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Rangers at Canadiens...Nov 1/2003

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11-01-2003, 05:17 PM
  #26
Munchausen
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I'm looking forward to see if all that preaching in the media before the season started from management about having the players accountable for their actions was just BS to put the fans asleep or if measures will be taken after yet AN OTHER humiliating stinker like the one tonight. God! It seems that this team can only be good or awful. No in between. But you never know which one is going to show up from game to game... Jekyll or Hide...

I'm thinking about some vets that take it way too cool right now. Sundstrom, Rivet, Audette, Zednik and to a lesser extent Perreault. Is Gainey going to allow Audette to riverdance all night long on the ice for an other 20 games before shiping him where he belongs (minors). Is he going to tolerate the selfish play from Z who's clearly more than ever only looking to increase his stats. When he has the puck, you just know he's going to shoot even if there's a teammate wide open in the crease. Rivet and all his BS about being healthy and being able to take the body more (what body? his?).

Things have to be done here. There's no character whatsoever. Jesus Christ they gave up after one freakin goal against! I'm never going to blame the players when they give it all even if the end result is a loss but that kind of effort (or lack of) is downright shameful.

I'd put Audette in the stands for the next game. Call up Higgs. He might spark some energy among those softies. What is it with this god damn team that always looks great one night and utterly collapses the day after. Is it me or has this team been like this for 5 years now? Something seriously wrong here. Where are the leaders?

Nothing dramatic yet as we're playing for .500 but I'm pissed off about this kind of showing. I know I'd be mad if I paid $50 to go see that horrible display tonight. All that BS about having management make sure all the players give what they should needs to be applied. You cannot, just CANNOT stop working for 2 periods when you just don't feel like it or feel it's hopeless.

Man am I pissed! Might not be my most rational post but I hate to see that kind of horror movie. It disgusts the fan in me. I'm babling, but someone needs to get off his ass and kick a couple of others in that critical area too. There's nothing changed so far. The players give up, panic, play selfishly, etc. Being accountable for their actions? We'll see. So far it's only been words and nothing else...

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11-01-2003, 05:24 PM
  #27
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And here I bet we all thought Canada Post didn't work for the Habs. Yet, I think we all had perfect evidence they do, after all, the team mailed in the game after they were scored upon. What, no shutout no try? Someone get Bob Marley to remake his song "No woman no cry".

Expect changes before the next game against the Oil on Tuesday. After this debacle, surely Gainey will lower the boom on more than a couple of players who just don't seem to give a hoot while on the ice.

And the sad thing of it all is that the Habs had the game totally in hand until the tying goal. Perhaps it was the fact that it was a bit of a fluke considering there were four behind the puck, perhaps it was just that the Habs were expecting to shut out the Rag$ - a team that hasn't showed a whole hell of a lot in the last few years, or maybe it was the record the Habs had against them last year (4-0) but everyone gave up when they realized the Rag$ weren't going to roll over and die.

Though I haven't seen him play, I understand Plekanec is continuing his fine play in Hamilton. Wouldn't it be wonderful to see Perreault scratched in favour of the young Czech. Kilger might be ready to go, and placing him on the wing for Audette - benched in the latter stages of the game, would also be a pleasure to see. Higgins of course is waiting, and the injury to Ward might give him opportunity.

Anything but seeing some of these bozons.

~~

Notes:

Theo: The fourth goal was completely his fault. You can't give out that kind of rebound in the middle of the ice, it'll kill you almost every time. You could say the coverage wasn't great, but if the puck is deflected elsewhere, there's no goal. Other than that, you can't really fault his play. B

Hainsey: Well, I'm just not seeing the improvement that I was expecting in this kid, and quite honestly, though he was given lots of time tonight to show something, he failed once again. He just can't seem to put together a complete game and I don't know if its confidence (lack or too much) or laziness. He still has tons of potential, but if he can be used as bait to pull in something else, then I'd much rather see Komi - who I feel is a better defender anyhow (with more potential too) in the lineup. I'd still love to give him time to develop, but I think his attitude is a problem. D+

Brisebois: Basics, Breezer. Stick to them and you are a good defender, play like a twit with ridiculous passes and you can see your ice time diminish. C+

Quintal: Goal number two is on you, my friend. You can't keep retreating when players are attacking like that, you have to step in. First rule of defense. If your partner (souray in this case) goes off on a bad line change, you still have to play smart, and you did not. B-

Souray: Not a bad game for sure, in fact the first period was first rate. Unfortunately when the rest of the team went south, so did he, with numerous silly passing errors and that line change fiasco. Then again, his game didn't go nearly as south as did many others. B+

