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Draft: Danger - Bertrand Raymond

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Old
11-30-2011, 06:08 PM
  #76
Krnage
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Hey guys look...I can play Raymond's game also!!!

2007 entry draft

The Flyers at 41 overall select Kevin Marshall
The habs at 43 overall select PK Subban

the 2004 nhl entry draft

The Flyers at 149 pick Gino Pisellini
The Habs at 150 pick Mikhail Grabovski

OmGZ the FLYURZ r the StuPiD!1111!!!1!!!
at least Kevin Marshall played some NHL games....fischer NOT

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11-30-2011, 06:08 PM
  #77
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So, if we draft the wrong player, we lose, if we draft the right player, we lose too? What the hell is this guy on about? I don't know any french, would love to, but if it means not having to read this garbage, maybe I'm better off without, lol.

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Old
11-30-2011, 06:11 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
So, if we draft the wrong player, we lose, if we draft the right player, we lose too? What the hell is this guy on about? I don't know any french, would love to, but if it means not having to read this garbage, maybe I'm better off without, lol.
haha! pretty much.

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Old
11-30-2011, 06:12 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
If his drafting has been so stellar, why isn't the team better?
Because we hand assets away like candy and signed over paid free agents to do a less effective job.

We should probably consider Timmins for the next GM imo.

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11-30-2011, 06:15 PM
  #80
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Funny part is it's people like him that make many Quebecois players not want to play here

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11-30-2011, 06:20 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
The 2003 and 2006 drafts "killed" the Habs (in terms of Stanley Cup contending team.)

In 2003, if you need a big center, you don't draft A.K. in the first, nor Uruqhart in the second... Getzlaf or Carter, Bergeron or Shea Weber, should wear the CH... You can even grab Backes instead of Lapierre !!!!

In 2006, If you have already Getzlaf and Weber, you don't have to draft Fischer, and you go with Giroux in the 1st. You don't draft Maxwell, and grab Lucic. In the third, you can certainly draft better than White: Marchand and Clutterbuck were still available.

And with all the other good picks, you got a Cup contender. No need to get the Cammy, Gomez, Gionta, Tanguay, etc....
Holy crap dude. I didn't realize it until now but now that you mention it I see the light

You do realize I could make one of these for any team in the league and make them look equally stupid right? Also Timmins isn't really to blame for most of the time having low 1sts. When he had top 5 he got Price. Let's face it he did a great job there.

Scouting isn't this teams problem dude, Timmins already picked 25 guys who are playing in the NHL. That's a lot especially considering they're mostly lower rounds. For every Fisher there is a Subban, for every AK (who is still a great player) we get a Pacioretty who is awesome.

It isn't nearly as bad as you make it seem. Best of all the kids that do fit in with the squad have the right work ethic, talent and character. They're all of a certain mold. So while there have been Latendresse's and Sergei Kostitsyn's, there have been guys like AK who are severely underrated around here. What about that guy Yanick Weber? He's young but coming along.

People are way too pessimistic.

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Old
11-30-2011, 07:00 PM
  #82
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After reading the article, especially the Price/Pouliot part I am wondering that if with any luck we had won the lottery in 2005 and chose Sydney Crosby at no. 1, would he have written an article saying that we should have chosen Pouliot instead of Crosby...

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11-30-2011, 08:03 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by nhlplayer7777 View Post
After reading the article, especially the Price/Pouliot part I am wondering that if with any luck we had won the lottery in 2005 and chose Sydney Crosby at no. 1, would he have written an article saying that we should have chosen Pouliot instead of Crosby...
Naw...Pouliot is franco Ontarien not quebequois. He'd be going on about Alex Bourret
(that's right...who? the star player for the Witchita Thunder)

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11-30-2011, 08:07 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Halifaxhab View Post
Naw...Pouliot is franco Ontarien not quebequois. He'd be going on about Alex Bourret
(that's right...who? the star player for the Witchita Thunder)
So is Giroux.

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11-30-2011, 11:12 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
If the Habs were terribly concerned about building up their defense in 2006, why would they trade down? Why not the best Dman? Of course they received something for moving down, which gave them an extra pick, but I would have gone for quality over quantity. I had Meszaros in mind atthe time. As for a big center, I presume the Habs brain trust thought they already had their man in Chipchura from the 2004 draft (a pick better than that of Fischer but not awe inspiring).
Traded down 'cause they believed that in 2006 you had as much chance with quantity than quality. And as far as the D's are concerned, from Wishart, to Mitera, Vish, Persson ( who I liked as well), Sanguinetti...geez, they weren't that far from the truth. Meszaros was drafted in 2004. As far as Chipchura is concerned, even at the time, without the ankle injury and whatever came after, the Habs presented Chipchura at draft day as a future 3rd line centerman with captain leadership material. When you already target a guy as a 3rd line center, chances are he won't become more than that.

