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Forbes 2011: Team Values Hit All-Time High

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Old
11-30-2011, 06:52 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Interesting, always like reading these.

And, if anyone cares to glance it over, attached is a quick chart of every NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL team by franchise value. Couldn't upload the Excel file directly, for some reason, so it's a three page pdf, with the color coding chart on the third page.

EDIT: ah, found a better way to do it. The attachment with the picture showing is better.
The value of the Houston Texans always shocks me.

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Old
11-30-2011, 07:12 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
Rank Team Current Value ($mil) 1-Yr Value Change (%) Debt/Value (%) Revenue ($mil) Operating Income ($mil)
1 Toronto Maple Leafs 521 3 25 193 81.8
3 Montreal Canadiens 445 9 65 165 47.7
7 Vancouver Canucks300 15 37 146 23.5
13 Calgary Flames220 7 15 105 1.1
15 Edmonton Oilers212 16 47 96 17.3
17 Ottawa Senators201 3 65 100 2.8
24 Winnipeg Jets164 21 61 71 -5.2

Although, it;s unclear if the Revenue/Operating Income are estimates/projections for this year or estimates from last season (in which case they would still reflect the ASG numbers) - although the Franchise Value ($164M, +21%) obviously reflects the sale/relocation to TNSE.
These revenue figures must be from or based on last season's numbers. In that case, the Winnipeg Jets figures would be the Thrashers' estimated revenue from the 2010-11 season. On the face of it, there is no way the Jets would come in that low - it would mean the Jets revenue sans revenue sharing (which they would receive if they had only $71 million in revenue) would be under $60 million! Not likely given that the Jets' gate receipts alone - not including suite revenue (or local TV, central NHL revenues, advertising, signage, concessions, etc.) -- are likely well above $50 million. It appears the Franchise Value number, however, is meant to reflect the relocation to Winnipeg.


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Old
11-30-2011, 07:24 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAROONSRoad View Post
It appears the Franchise Value number, however, is meant to reflect the relocation to Winnipeg.
Thats what Im guessing, because theres no way Winnipeg could possibly rank 24th in value. Id hazard to guess its more in the range of a Calgary around 12th, and a large part of that because TNSE knows exactly what their doing. Secondly, I defy anyone to justify a valuation of app. $134M for Phoenix. In as much as I wish & hope for the survival of the franchise I havent got the slightest clue as to how they arrived at that figure.

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11-30-2011, 07:37 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
The value of the Houston Texans always shocks me.
Texans love football. 'nuff said.

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Old
11-30-2011, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Interesting, always like reading these.

And, if anyone cares to glance it over, attached is a quick chart of every NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL team by franchise value. Couldn't upload the Excel file directly, for some reason, so it's a three page pdf, with the color coding chart on the third page.

EDIT: ah, found a better way to do it. The attachment with the picture showing is better.
Crazy that football is as high as it is. Not shocking to see hockey 4th

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Old
11-30-2011, 08:43 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Thats what Im guessing, because theres no way Winnipeg could possibly rank 24th in value. Id hazard to guess its more in the range of a Calgary around 12th, and a large part of that because TNSE knows exactly what their doing. Secondly, I defy anyone to justify a valuation of app. $134M for Phoenix. In as much as I wish & hope for the survival of the franchise I havent got the slightest clue as to how they arrived at that figure.
Ultimately, the value of something is what someone is willing to pay for it. In the case of an NHL franchise in Winnipeg, that was reportedly around $170MM. As for the Coyotes, that remains to be seen. In order for the NHL to a) get most of its money back and b) find someone to keep the franchise in Glendale for X years, that most likely requires some type of tax payer subsidization by the COG.

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11-30-2011, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
The value of the Houston Texans always shocks me.
Since NFL teams split all TV money, and split ticket revenue (60% home/40% away) excluding luxury seating, teams with the most luxury seating and that own their own parking lots are the highest profiting. Go on Google Maps and do an overhead of FedEx Field. It's all those lots around there that make them one of the leagues most valued franchises.


Last edited by IU Hawks fan: 11-30-2011 at 10:50 PM.
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Old
11-30-2011, 08:56 PM
  #33
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Texans love football. 'nuff said.
Clearly not

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Old
11-30-2011, 09:46 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAROONSRoad View Post
Ultimately, the value of something is what someone is willing to pay for it.
Of course, yet here we are Ghost, agreeing to disagree yet again. The only reason TNSE dropped $170M on a franchise was because thats what they'd already promised to pay the league, their asking price for the Yotes at that time. Are you suggesting that on top of the $170M Thomson & Chipman wouldve paid more, based on Forbes's average valuation of what is it this year, $230M?. They paid a reasonable rate of $110M all-in for Atlanta to Winnipeg, boxing themselves in with the $170M offer for the Coyotes which the NHL then extorted as a relo fee. How is it that the Thrashers, Atlanta, is worth $110M with a population 10X's the size of & importance of Winnipeg in the scheme of things?. Hell, its more valuable than 2/3rds of the league, let alone Manitoba, Alberta, Ottawa, Vancouver, Montreal. Its completely disingenuous, artificial & phony to claim otherwise.

