HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Bobby Ryan Being Shopped

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-30-2011, 07:14 PM
  #176
Prongo
Beer
 
Prongo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 13,877
vCash: 500
Well the BSB said the Flyers aren't interested in moving Scheen or JVR, so at least thats a good sign. I wouldn't want to lose either of them.

Prongo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:15 PM
  #177
Damaged Goods
Registered User
 
Damaged Goods's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 2,026
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Remember Ryan was drafted 2nd overall behind Crosby, Read is an undrafted college FA

Of course I'm not forgetting that. When it comes to pedigree and prestige, Ryan blows him out of the water. But there are numerous examples that such factors can be incredibly over-valued.

Damaged Goods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:15 PM
  #178
bryzgalovsky*
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 895
vCash: 500
"Murray has reached out to Paul Holmgren, but it doesnít appear the Flyers are willing to part with 20-year-old Brayden Schenn or the 2007 No. 2 overall pick James van Riemsdyk. Obviously Ryan, who was drafted No. 2 overall in 2005 behind Sidney Crosby, has ties to the area and the organizationís relationship with him would seem enticing, but the Flyers donít see Ryan as a big need right now."

http://www.csnphilly.com/blog/flyers...12&feedID=6572

bryzgalovsky* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:15 PM
  #179
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 13,189
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
I don't think the reality is anywhere near that vast.
IMO: Kimmo is a solid top-pairing defensive--Matt Carle is an adequate 2nd pairing defenseman.
Ryan is a solid top-line winger; Matt Read, at best, is an adequate 2nd line winger.

Jack de la Hoya is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:18 PM
  #180
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 13,189
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryzgalovsky View Post
"Murray has reached out to Paul Holmgren, but it doesnít appear the Flyers are willing to part with 20-year-old Brayden Schenn or the 2007 No. 2 overall pick James van Riemsdyk. Obviously Ryan, who was drafted No. 2 overall in 2005 behind Sidney Crosby, has ties to the area and the organizationís relationship with him would seem enticing, but the Flyers donít see Ryan as a big need right now."

http://www.csnphilly.com/blog/flyers...12&feedID=6572
I don't get it. I really don't. Not moving JVR makes sense. Not being willing to structure a trade around Schenn doesn't.

Ah well. I can enjoy the JVR-Roo-Ryan line on NHL12.

Jack de la Hoya is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:19 PM
  #181
Damaged Goods
Registered User
 
Damaged Goods's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 2,026
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
IMO: Kimmo is a solid top-pairing defensive--Matt Carle is an adequate 2nd pairing defenseman.
Ryan is a solid top-line winger; Matt Read, at best, is an adequate 2nd line winger.
There's a bigger difference between 1st and 2nd pairing than 1st line and 2nd line. Forward and defenseman production are also measured in different ways. I don't think the Timonen/Carle analogy is going to be very fruitful, whether or not we agree on its accuracy.

Damaged Goods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:22 PM
  #182
sobrien
RAFFLCOPTER
 
sobrien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South Jersey/Memphis
Country: United States
Posts: 6,581
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
I don't think the reality is anywhere near that vast.
I think Ryan has an 80-90 pt ceiling. He had a career high of 71 last year while not getting much PP time. I think most people here would be happy if Matt Read pushed 50pts each season of his career.

sobrien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:23 PM
  #183
sobrien
RAFFLCOPTER
 
sobrien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South Jersey/Memphis
Country: United States
Posts: 6,581
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I don't get it. I really don't. Not moving JVR makes sense. Not being willing to structure a trade around Schenn doesn't.

Ah well. I can enjoy the JVR-Roo-Ryan line on NHL12.
That's what mine is as well!

sobrien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:24 PM
  #184
SolidSnakeUS
Registered User
 
SolidSnakeUS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Pipersville, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 29,466
vCash: 500
Would love Ryan here, but to be honest, what kind of cap are we even able to really part with? Ryan has a 5.1M contract for at least 3 or 4 more years. We have Briere who has a NMC. Hartnell has a NTC. Giroux, JVR, Jagr and Couts are going no where. I doubt V goes considering he's been really good for us. Simmonds... he really, really slowed down his offense after the hot start. Talbot goes no where I think. Even with Lappy on LTIR, Shelley waived (please god be waived), and some people sent down, this would still not really work with our cap.

SolidSnakeUS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:24 PM
  #185
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 13,189
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
There's a bigger difference between 1st and 2nd pairing than 1st line and 2nd line. Forward and defenseman production are also measured in different ways. I don't think the Timonen/Carle analogy is going to be very fruitful, whether or not we agree on its accuracy.
That's fine--what analogy would you prefer?