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Originally Posted by CaptainC View Post
Ok so we would have drafted Giroux, a 5'11'' center while we had, Ribeiro, Koivu and pleckanec in the system who are all 5'11'' centermen....yeah right.
The Price pick didn't matter when we had Theodore. It doesn't matter to take a small guy when you can actually trade the guy who drafted or trade the guys you're talking about right after. Habs are still mentioned as one of the smallest teams out there and especially with the new core we bought. Yet, they still end up picking small players like Gallagher. And thank god they did. Though we do need in the end a better mix in players, if needed, you hope they will trade their smaller players we can do without to bring the size and grit we need. But it can't be detrimental to real talent which will always prevail no matter the size.

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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Bertrand Raymond and Réjean Tremblay have strong chauvinist leanings that turn my stomach.The big difference between them is that Tremblay is more intelligent and a better writer. At least I give one devil his due.
Tremblay is not more intelligent when he speaks about the Habs. And when a guy is driven from the hate he has towards an organization since the day they've thrown them out of the plane, and when Mario Tremblay threw him out of his coaching room, his intelligence stopped impressing me. Even though I know he is fine when he talks about something else than Habs.

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Originally Posted by Halifaxhab View Post
I can't wait for the Nordiques to return so Raymond can have his bromance with them instead of pretending to care about covering the HABS
This has to stop. People seriously believe that with the return of the Nordiques, all the people you hate will suddenly move? Don't you know that it's funnier to bash and provoke than to praise and have fun? I'm pretty sure that it will be as awful as it could be. Even moreso, chances are they'll use the Nords success, if any, to keep bashing the Habs....and especially if the Nords have 6 francos and we have 3. You will never hear the end of it. And they'll make sure you don't by staying put.

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Originally Posted by Halifaxhab View Post
He really has a hard time finding solid upper end talent sometimes (most of the time, McDonagh Subban and Pacioretty aside), it's like there is too much for him to focus on. At the time Fisher seemed like a fairly safe pick. But I don't think we should be gambling a 1st or 2nd rd pick on a high school player.
Fischer was nothing but a safe pick. Was known as a true raw boom or bust potential. Honestly, I have seen a lot of camps, from rookie to development to pro camps. And I have never seen such a weaker shot than what Fischer had. Never. Including the invitees who looked like they were coming from the Pee-Wee level. Now, there's more to it than shot, that's true. But I have never seen any offensive potential in this guy. The only thing I liked from him was his smooth skating stride and how he was positionnally defensively. Yet, you knew that for a tall guy, he had TONS of muscles to put on his incredibly thin frame 'cause he was getting killed out there by much smaller players. Seen a lot of games from him in Minny, and he was getting rocked by 5'8'' guys. Easily. And often. So there were A LOT of things to work on. Clearly a case of letting him there 4 years in the NCAA. And then have AT BEST, 2 years in the AHL and a first shot in the NHL at year 7......does it make any sense, to draft a 1st rounder with that much of work ahead? And a chance to see him at 25? Not for me. That's the type of d-men you start picking much later on.

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Originally Posted by Halifaxhab View Post
And Bertrand Raymond seems to omit that a Centreman that would have made a better choice than Giroux at the time based on our needs would have been Berglund...but hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good imagined Habs are anti-francophone story.
Bertrand Raymond has no idea who those players are. Actually he had no idea who Giroux was until last night. Joking aside, I had Berglund and Giroux on my list. Was really close. My obsession for big centermen could have made me choose Berglund. If we would have went the center way before 2006, my pick would have surely be Giroux. But if we would have picked Berglund and he would have done okay, it would have been tougher even for him to bash that much. But it's not tough to bash an organization when the gap is so big as a top 10 talent in the league and a guy who might stick as a career AHL'er.

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Originally Posted by wedge View Post
I hate when people, especially journalists, bash our team for mistakes made 5 years before. Nobody knew who Giroux was at the draft. Timmins would have been criticised for taking another small center who was ignored by all the CHL one year before.
Thing is, when you criticize a guy the day of the draft, we are told to shut up 'cause you don't win a draft the day of it, but 5 years later when you know the end-result of it. I believe that any job should not be substract to criticisms and analysis. But you hope that when people do the analysis, that they take more into account than 1 move to know if a guy is great or bad. I've already mentioned that Timmins was very good. But 2003 and 2006 were unfortunately pivotal in a team's success. Chances are so will 2007, but not his fault if we traded one of our pivots for a "great" centerman....