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11-30-2011, 09:48 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by supahdupah View Post
Apparently those revenue numbers are from last season. Winnipeg will be in huge trouble if they only pull $71m/a in revenue
You know they will pull more then that a year
Tickets alone will pull between 50-55 million a year.

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11-30-2011, 10:20 PM
  #36
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How are the Leafs only worth $521M while consistently posting $80M+ net income despite not even making the playoffs? That's over 15% ROI, and I'd imagine that there is no shortage of investors who'd be quite content with far less (say half, so double the valuation).

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11-30-2011, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Interesting, always like reading these.

And, if anyone cares to glance it over, attached is a quick chart of every NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL team by franchise value. Couldn't upload the Excel file directly, for some reason, so it's a three page pdf, with the color coding chart on the third page.

EDIT: ah, found a better way to do it. The attachment with the picture showing is better.
Thank you! That's very interesting.

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Old
11-30-2011, 10:49 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Semantics View Post
How are the Leafs only worth $521M while consistently posting $80M+ net income despite not even making the playoffs? That's over 15% ROI, and I'd imagine that there is no shortage of investors who'd be quite content with far less (say half, so double the valuation).
You tell me?. How is it that I have brokerage accounts & retirement funds that pay 3-5% with tax benefits and I should consider myself lucky like everyone else?. Yet my Grade 3 teachers pension fund earns a whopping 15%+?. All I can say is "Miss Page, you really ripped us off. Who knew you were so astute?. You couldnt have shared this kind of intuitive knowledge & instead you encouraged us all to follow our dreams"?. Great. Thanks. I'll remember that as I key open a can of Spam for Christmas when Im 64.

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11-30-2011, 11:08 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Of course, yet here we are Ghost, agreeing to disagree yet again. The only reason TNSE dropped $170M on a franchise was because thats what they'd already promised to pay the league, their asking price for the Yotes at that time. Are you suggesting that on top of the $170M Thomson & Chipman wouldve paid more, based on Forbes's average valuation of what is it this year, $230M?. They paid a reasonable rate of $110M all-in for Atlanta to Winnipeg, boxing themselves in with the $170M offer for the Coyotes which the NHL then extorted as a relo fee. How is it that the Thrashers, Atlanta, is worth $110M with a population 10X's the size of & importance of Winnipeg in the scheme of things?. Hell, its more valuable than 2/3rds of the league, let alone Manitoba, Alberta, Ottawa, Vancouver, Montreal. Its completely disingenuous, artificial & phony to claim otherwise.
I think we are speaking (writing?) at cross purposes here and frankly I don't get what you are getting at exactly, Killion. TNSE agreed to pay $170MM for an NHL franchise. In my opinion, they knew they were getting either the Coyotes or Thrashers for that price and were fine with it and planned accordingly.

I'm not suggesting anything regarding how much Thomson and Chipman would have paid for an NHL franchise in Winnipeg. I personally don't put much value in Forbes' estimate -- hence, as I stated, a franchise is worth whatever someone will pay for it.

The value of the franchise in ATL was worth very little, contrary to how impressed you are by that cities population and 'importance.' The Thrashers were for sale for $110MM to an Atlanta buyer. Guess what? No takers, hence the NHL allowed the relocation to a city with buyers willing to pay $170MM for an NHL franchise. You really think Atlanta is more 'valuable' to the NHL than 2/3rds of the current cities in the league, let alone Western Canada, Ottawa and Montreal combined -- MOD.


Last edited by Fugu: 12-01-2011 at 08:18 AM. Reason: ...
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11-30-2011, 11:46 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Semantics View Post
How are the Leafs only worth $521M while consistently posting $80M+ net income despite not even making the playoffs? That's over 15% ROI, and I'd imagine that there is no shortage of investors who'd be quite content with far less (say half, so double the valuation).
You don't know how much liabilities they have.