Rivet: Beaut coverage on goal three. Not. Leaving your man wide open at the side of the crease is inexcusable, though I don't think anyone really needs to say that. The shame of it all is his play continually makes Markov look bad. C-

Markov: I still think he was the best Hab defender, and I was careful to note everything he did. Still, he wasn't as sharp as usual. It's such a shame that he and Souray couldn't be paired together, because that would be a masterful pairing. Perhaps Komi would better suit at his side. B+

Ward: With apologies to Hab fans everywhere who love this guy because of the effort he gives, I would rather see him in Hamilton. He's painful to watch and really doesn't have the skill level necessary to make it at this level. Shame he got hurt - for him anyhow, because if he's out any length of time, I think his next stop will be Hamilton, and he might have trouble making it back. Ever. At least you can't fault his work ethic. B-

Begin: For two periods he was everything we needed him to be, but even in the third you could see him sag because of the collective lack of effort from everyone. B-

Langdon: Tonight, after the second Rag goal, he should have picked a fight. He still played a decent game, in fact I think he was one who worked until the final whistle, but he'll never, ever win you a game on his own. B+

Dackell: Virtually the same game you always get from him, except this time it was a little weaker on the defensive side of things - despite him ending up even in the +/- department. Then again, he can't be blamed in whole, because it was a team letdown. Team? Did I say team? It was a group individuality letdown. C+

Juneau: Tonight wasn't his best night, though he was still pretty good. He's another who doesn't give up, even though his legs might make it look like he does. We could have used a larger night from him, though. Was his back starting to ache? Bulis was taking a lot of draws for him... Another injury in the making? B

Bulis: Injured and still is probably the best Hab on the ice. Can we get this guy some consistent teammates please? A-

Ryder: Played a really good game, particularly with who he was stuck with again. The more his two linemates suck, the better he seems to play. If only we could give him people to play with that will work like he does - especially offensively. A-

Perreault: You waste. Power play and you go one on four. Where's yer sign? Least he got benched. D+ And I'm being generous cause you scored.

Audette: A decent first period followed by a steaming pile. And a benching - finally. D+ And I'm being generous cause you make more than me.

Hossa: The brightest aspect of tonight's game, in my opinion, is the continual improvement he showed again. He, and Bulis, were the hardest workers and Hossa was great in both ends just like the Janster. His board work continues to impress, and his defence continues to improve. A-

Ribeiro: Flashy one shift and invisible the next. He's got all the skill in the world but still can't apply it all to an NHL-calibre game on a consistent basis. Though the commentators love him so much I feel ill, I still don't think he's at a point where we can be happy with him as a number two centre without reservations. B-

Zednik: Hello. Two on one and Hossa has an acre to himself. And you? Yes, that's right, shoot. Eeeeediot Stimpy. You know, he may not be the best passer, but I really begin to suspect it's either envy or jealousy that keeps him from allowing Hossa to score. He's the ultimate anti-team player right now. C+

~~

And the sad thing is that this game was ours for the taking. Did the Habs get beaten cause they couldn't beat Dunham? Is that what got them down? Was it post Hallowe'en candy letdown? I don't get it. One great game, one horrid one. Gainey will have lost a layer of teeth grinding tonight.

To recap: Perreault and Audette - possible (read: hopeful) scratches. Ward possibly out. Juneau is a question mark. In? I'd love to see Higgins, Pleks, Kilger, and if his knee says so, Sax. Add to that Hainsey replaced by Komi and I'll be pleased as punch.

You know, I don't mind watching a loss. Not at all, particularly when it's a high intensity effort from the boys, especially at this stage in the rebuilding. But watching them self-destruct and just give up? That's embarassing. Really, some of those guys wearing that uniform should offer in resignations after a game like that.

As Hab fans, we have a right to see at *least* a full effort.

A disgruntled fan.

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11-01-2003, 05:46 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahan
So that's three 5+ goals against games / four games.

But they keep saying Theodore is at the top of his shape..
Are you saying it is just Theo's fault and no one elses? If so give your head a shake, it's a team effort out there and tonights was pretty bad by the team as a whole.

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11-01-2003, 05:50 PM
  #29
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Guy, you meantion Hossa as being the best Hab on the ice? I did not see this. Yes, he played well, but does he not know to carry the puck?

At one point in the first period, Hossa was one on one with Poti at the left halfboards, and he preceeded to softly tap the puck towards a Ranger defender to the far right of Mike Dunham. There were no other forwards in the zone, so how hard would it have been for Marcel to skate a bit ; maybe show a bit of his offensive talent and throw a deke? Put a little onto his shot? No, he wanted nothing to do with it.