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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
If his drafting has been so stellar, why isn't the team better?
His drafting has been very good. Not his fault if the management mishandled the players he chose. Not his fault if the trades weren't up to par. A whole lot of no fault for him. I wished his 1st rounders would have been better. But in resume, I believed he has done his part.

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Originally Posted by alexstream View Post
Raymond has always been misinformed and still is...

Fischer wasn't Timmin's decision. That's the ONE year we drafted positionally cause we were lacking Dmen.
Of course you can blame Timmins for having Fischer on his list... but the other dmen sucked too (Mitera, Wishart, Sanguinetti). We should just have gone BPA as usual of course. For once I blame Gainey on this one (and usually always am on Gainey's side)
I can't say I have insides. I usually don't. So I'm not going to pretend that I'm on the know and stuff.....but sometimes I happened to have some infos. And I can tell you that until Timmins is there, it will ALWAYS be Timmins decisions. No matter if there's a management philosophy and all, Timmins is in charge. So if he would not have agreed with the "needs" philosophy, he would not have chosen D's. Timmins didn't like Giroux at the Habs combine and loved Mathieu Carle. That's reality. And Timmins liked Fischer and went with the guy who was suggeseting him as well. And he already mentioned it, but everybody knows Timmins has is VERY pro-US. From the way they are developing their guys, to the fact that you have 4 years to see them and all, Timmins strongly believes in US product. And honestly, he's not far from the truth, but personnally I think he exagerates a little if not too much.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
When Pronger and Timonen leave in not too long, I wonder who's gonna regret their drafting the most between the Habs and Flyers
The drafting becomes a problem when the trades and the UFA's can't make up for it. I mean, who are the best scoring forwards Philly has drafted since 2003? Richards, Carter, Giroux, JVR. We can't say that they received some significant scoring forwards for Richards and Carter thogh Voracek is doing a good job. Yet, what makes up for it as far as this year is concerned. Amongst a few things....Matt Read.

We had to be ourselves a core. And yet, we are still not known as an offensive threat. So that's our problem and we need to fix it. I know, Philly has their problems, and actually they are discussing it as we speak. See, not drafting a goalie would not have been a problem if they would have been able to get one via UFA or trades....but they are still looking as we speak. That's their problems. We have ours. And we talk about ours.

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Old
12-01-2011, 12:08 AM
  #86
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Just to name a few, here is where Timmins ***** up big time:

2002:
- Drafted Chris Higgins over Cam Ward

2003:
- Drafted Andrei Kostitsyn over Jeff Carter, Dustin Brown, Brent Seabrook, Zach Parise, Ryan Getzlaf, Ryan Kesler, Mike Richards, Corey Perry, Loui Eriksson, Patrice Bergeron
- Drafted Maxime Lapierre over David Backes

2004:
- Drafted Kyle Chipchura over Travis Zajac, Mike Green or Brandon Dubinsky

2005:
- Drafted Guillaume Latendresse over Kristopher Letang

2006:
- Drafted David Fischer over Claude Giroux
- Drafted Ben Maxwell over Milan Lucic

2008:
- Traded 25th overall draft pick to Calgary for Alex Tanguay, could of drafted Tyler Ennis or John Carlson

2009, 2010 and 2011 all look bright with Leblanc, Tinordi and Beaulieu but only time will well.

So imagine a team with:

Cam Ward, Travis Zajac, Jeff Carter, Kris Letang, Claude Giroux, Milan Lucic and Tyler Ennis in Montreal with Pacioretty, Subban and the rest?

I can't sleep now!!!


Last edited by Majik1987: 12-01-2011 at 03:53 PM.
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Old
12-01-2011, 12:20 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
Just to name a few, here is where Timmins ****** up big time:

2002:
- Drafted Chris Higgins over Cam Ward

2003:
- Drafted Andrei Kostitsyn over Jeff Carter, Dustin Brown, Brent Seabrook, Zach Parise, Ryan Getzlaf, Ryan Kesler, Mike Richards, Corey Perry, Loui Eriksson, Patrice Bergeron
- Drafted Maxime Lapierre over David Backes

2004:
- Drafted Kyle Chipchura over Travis Zajac, Mike Green or Brandon Dubinsky

2005:
- Drafted Guillaume Latendresse over Kristopher Letang

2006:
- Drafted David Fischer over Claude Giroux
- Drafted Ben Maxwell over Milan Lucic

2008:
- Traded 25th overall draft pick to Calgary for Alex Tanguay, could of drafted Tyler Ennis or John Carlson

2009, 2010 and 2011 all look bright with Leblanc, Tinordi and Beaulieu but only time will well.

