 1 vs 1. That's it, and that's what's asked of a 4-6 d-man.

Price - Right now your assessment is accurate, what about in 2-3 years when he's top 5 in the league guaranteed? Bookmark this post I guarantee it. The dude is a phenom and is getting better every year. The way the team has played is not representative of just how good the guy is. Maybe, we'll see.I'm no futurologist.

Subban - Is already doing what you claim he can't do and is doing it well. Not at all. He's not doing what a real #1 d-man would do. See the power play, for a starter. Yeah he makes mistakes, he's a young guy with 1 year AHL experience 1 year NHL experience shouldering an entire team on his and Gorges back. I know, that's my point. I'm not saying he's bad or anything, I'm just saying he's not playing like a #1 yet, and we honnestly don't know if he will one day. Jeeze man. What did you expect like 10g 10a by now? He can't take risks right now he needs to be a rock for this team and he has been He Gorges and Price can't do everything!! Again, I know all that. You react like I said that he wasn't as good as he is. I'm just saying he's no #1 right now like people seems to think (you just did by stating that he plays like one.)

Max Pac has already been a difference maker in several games notching GWG and even getting SO goals dude. That doesn't make him a difference maker.

Eller - That's your opinion and it's valid because we can't know. I personally see him developing into a solid playmaking #2 center. He's awesome imo and just needs to work on his scoring touch. It's the type of thing we see split either way with young players all the time. Yes. My guess is he will become a great defensive third line center.

Agree about Desharnais even though he's played amazing so far. I think he's more of a 2nd line C and he does get pushed off the puck. But he's a fighter and many a time I've seen him play with a lot of heart and earn a goal or assist big time. That's one of my point against Plekanec, in a way. You can't have Plekanec as a first line center if you got Desharnais as a second loine center (or vice versa, for that matter).

I agree that even with Markov our D line up isn't the best even at full potential, it's average defensively but will be good offensively imo. Keeping or replacing Hammer would be ideal.

I'm not saying it's perfect but it isn't the players you speak of who are the problem they're all a part of the solution. Even Andrei Kostitsyn. We've just had a ton of injuries and people are depressed and we aren't seeing our real team right now. We'll bounce back and everything will be fine trust me on this one. I've been a fan my whole life this team has a knack for bouncing back from stuff like this.
I don't hate the team or the players. I'm just saying that the Habs always fight for a playoffs spot because that's their level of talent. People generally overestimate Habs' players. Like it or not, when your first line center is Plekanec, when Subban and Gorges are your #1-2 d-men, when Desharnais is your second line center, when Gionta and Cole are your 2 best wingers, when your third loine is made of players who should be on the 4th line, when your 4th line is made of 13th forwards, when 2 of your 6 d-men should be 7th and 8th d-men, then you simply fight for a playoff spot.

So I really think PG should contemplate changing the makeup of this team because they're going nowhere.

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Old
12-01-2011, 12:41 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Skarjak View Post
That we get angry when our team sucks is what separates us from Leafs fans, who just take it without saying a word. There's a reason their team has not won since 1967.

The Habs should be held to a higher standard than the Panthers. That our team is at .500 this far into the season is catastrophic.
lolwut?

Leaf fans do anything but "not say a word" when the team loses. You're delusional if you think fans are okay with the losing culture that has been around.

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12-01-2011, 12:54 PM
  #92
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Problems? Many, if not most of the "problems" the Habs have are part of the same skewed view. We get repeated that the Habs suck so often that many of us have started accepting it as gospel, without ever comparing to the rest of the league. Look at your list. Subban might never become a #1? He is a #1 D-man right now. Pleky, one of the better two-way centers in the game, is "average in every other aspect of the game"? That's setting the average awfully high, and him being arguably the best PK forward in the league does not automatically make him "a PK specialist". Gorges is only a 4-6 D-man despite thriving in his current #2 role? Price is a 10-12 goalie? MaxPac looks like a 30-goal scorer at age 23, but he's not "a difference-maker"? Do you know how many players score 30 goals regularly?

Or another example: for a team that supposedly has a hard time making the playoffs, they haven't done a whole lot of missing the playoffs over the last few years, now, have they? Certainly they didn't have much trouble last season, despite their lack of puck luck on offense.

Their current position in the standings? Already explained: too many games, they dominated and lost. They've simply ran into more than their share of injuries, hot goalies, and bad luck. Their goal-differential is positive despite this, and only one Eastern team that has scored more goals than their opponents is outside of the playoff picture right now. Their record is simply not representative of the club's strength, even the injury-riddled version we've seen them ice all year.

I can explain in more detail, but whenever I do that my explanations get dismissed without much support, so I'm not sure why I'd bother. Unless you're willing to accept that good hockey teams often lose and bad hockey teams often win, it's hopeless anyway.
Don't worry, a lot of people are overly emotional about this team and want to think they know everything - evidence and logic be damned, it's nice having posters like you who don't do this.

There is some serious problems with this team beyond luck - the two most obvious being the power play and a lack of focus (injuries are part to blame for this), but when I hear things like we are the worst run team in the league, or are so bad our only hope is to tank, I wonder where people get this from besides logical fallacies like "we lost to the Islanders and Ducks, both teams are very bad, therefore we are even worse!"

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12-01-2011, 03:33 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Don't worry, a lot of people are overly emotional about this team and want to think they know everything - evidence and logic be damned, it's nice having posters like you who don't do this.

There is some serious problems with this team beyond luck - the two most obvious being the power play and a lack of focus (injuries are part to blame for this), but when I hear things like we are the worst run team in the league, or are so bad our only hope is to tank, I wonder where people get this from besides logical fallacies like "we lost to the Islanders and Ducks, both teams are very bad, therefore we are even worse!"
I don't know for others, but believe me, I'm not emotional. To the contrary, I consider I take the defence of this team by saying that they're playing at their normal talent level.

And I think it' funny that you say something like "...and want to think they know everything - evidence and logic be damned..." when the team results for the past 3 years shows that I'm right. What's logic, then? Saying that this team is better than just fighthing for a playoff spot is more logical then saying the opposite? Wow, we don't have the same definition of logic, I guess.

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