I remember that two on one with Zednik, too. Richard put a good shot on net, although, you're right, he probably should have passed. However, why would he pass to Hossa in that situation? Zednik is smart enough to realize that he had a much better chance of scoring. For all we know, Hossa would have tried to foolishly pass right back to Zednik.

I like Marcel's skills, and he was banging a few bodies, but, if we could find the right forward to play with Juneau's line (aside from Bulis), I would much rather see Jan -- or even Kilger -- as the left wing on Ribeiro's line.

By the way, does anyone else think #20's nine shots on net are a positive sign?

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11-01-2003, 06:04 PM
  #30
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No...Zednik always gets tons of shots..NOthing new. I think hes a selfish player. Last season, when it became pretty clear the habs were not going ot make the playoffs and Zednik was kinda slumping, he would shoot from anywhere and everywhere. He would not pass it when everyone inlcuding him knew it was the better option. He was only interested in getting his 30 goals at the expense of the team. That being said, I too hope he starts lighting it up soon.

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11-01-2003, 06:07 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jl.roberts
At one point in the first period, Hossa was one on one with Poti at the left halfboards, and he preceeded to softly tap the puck towards a Ranger defender to the far right of Mike Dunham. There were no other forwards in the zone, so how hard would it have been for Marcel to skate a bit ; maybe show a bit of his offensive talent and throw a deke? Put a little onto his shot? No, he wanted nothing to do with it.
Exactly the kind of plays that makes me think Hossa isn't worth it. He always dumps the puck without trying..

Also, Guy!, Rivet C-? more like E- !
Damn, he's the worst Defenseman ever. Still made a lot of mistakes tonight... I've been wishing we get rid of him for the past two years and I'm desperated now.

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11-01-2003, 06:20 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jl.roberts
At one point in the first period, Hossa was one on one with Poti at the left halfboards, and he preceeded to softly tap the puck towards a Ranger defender to the far right of Mike Dunham. There were no other forwards in the zone, so how hard would it have been for Marcel to skate a bit ; maybe show a bit of his offensive talent and throw a deke? Put a little onto his shot? No, he wanted nothing to do with it.
That's the system buddy, you'll have to get use to it. The forwards are not allowed to take chances offensively. When a guy is alone, he dumps the puck. If line changes are being made, the puck is dumped once again. In that defensive mentality, no scoring chance for is better than a scoring chance against. It's not the players that want to dump it. It's the trap and CJ's defensive system that commands it. Not criticizing it, but we have to be able to understand what we see out there. That kind of play is what started the numerous debates on boring hockey. The players are not allowed to dipseedoodle their way through the offensive zone because if they cough up the puck, it could create a turnover.

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11-01-2003, 06:26 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchausen
...
I'd actually say it was more of a quick pass to no-one, in order to save himself from being hit by Big-Bad Poti.

As I've said, I appreciate his talents, but at this early stage in Marcel's career, there's nothing he can do that Kilger, Bulis, or Ryder can't.

I mean, good for Marcel if he's playing Julien's system. I really like that commitment to team defence on his behalf, but why not fire one on goal. Surely Julien would rather see one of his younger players shoot the puck hard on net than simply give it away to the ever talented Rangers blueline?

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11-01-2003, 06:39 PM
  #34
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Ah, we all knew it would end this way and we all know that the habs won't make the playoffs this season. Just take the chance to enjoy the reemergence of a storied franchise one kid at a time. 2007 will be our year.

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11-01-2003, 07:40 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Good, Nice And Warm
Ah, we all knew it would end this way and we all know that the habs won't make the playoffs this season. Just take the chance to enjoy the reemergence of a storied franchise one kid at a time. 2007 will be our year.

Hossa is a dog. A dumb dog. With a bad do.

 
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11-01-2003, 07:52 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Bo
Hossa is a dog. A dumb dog. With a bad do.
How about we trade everyone, and gets midgets on skates?

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11-01-2003, 08:10 PM
  #37
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I feel sorry for Zednik playing on a line with Ribeiro and Hossa. He worked like a Tasmanian devil to get shots while the limpwrist and the sedated one just watched. I noticed that Julien put Langdon on his line when it was too late.

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11-01-2003, 09:14 PM
  #38
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And you just know if we dealt Hossa and Ribeiro away that they'd be pivotal players wherever they went. Wanna know why? The pressure, media and bad vibes when they lose is a reason yes. But the veterans on this team happen to be the biggest lazies of all the league's team leaders. Koivu's scoring makes up for his lassez-faire ways, but Rivet, Quintal and Juneau's sucking and lack of leadership is inexcusable. The veterans Audette, Perreault and Brisebois also refuse to take a responsible role either which is cowardly and selfish because they are fine with the others being those types. Why can't they get everyone on the same damn page? B. gainey will be mulling over this situation.