So imagine a team with:

Cam Ward, Travis Zajac, Jeff Carter, Kris Letang, Claude Giroux, Milan Lucic and Tyler Ennis in Montreal with Pacioretty, Subban and the rest?

I can't sleep now!!!
i am so ****ing fed up with this ******** reasoning....


Last edited by Majik1987: 12-01-2011 at 03:53 PM. Reason: qe
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Old
12-01-2011, 02:19 AM
  #88
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He's right about Giroux. Fanbase have been crying about having a french star forward for years and this guy had talent. Yet this is an org. obsessed with American Ds. It's like letting Lafleur slipping buy. It was an unexcusable and I was disgusted the very day of that draft. Now Giroux is close to being the league's best forward. Serge Savard would never have let this go.

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12-01-2011, 02:45 AM
  #89
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If I could go back in time, I could pick the winning 6/49 numbers and then quit my job tomorrow... knowhatimean?

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12-01-2011, 03:05 AM
  #90
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If I could go back in time, I could pick the winning 6/49 numbers and then quit my job tomorrow... knowhatimean?
Not in this case. They had a talented french kid ripe for the taking. Serge Savard would have NEVER let Giroux go. When the Habs failed to notice and draft Luc Robitaille, Ronald Corey called a meeting with the whole management and all the scouts and proceeded to give them Hell like you wouldn't believe. He said "I never want to see something like that ever happen!". The management of the time made sure that drafting french kids with talent was a priority. It was a mindset that got lost over time with different people. Goat just see himself as just another GM and doesn't have to do things differently.

Also back then they had a desire to win that it's not there as much from Goat.

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12-01-2011, 04:47 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
The 2003 and 2006 drafts "killed" the Habs (in terms of Stanley Cup contending team.)

In 2003, if you need a big center, you don't draft A.K. in the first, nor Uruqhart in the second... Getzlaf or Carter, Bergeron or Shea Weber, should wear the CH... You can even grab Backes instead of Lapierre !!!!

In 2006, If you have already Getzlaf and Weber, you don't have to draft Fischer, and you go with Giroux in the 1st. You don't draft Maxwell, and grab Lucic. In the third, you can certainly draft better than White: Marchand and Clutterbuck were still available.

And with all the other good picks, you got a Cup contender. No need to get the Cammy, Gomez, Gionta, Tanguay, etc....
Most good players we take don't pan out to be stars here. It's a toxic mix of great party town, crazy media, coaches willing to put vets in at the expense of growing rookies for fear of losing with them and ****** pro scouting. If we take most of these guys, I really doubt they're as good as they are now. Giroux would be another Plekanec at best. But in Philly he got to grow with great offensive players like Briere, Carter, Richards and Van Riemsdyk, etc. We're not the most ideal place for a great prospect to go.

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12-01-2011, 05:00 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Not in this case. They had a talented french kid ripe for the taking. Serge Savard would have NEVER let Giroux go. When the Habs failed to notice and draft Luc Robitaille, Ronald Corey called a meeting with the whole management and all the scouts and proceeded to give them Hell like you wouldn't believe. He said "I never want to see something like that ever happen!". The management of the time made sure that drafting french kids with talent was a priority. It was a mindset that got lost over time with different people. Goat just see himself as just another GM and doesn't have to do things differently.

Also back then they had a desire to win that it's not there as much from Goat.
I'm pretty sure Gauthier wants to win, you do an above-average job in the town like Savard did - nothing on Selke or Pollock, just good - and you get peons written to you.

I think their process is average and the org has more cobwebs than grandma's attic, but they do want to win. Also, seriously, Ron Corey? The guy who helped run off Chelios, Roy, Damphousse, Keane and Turgeon and Savard himself? He had a desire to win?

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12-01-2011, 05:02 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Hab-a-maniac View Post
Most good players we take don't pan out to be stars here. It's a toxic mix of great party town, crazy media, coaches willing to put vets in at the expense of growing rookies for fear of losing with them and ****** pro scouting. If we take most of these guys, I really doubt they're as good as they are now. Giroux would be another Plekanec at best. But in Philly he got to grow with great offensive players like Briere, Carter, Richards and Van Riemsdyk, etc. We're not the most ideal place for a great prospect to go.
It's about ****** development more than anything. Everything you say was true in the 70s and we developed fine. There are other cities that like to stay up late and have a vicious media that can develop talent.

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12-01-2011, 07:40 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
Just to name a few, here is where Timmins ****** up big time:

...