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Old
11-30-2011, 11:58 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by MAROONSRoad View Post
You really think Atlanta is more 'valuable' to the NHL than 2/3rds of the current cities in the league, let alone Western Canada, Ottawa and Montreal combined -- delusional.
Twisting my words?. A "successful" franchise in Atlanta would easily be worth what the Rangers are worth on Forbes List. In fact, more so, as Atlanta comes with considerably heavier weight classes in the corporate & media sectors. "No takers" in Atlanta was a set-up. A con-job. Do we need to re-visit?. If not for ASG's intransigence you'd be wondering about Shane Doan's retirement instead of Dustin Byfuglien's next move, who apparently wants out of town. I didnt say a healthy team in Atlanta was worth the Habs et al combined. I said & say a team in Atlanta is critical to the league & if run properly would be a a top 5 revenue generator, something Winnipeg will never be.

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12-01-2011, 01:49 AM
  #42
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A journalist was saying last night that 18 NHL teams are in financial trouble. Teams being at an all-ime high as faras value is questionable.

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12-01-2011, 01:52 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Twisting my words?. A "successful" franchise in Atlanta would easily be worth what the Rangers are worth on Forbes List. In fact, more so, as Atlanta comes with considerably heavier weight classes in the corporate & media sectors. "No takers" in Atlanta was a set-up. A con-job. Do we need to re-visit?. If not for ASG's intransigence you'd be wondering about Shane Doan's retirement instead of Dustin Byfuglien's next move, who apparently wants out of town. I didnt say a healthy team in Atlanta was worth the Habs et al combined. I said & say a team in Atlanta is critical to the league & if run properly would be a a top 5 revenue generator, something Winnipeg will never be.
Haha! You sound bitter, my friend. "Byfuglien wants out...Winnipeg will never be..." Even if true, what exactly does that have to do with anything?

Your fanciful idea that a hypothetical 'successful' Atlanta NHL team is 'critical' to the NHL and would automatically be a top 5 revenue generator if it actually existed is laughable. Obviously the NHL doesn't think it's as 'critical' as you do. I remember last year you telling me that the Thrashers would never be allowed to relocate to Winnipeg. How did that turn out?

I really don't see what makes you think Atlanta is somehow a top 5 revenue generating NHL city in your hypothetical NHL world. Based on what? Past history?

It is the 9th largest metro area in the USA - so it can't be based solely on size of the city. If you include Toronto, Atlanta is likely the 10th largest metro in North America. It is also not in an area known for following, playing or supporting 'ice hockey.'

What about Houston? A larger metro than Atlanta with a large corporate presence? Is it critical also?

Which are the 4 cities ahead of Atlanta: New York, Chicago, Toronto and Los Angeles? So, we can expect cities like Philadelphia, Dallas, Miami, San Francisco/San Jose, Boston, Washington and Montreal to be behind Atlanta in your hypothetical important NHL city list? Or how do you order the 4 ahead of Atlanta and the ones behind Atlanta.

And you tell us the hypothetical franchise will be worth as much as the NY Rangers? Impressive indeed! Dallas is a larger metro than Atlanta, the Stars won the Stanley Cup (successful enough?), and the team lost over $90 million over the past three years. Or is Dallas somehow not as good as an NHL market as Atlanta? Not successful enough or what?


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Old
12-01-2011, 03:40 AM
  #44
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GSC's multiple personality is upset

WAHHH!!

Still can't accept you're wrong, can ya big fella?!!!

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12-01-2011, 06:08 AM
  #45
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Indeed. In both instances color me confused. Not to mention Phoenix @134M. As Fugu notes above, the last paragraph looks like it was written by the league yet still, if they had in-put & wanted to paint a bleaker picture they couldve' done so. Either my math skills have become even more dyslexic than theyve always been or there truly is a whole bunch of stuff here thats not adding up or making any sense.
I've always been puzzled by the Forbes numbers.

Take for instance the operating income of the Flames vs Oilers. These are two frnachises that one would expect might have relatively similar cost structures outside of player salaries.

Now on the surface the Oilers would appear to have had a payroll that was about $10M less than the flames. However, that does not take into account $4.5M that the Oilers spent on Sheldon Souray's Hershey adventure, nor the substantial amount of money that they spent on upgrading their AHL team. So lets say that the player costs for the Flames last year were even $7M in excess of those of the Oilers.

With the Flames revenues being estimated at $9M more than those of the Oilers, the Oilers managed an operating income of $16M in excess of that estimated by Forbes of the Flames. This leaves a gap of about $18M once you factor in player costs to be explained.

Indeed the only teams that Forbes estimates to be more profitable than the 30th placed Oilers each have estimated revenues of $50M more than the Oilers.

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12-01-2011, 09:03 AM
  #46
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In no particular order...

The Houston Texans are valuable for a host of reasons:
The NFL expanded by 2 teams in the early 1990's, in Carolina and Jacksonville. Carolina was the first franchise to start those dreaded Personal Seat Licenses. When Art Modell ripped the Browns from Cleveland to become the Ravens, the NFL was forced to grant Cleveland another team. The NFL had 31 teams for a couple of years before granting the 32nd franchise to Houston. They had PSL's. The fans had to commit to some rather large ticket prices to have a franchise in the NFL. It certainly made the team financially successful.