Look at Czerkawski. He goes from some 30, 20 goal seasons to a disastrous effort in Montreal where it looked like he had no sense of urgency or someone whipping his ass. At least on the Isles you have Mike Peca setting you straight. Who was gonna tell Czerk what to do in Habland? Captain Koivu? People might say, oh but he just had one bad year and he's out to prove it was a fluke. Trust me, if he really wanted it so bad he would've turned it around in Mtl. last year. And he got ice time too. Mind you, he's also with better players in Long Isle but I see a spark on him this time. It happened with other flops we've seen over the years; Hoglund, Tucker, countless prospects/busts like Wilkie, Matt Higgins, Terry Ryan and Brad Brown, Thornton, Baron, Sergei Berezin (doubled his goal total on Chi/Wsh than the season with Phx/Mtl). I can go on here. It all stems from bad internal leadership I think. Why do you think these guys were all much better elsewhere? Bad coaching can be another attributing factor.

I remember some comments from Petrov once he got traded saying how the team was not cohesive and basically had certain leaders for each department: defensive forwards, d-men, scoring forwards French-Canadians, Euros and North American English guys but no banding together of those sectors. Guys listened to different people and it made for poor play. They just don't play as a team I think. Once a good player is put on a team where one guy can be the motivating leader (usually, the captain does this type of thing), he excels.

It's been the team's problem ever since dealing Muller (which caused a missed playoffs in 95 but upped the scoring talent with Malakhov and Turgeon coming in) and then worst of all, Roy, who had been their most effective leader since the late 80s. They sucked as a coheisve team in their absences and no playet could ever get the guys together again. Not guys who aren't captain material such as Turgeon, Damphousse then Koivu. The reason they could make the playoffs was because of talent. Then, when they had so little of it thanks to Houle, they played above their abilities in 1999-2000 thanks to a proven leader, Trevor Linden and in his abscence, Brian Savage (true, both were not so great but were key guys in the dressing room). But those guys getting hurt a lot gave the team motivation to play hard. 2000-01 was a complete wash thanks to a dreadful first half caused Hackett's hand injury and Theo being out of shape from missing part of training camp (gee, there's a surprise).

What will help is a wholesale loss of 90% of these vets so the young guys can come in and grow as a team with the older ones (being Koivu, Bulis, Souray, Zednik) showing the way. Then we can have Ryder, Katstitsyn, Higgins, Komisarek, Plekanec, Perezhogin, Ferland and Hainsey grow as teammates. Then we may see one or two of them become clear-cut leaders. But someone has to show them how of course. That has to be instilled somewhat.

God, then this team can progress as a unit (look at the core components of Ottawa-Hossa, Bonk, Alfredsson, Havlat, Redden, Phillips-they've been together for 7 years, minus Havlat). What group of players has been with the Habs that long? Koiuv and Rivet. No wonder they're buddies. But they actually can stand by and let this happen while in Ottawa they have confidence in each other. This team the Habs must do it right. No, holding back rookies or trading away key prospects for quick gains. A lot of people think we could really see some great stuff if we lucked out in the Ovechkin sweepstakes. But with things the way they are and most of these vet jack@sses still here, he will struggle big time under a terrible situation. Unless they let him be himself and give leadership and guidance. Kovalchuk would've had the same problem if he had been dealt to Mtl. that close call at the 2001 draft. The environment of this team does not allow for success from young, useful, talented players whether the system be offensive or defensive.

Some fans, ignorant ones, will hate it but I like it. Let this lineup grow and if a few fall short, maybe make some moves to strengthen it but let's be patient with this:
Ryder-Koivu-Katstitsyn
Higgins-Ribeiro/Hossa-Perezhogin (a great trio)
Bulis-Hossa/Plekanec-Ward
Ferland-Kilger-goon
D-men:
Markov-Souray
Hainsey-Komisarek
Beauchemin-Shasby/Archer

This has so much potential if we can just get rid of these bums such as Perreault (the worst team leader in goals of all NHL teams except maybe Pitt. or Carolina), Audette, etc.
Just hope it comes true. These days are hard to deal with but are maybe worth it in the long run. Look at Ottawa, the model for all rebuilding teams. At least when they were young and rising, they had vets to push the team such as Randy Cunneyworth. I wonder if Gainey went off on the team after this debacle and called out the vets, saying they should be more desperate because most are "playing for jobs." I honestly think guys like Perreault, Audette and Juneau would be content to coast, collect their paychecks, not be good enough to trade and then play really well when the contracts run out but go at the deadline thus fetching way less value. B@stards.