2009, 2010 and 2011 all look bright with Leblanc, Tinordi and Beaulieu but only time will well.
Until two years from now, when some player you've never heard of, drafted after one of these guys, turns out good, then you can add Leblanc or Tinordi to your wall of infamy.

Oh, and Timmins isn't the guy who traded the pick for Tanguay so that isn't on him.

Really, all of you shamans who would magically roll a 100% efficiency on drafting 18 year old kids are wasting your time on us peons here. You really need to go knock on the door of some NHL team and draft them right to an Oilers type dynasty.

Or at the very least you should get on TV, you only have to look smarter than Doug Maclean and Nick Kypreos which will be easy when you nail every single draft selection. But you can make some dough calling out the 'right' draft picks from 1 through 210.


Last edited by Majik1987: 12-01-2011 at 03:54 PM. Reason: qe
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12-01-2011, 07:51 AM
  #95
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Bertrand Raymond is a POS for always kicking the Habs when they are down. I really don't understand why the Canadiens allow him to enter the Centre Bell. They should only let him in if he's got a paid ticket.

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12-01-2011, 07:57 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by HabsByTheBay View Post
I'm pretty sure Gauthier wants to win, you do an above-average job in the town like Savard did - nothing on Selke or Pollock, just good - and you get peons written to you.

I think their process is average and the org has more cobwebs than grandma's attic, but they do want to win. Also, seriously, Ron Corey? The guy who helped run off Chelios, Roy, Damphousse, Keane and Turgeon and Savard himself? He had a desire to win?
Exactly what I thought. Corey was awful and is the biggest reason why we have been spinning our wheels for so many years.

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12-01-2011, 07:59 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
Just to name a few, here is where Timmins ***** up big time:

2002:
- Drafted Chris Higgins over Cam Ward

2003:
- Drafted Andrei Kostitsyn over Jeff Carter, Dustin Brown, Brent Seabrook, Zach Parise, Ryan Getzlaf, Ryan Kesler, Mike Richards, Corey Perry, Loui Eriksson, Patrice Bergeron
- Drafted Maxime Lapierre over David Backes

2004:
- Drafted Kyle Chipchura over Travis Zajac, Mike Green or Brandon Dubinsky

2005:
- Drafted Guillaume Latendresse over Kristopher Letang

2006:
- Drafted David Fischer over Claude Giroux
- Drafted Ben Maxwell over Milan Lucic

2008:
- Traded 25th overall draft pick to Calgary for Alex Tanguay, could of drafted Tyler Ennis or John Carlson

2009, 2010 and 2011 all look bright with Leblanc, Tinordi and Beaulieu but only time will well.

So imagine a team with:

Cam Ward, Travis Zajac, Jeff Carter, Kris Letang, Claude Giroux, Milan Lucic and Tyler Ennis in Montreal with Pacioretty, Subban and the rest?

I can't sleep now!!!
By your measuring stick all NHL executives are idiots.

I mean they have no clue how players will develop and who will be good or a bust 5-7 years later. They should make you GM you'd win 20 cups in a row with your crystal ball.

Imagine all the idiots(including Detroit) who let hall of famers and preennial all-stars like Lidstrom Zetterberg and Datsyuk slide to the late rounds of the draft.


Last edited by Majik1987: 12-01-2011 at 03:54 PM. Reason: qe
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12-01-2011, 08:11 AM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
He's right about Giroux. Fanbase have been crying about having a french star forward for years and this guy had talent. Yet this is an org. obsessed with American Ds. It's like letting Lafleur slipping buy. It was an unexcusable and I was disgusted the very day of that draft. Now Giroux is close to being the league's best forward. Serge Savard would never have let this go.
Lots of french players have talent. Pouliot had a ton of it and he is a scrub. It's one thing to have talent, quite another for it to translate into NHL success.

Consistently drafting good players is hand enough without having some stupid rule they we have to always try and draft french/Quebec kids. A few years back people were up in arms that we missed out on Hudon-Paquette in the 2nd round for Kristo...well taht looks pretty good right now as DHP is ECHL for a 2nd straight yaer and Kristo is ripping it up NCAA.

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12-01-2011, 12:57 PM
  #99
Vsevolod Bobrov
Burn the boats !
 
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i am so ****ing fed up with this ******** reasoning....
Hopefully he's just kidding, but considering what that guy tends to post he's probably not.

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12-01-2011, 02:09 PM
  #100
Sandvich
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Originally Posted by Krnage View Post
at least Kevin Marshall played some NHL games....fischer NOT
At least PK Subban is useful

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