Just off the top of my head, the valuations for the top three teams also have a somewhat unique instance of owning their playground. I know there are others, but I have to wonder if the estimated values by Forbes takes that into account. I know the top two NFL teams are the Redskins and Cowboys, by virtue that they own their playground.

I didn't follow the link, but I'd certainly like to know how Forbes came up with some of these valuations. I'd have to believe that for those teams that own their venue, that has to be calculated within the team valuation, and then of course they receive revenues for all other events that occur there.

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12-01-2011, 09:03 AM
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Forbes... Oh why do you do this to us?

Every year it's the same thing. Forbes publishes thier franchise value numbers and everyone gets in a snit because city X is valued at higher than city Y, and so on.

The numbers Forbes publishes mean NOTHING. A bunch of suits sit around the big table eating pizza and drinking shots of tequila and pulling numbers out of thier _____, and publish them. And then the fight breaks out.

Is Winnipeg worth $164 million? Who cares. I'm getting to watch NHL hockey with my kid. I don't care what rank the team is at.

Is Toronto worth $500 million + ?. We will find out if/when someone buys it.

Is some team that has been for sale for 3 years worth $134 million? Maybe it will be if it ever sells, but until then, it's actually worth nothing.


The reality is that the value of anything in the world ( sports teams, houses, my cat ) are only worth what somone is willing to pay for it, and that value only becomes reality, when the deal closes.

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12-01-2011, 09:21 AM
  #48
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Am I reading this right, or do only 12 teams have a positive operating income?

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12-01-2011, 09:29 AM
  #49
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Am I reading this right, or do only 12 teams have a positive operating income?
Who knows? Certainly not Forbes.

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12-01-2011, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by MAROONSRoad View Post
Haha! You sound bitter, my friend. "Byfuglien wants out...Winnipeg will never be..." Even if true, what exactly does that have to do with anything?

Your fanciful idea that a hypothetical 'successful' Atlanta NHL team is 'critical' to the NHL and would automatically be a top 5 revenue generator if it actually existed is laughable. Obviously the NHL doesn't think it's as 'critical' as you do. I remember last year you telling me that the Thrashers would never be allowed to relocate to Winnipeg. How did that turn out?

I really don't see what makes you think Atlanta is somehow a top 5 revenue generating NHL city in your hypothetical NHL world. Based on what? Past history?

It is the 9th largest metro area in the USA - so it can't be based solely on size of the city. If you include Toronto, Atlanta is likely the 10th largest metro in North America. It is also not in an area known for following, playing or supporting 'ice hockey.'

What about Houston? A larger metro than Atlanta with a large corporate presence? Is it critical also?

Which are the 4 cities ahead of Atlanta: New York, Chicago, Toronto and Los Angeles? So, we can expect cities like Philadelphia, Dallas, Miami, San Francisco/San Jose, Boston, Washington and Montreal to be behind Atlanta in your hypothetical important NHL city list? Or how do you order the 4 ahead of Atlanta and the ones behind Atlanta.

And you tell us the hypothetical franchise will be worth as much as the NY Rangers? Impressive indeed! Dallas is a larger metro than Atlanta, the Stars won the Stanley Cup (successful enough?), and the team lost over $90 million over the past three years. Or is Dallas somehow not as good as an NHL market as Atlanta? Not successful enough or what?
Completely agree, MR. I really enjoy Killion’s posts but he is just way off base with regards to the value Atlanta would have in the NHL. I’m not saying a team in Atlanta couldn’t be successful (i.e. profitable) but a top 5 revenue generator is out of the question, IMO.
Atlanta has the issue of competition from more “traditional” sports in the Southern region and is at a very tricky price point. Take this for what it is worth – I am dealing with a consultant from Atlanta and he mentioned that one of the issues concerning Thrasher’s attendance was a perception from some that the tickets were too expensive.
As anyone knows, financial success in the NHL is as dependant on what a team charges for tickets in addition to the # of bums in the seats. In my opinion, there is no way that Atlanta could charge the prices that Winnipeg charges now and fill the Phillips arena. Even a successful Atlanta team would not be more than middle of the pack in terms of revenue and not leaps and bounds over the likes of Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton etc.

Edit: Atlanta wasn't key enough for NBC to insist a franchise had to be there before signing it's latest TV deal with the NHL. I'm not market bashing here, as a well run team could make a go of it in Atlanta, but it wouldn't be a foundation for the NHL to be successful.


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