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11-01-2003, 09:20 PM
  #39
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That may be the worst game I have seen, in a number of years. What more can be said?

This team just lacks a work ethic, on so many levels. It's there one game, and disappears for a large interval.

From Ribeiro thinking he's the only player on the ice, to the defence falling asleep (Souray aside), the players largely look uninterested.

Gainey needs to try and make some serious roster changes. As a long time fan, I cannot stomach to watch this team play much longer. It is so boring, and unexciting... I'd rather watch a young, hard-hitting, physical team lose, than this collection of misfits.

Bring in the Langdon's, the Begins... etc.. get rid of the jokers who float for a paycheck. Call up the rookies, who have the drive to make an effort.

Come on Bob, give us a hockey team.... one that plays hockey with passion.

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11-01-2003, 09:56 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jl.roberts
I'd actually say it was more of a quick pass to no-one, in order to save himself from being hit by Big-Bad Poti.

As I've said, I appreciate his talents, but at this early stage in Marcel's career, there's nothing he can do that Kilger, Bulis, or Ryder can't.
I took note of the play you're referring to as I felt it accurately described Hossa's game with the puck: hesitant. He seems too cautious and lacking in confidence when he's got control of the puck. In some glimpses he's shown some tremendous vision and authority with the puck, but they've been too few times.

The bright side is he's beginning to take more authority without the puck; from hitting, to play along the boards, to driving the net, and most importantly in his own zone. This is a good thing. Most prospects are good with the puck first, and take years to learn how to play properly without the puck.

Now, on the play you're referring to, Hossa was 1 on 1 with Poti. There was de Vries on the other side coming back, and Zednik streaking towards the net on the far right side (you couldn't see him in the picture until a second after the play). It was a weak play, but it wasn't a dump in by any means; he was trying to set up Zednik.

This play magnifies the problem with Hossa in that he needs to gain some confidence with the puck or the Habs need to work on offensive drills. It was said that Julien had done minimal offensive drills through training camp and in the early season, and I think it's showing with Hossa. He could use some drills to work on plays like this, gain some confidence in using his speed, size, strength and puckhandling abilities, because he's got the entire package. And at this point in the season, his skill level and potential shown is exceeding my expectations of the past few years.

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11-02-2003, 01:09 AM
  #41
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5-1 Rangers ... didn't see it anywhere

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11-02-2003, 03:37 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Hab-a-maniac
It happened with other flops we've seen over the years; Terry Ryan. Why do you think these guys were all much better elsewhere? Bad coaching can be another attributing factor.
Yeah Terry Ryan done a lot better when he left the Habs . He just was promoted to the Corner Brook Royals in the Newfoundland Senior League.

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11-02-2003, 04:25 AM
  #43
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again

we've scored in 2 games in row ...keep it up guys

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11-02-2003, 06:18 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Hab-a-maniac
It's been the team's problem ever since dealing Muller (which caused a missed playoffs in 95 but upped the scoring talent with Malakhov and Turgeon coming in) and then worst of all, Roy, who had been their most effective leader since the late 80s. They sucked as a coheisve team in their absences and no playet could ever get the guys together again.

.
Your post is very passionate and although I do not agree with every aspect of it, I agree as a whole. Leadership has been a problem. I love Koivu, I really do. He plays way over his head and is willing to sacrifice everything to play hard. That said....I know that there has always been an english and french side of this team, but they used to be able to unite around the simple task of winning games for the sweater.

Maybe it is only that the times have changed, but that spirit of team does not seem to be there. You cannot tell that from this one loss to a train wreck team, but it shows on an overall basis.

The worse past, the best leadership that Koivu's aura gave was when he was sick and away from the team. Then the troops rallied. What a shame. This guy has more heart then the rest of the top two lines combined and is definately the best overall player on the roster, it just never seems to catch on...on the ice or in the locker room.

Gainey once said, if a player's car breaks down on the highway, if the first person he calls is not a team mate, then we have a problem. Now that seems a little extreme, but....I think that most of these guys would just call CAA.

Keep the faith.....it is harder and more rewarding to love a team that is struggling (they might turn it around) then a team that is stacked and always wins. Only kids do that.

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11-02-2003, 06:38 AM
  #45
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Man I am glad I had to work and miss the game... the big picture here is we are 6-6, but ya gotta beat the Rags! :mad:

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11-02-2003, 06:39 AM
  #46
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Stop blaming Koivu for the leadership issue , you don't need the 'C' or a 'A' to bring something to the table . The question is : 'who can ''blast'' another player who don't get the job done ?' .... none except few individuals like Souray and Quintal .

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