In truth, I remain unconvinced that Read is or will be better than a good third-line player, but I figured that you were high on him, so I was trying to meet you part way.

The difference between Ryan and Read is large--both today and tomorrow. Read is a nice piece--a great find, but he's not someone you build a team around. Ryan is.

Jack de la Hoya is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:31 PM
  #186
Damaged Goods
Registered User
 
Damaged Goods's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 2,026
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
I think Ryan has an 80-90 pt ceiling. He had a career high of 71 last year while not getting much PP time.
He also plays on a line with Ryan Getzlaf and Corey Perry, which can't hurt his totals too much. I am not knocking what he has actually done, but I wouldn't be so sure that there is much more lurking beneath the surface that we haven't seen yet because of circumstantial deprivation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
I think most people here would be happy if Matt Read pushed 50pts each season of his career.
This goes back to my point about their perceived value. What people would be "happy with" is not relevant to the absolute success of the team or the player. The real issue is what Matt Read is realistically capable of, not what fans expect of him. Expectations for Ryan are much, much higher. But if one player is over-valued and the other is under-valued, they may be much closer than the perception.

Damaged Goods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:32 PM
  #187
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,413
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I don't get it. I really don't. Not moving JVR makes sense. Not being willing to structure a trade around Schenn doesn't.
I think it makes perfect sense. If it is Schenn for Ryan or Schenn and peanuts for Ryan ok. If its Schenn + 1st rounder + something else, that's a high price to pay. Schenn is the top prospect right now, and I know everyone (maybe not you specifically) is not happy with his performance this far, but the kid can play hockey. He may not wind up as flashy as Ryan with all the points, but I'd be willing to be that he'll be the more complete player in the end.

DrinkFightFlyers is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:34 PM
  #188
sobrien
RAFFLCOPTER
 
sobrien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South Jersey/Memphis
Country: United States
Posts: 6,581
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
Would love Ryan here, but to be honest, what kind of cap are we even able to really part with? Ryan has a 5.1M contract for at least 3 or 4 more years. We have Briere who has a NMC. Hartnell has a NTC. Giroux, JVR, Jagr and Couts are going no where. I doubt V goes considering he's been really good for us. Simmonds... he really, really slowed down his offense after the hot start. Talbot goes no where I think. Even with Lappy on LTIR, Shelley waived (please god be waived), and some people sent down, this would still not really work with our cap.
We have cap space right now because Pronger and Lilja are LTIR'd. Easiest way to free up cap space is Carle, Mez, or Hartnell. But Hartnell has a clause, and it's nearly impossible for us to move a defenseman right now. This is probably the worst time for Bobby Ryan to hit the market for us...

sobrien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:35 PM
  #189
SolidSnakeUS
Registered User
 
SolidSnakeUS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Pipersville, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 29,466
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
We have cap space right now because Pronger and Lilja are LTIR'd. Easiest way to free up cap space is Carle, Mez, or Hartnell. But Hartnell has a clause, and it's nearly impossible for us to move a defenseman right now. This is probably the worst time for Bobby Ryan to hit the market for us...
If we could get a Bobby Ryan type defenseman (what I mean is, is that one is literally around that kind of talent/cap/age for a d-man), we should go after that instead.

SolidSnakeUS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:38 PM
  #190
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 13,189
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think it makes perfect sense. If it is Schenn for Ryan or Schenn and peanuts for Ryan ok. If its Schenn + 1st rounder + something else, that's a high price to pay. Schenn is the top prospect right now, and I know everyone (maybe not you specifically) is not happy with his performance this far, but the kid can play hockey. He may not wind up as flashy as Ryan with all the points, but I'd be willing to be that he'll be the more complete player in the end.
I don't doubt Schenn's quality--that's why I think he's a viable centerpiece for a 24 year old winger with 100+ goals in his career.

I don't have a problem giving up a 2012 1st with Schenn for Ryan, because with Ryan, that pick is likely to be, at worst, in the 20-25.

But this is sort of beside the point--if the Flyers were not willing to give up the auxiliary assets with Schenn to get Ryan, I can understand that. The article above suggests that Schenn was a non-starter for Ryan. As I said before, that makes little sense to me.

Jack de la Hoya is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:40 PM
  #191
sobrien
RAFFLCOPTER
 
sobrien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South Jersey/Memphis
Country: United States
Posts: 6,581
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
He also plays on a line with Ryan Getzlaf and Corey Perry, which can't hurt his totals too much. I am not knocking what he has actually done, but I wouldn't be so sure that there is much more lurking beneath the surface that we haven't seen yet because of circumstantial deprivation.




This goes back to my point about their perceived value. What people would be "happy with" is not relevant to the absolute success of the team or the player. The real issue is what Matt Read is realistically capable of, not what fans expect of him. Expectations for Ryan are much, much higher. But if one player is over-valued and the other is under-valued, they may be much closer than the perception.
Me saying that we'd be happy with a 50pt a year Matt Read means that I'd put his capabilities around 40 points, give or take. Same with Ryan (EDIT: average capabilities around 70-80 pts). There are a lot of players off to slow starts this season (Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, etc.) who may be getting misused, and apparently Ryan is as well. We know what their capabilities are because we've seen what they can do, and justify improvement because of their youth or additions of teammates/etc.

Also back to your original questions of how Ryan and Read stack up, another point to ponder is that Ryan is 1 year younger and has 3.5 more seasons than Read under his belt already.

sobrien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:41 PM
  #192
Damaged Goods
Registered User
 
Damaged Goods's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 2,026
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
That's fine--what analogy would you prefer?

In truth, I remain unconvinced that Read is or will be better than a good third-line player, but I figured that you were high on him, so I was trying to meet you part way.

The difference between Ryan and Read is large--both today and tomorrow. Read is a nice piece--a great find, but he's not someone you build a team around. Ryan is.

Well, to be honest, I wasn't trying to solicit an analogy in the first place. It's difficult to figure, because Matt Read is very much a "wild card" right now, especially when it comes to amateurs like us trying to evaluate his talent.

My point is that when you strip away the sexiness and the name-appeal from Bobby Ryan and consider the Flyers "replacement level" talent in the top 9, how much are you really improving with such an acquisition? How much is that worth paying for, in terms of salary structure and assets? In my opinion, not nearly enough to match what the Ducks will be asking for. I think the price is going to be too high for the value.

Damaged Goods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:42 PM
  #193
Clancy
Registered User
 
Clancy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: South Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 291
vCash: 500
Rumors being shot down should mean nothing for us Flyers fans.

I don't know what else for Schenn is going, but he is still unproven at the NHL level. Ryan is a sure thing. Our team has played fairly well without Schenn, adding a 30 goal scoring power forward with sick hands and vision is only going to help us.

Ryan is what we hope JVR becomes, but is already, and is more consistent from what we've seen so far. Perhaps a reason of disinterest is the amount of turnover and trading players over the last year that they want to allow this group to continue developing chemistry.


Trade picks for a serviceable fill-in D, go after the big fish D in Free Agency.
Unless we have a big deal in place for a young stud on the blueline, we go and get Ryan.

Clancy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:42 PM
  #194
sa cyred
Yea....the Flyers...
 
sa cyred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Traveling...
Country: Cuba
Posts: 15,377
vCash: 500
Or...we can go for a d-man? Sbisa or Fowler please?

I'd easily trade Schenn for Fowler. Doubt the Ducks do it though.

sa cyred is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:42 PM
  #195
SolidSnakeUS
Registered User
 
SolidSnakeUS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Pipersville, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 29,466
vCash: 500
What the Flyers need isn't goal scoring, we need defense. Let me put it this way, I'd rather go after OEL or Fowler than Ryan, considering how it is right now.

SolidSnakeUS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:48 PM
  #196
Krishna
Registered User
 
Krishna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Canada
Posts: 82,048
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
What the Flyers need isn't goal scoring, we need defense. Let me put it this way, I'd rather go after OEL or Fowler than Ryan, considering how it is right now.
Thank you. Ive only been saying this since this "rumor" came out.. Yet no one listens

Krishna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:49 PM
  #197
SolidSnakeUS
Registered User
 
SolidSnakeUS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Pipersville, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 29,466
vCash: 500
I have to ask though, for Fowler, is he better defensively than Carle? Yes, serious question.

SolidSnakeUS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:49 PM
  #198
Krishna
Registered User
 
Krishna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Canada
Posts: 82,048
vCash: 50
Buffalo
Nashville
Philadelphia
Toronto
Vancouver

Teams listed by Bobby Mac.


So rangers out?

Krishna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:50 PM
  #199
Prongo
Beer
 
Prongo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 13,877
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwnz0rs View Post
Buffalo
Nashville
Philadelphia
Toronto
Vancouver

Teams listed by Bobby Mac.


So rangers out?
Where did you get this list?

Prongo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2011, 07:51 PM
  #200
SolidSnakeUS
Registered User
 
SolidSnakeUS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Pipersville, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 29,466
vCash: 500
Am I the only one who really likes Bob Mac?

SolidSnakeUS is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:19 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.