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12-02-2011, 12:55 PM
  #351
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Much ado about nothing

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12-02-2011, 12:55 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Lmfao...loved that episode.

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12-02-2011, 01:00 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Any divisional or conference rival that doesn't want us to have cap space could have claimed him. NYI could have used some extra bodies, for instance. Montreal and Buffalo have been mentioned. Apparently Chicago needs depth D. Defensemen are currently in demand, according to Holmgren himself. It was an unnecessary risk. The reward of having Walker and his oversize cap hit on the roster do not cancel the risk of him being claimed.

If Homer tried to trade Walker, failed, and then tried to give him away for free while keeping 850k of cap hit that would be even dumber than just calling him up. I highly doubt he did that. He probably just decided to take the risk. That's sort of how he rolls. He's made it clear in the past that he's willing to be reckless, and he sure doesn't seem to care much about the consequences.
these options are quite possible i understand what you are saying. If you take a look at the teams that are rivals for the flyers who of those have the cap space and roster spots worth sticking it to the flyers? I just feel there was little to no options out there of a team wanting walker for 850K for 2 seasons. The analogy of headbutting concrete is pretty off base. I see it more as if Homer was doing 60 in a 55 so his chances of a speeding ticket was slim! The man wasn't going 70 in a damn 55!

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12-02-2011, 01:02 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Much ado about nothing
Yes, just like all his minor overpayments and asset mismanagement was much ado about nothing...until this offseason when it was clear that because of the cumulative effect of all those moves we had no prospects to call up, that in the near future we'd need to overpay in FA for depth positions (somehow, since there was no cap space), and we had no draft picks to fix the situation with...resulting in an offseason rebuild that saw us trading two very good players for younger players and picks, trading Powe for a pick, and generally just hitting the reset button to get the team away from the ledge.

But hey, it's clearly no big deal that Holmgren is showing that he has learned absolutely nothing from his prior actions and missteps.

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12-02-2011, 01:03 PM
  #355
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these options are quite possible i understand what you are saying. If you take a look at the teams that are rivals for the flyers who of those have the cap space and roster spots worth sticking it to the flyers? I just feel there was little to no options out there of a team wanting walker for 850K for 2 seasons. The analogy of headbutting concrete is pretty off base. I see it more as if Homer was doing 60 in a 55 so his chances of a speeding ticket was slim! The man wasn't going 70 in a damn 55!
Yeah, he was. The cop just chose not to pull him.

Unlike the Randy Jones situation, where not only did he get pulled over but he was actually in a 35 mph zone without knowing it.

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12-02-2011, 01:09 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yes, just like all his minor overpayments and asset mismanagement was much ado about nothing...until this offseason when it was clear that because of the cumulative effect of all those moves we had no prospects to call up, that in the near future we'd need to overpay in FA for depth positions (somehow, since there was no cap space), and we had no draft picks to fix the situation with...resulting in an offseason rebuild that saw us trading two very good players for younger players and picks, trading Powe for a pick, and generally just hitting the reset button to get the team away from the ledge.

But hey, it's clearly no big deal that Holmgren is showing that he has learned absolutely nothing from his prior actions and missteps.
Holmgren said he could have made them fit cap wise with Bryz... You quoted Holmgren plenty of times talking about "gauging interest" about Nodl, taking the statement literally. If you take that literally, then you have to take the statement he made about making Bryz fit with Richy and Carter serious. He made those moves because he thought it was in the benefit of the organization. So you kinda are being hypocritical here. Your picking and choosing which statements Holmgren is being honest about and lying about

What i'm trying to say here is that you can't say he traded away richy and Carter because of cap management because he said himself he could have made it all work.


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12-02-2011, 01:18 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
How about this analogy:

Beef Logic: I think something is true so it is and there are no other possibilities.

DFF Logic: Maybe there are other possibilities.
Sometimes, 3/4 of the way through a post, I feel totally incapable of putting into words, what I have in my head; and then I end up adding this introductory line. Does that happen to anyone else? Anyway....here goes...

My issue with the entire debate is that I feel both of you are taking your opinions to the extreme; although you are trying to appear as if you are neutral, and merely keeping yourself open to other possibilities.

I don't understand how you claim that your logic is merely "maybe there are other possibilities", yet aren't upset? You get on Beef for stating that Homer 100% doesn't know he won't get claimed. I'd argue, you are stating that Homer 100% knows he won't (not just that it is possible), because if you didn't truly believe so, I'd figure you'd HAVE to be upset, because it's too risky not to be.

I see Homer put Walker on re-entry and I go "wtf, I hate Homer, why is he doing this? Hopefully he knows something I don't because this is retarded". I'm very upset, yet I'm open to the idea that "there are other possibilities."

So despite us both essentially hoping that Homer knows something we don't, here I stand, pissed off that this happened, and there you stand, apparently fine? The only explanation is that, while I hope, you assume it to be true.

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12-02-2011, 01:25 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Sometimes, 3/4 of the way through a post, I feel totally incapable of putting into words, what I have in my head;
I actually just did the same thing. I deleted a response clarifying my thoughts and position because I had no idea how to phrase it.

So now you get this.

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12-02-2011, 01:26 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Sometimes, 3/4 of the way through a post, I feel totally incapable of putting into words, what I have in my head; and then I end up adding this introductory line. Does that happen to anyone else? Anyway....here goes...

My issue with the entire debate is that I feel both of you are taking your opinions to the extreme; although you are trying to appear as if you are neutral, and merely keeping yourself open to other possibilities.

I don't understand how you claim that your logic is merely "maybe there are other possibilities", yet aren't upset? You get on Beef for stating that Homer 100% doesn't know he won't get claimed. I'd argue, you are stating that Homer 100% knows he won't (not just that it is possible), because if you didn't truly believe so, I'd figure you'd HAVE to be upset, because it's too risky not to be.

I see Homer put Walker on re-entry and I go "wtf, I hate Homer, why is he doing this? Hopefully he knows something I don't because this is retarded". I'm very upset, yet I'm open to the idea that "there are other possibilities."

So despite us both essentially hoping that Homer knows something we don't, here I stand, pissed off that this happened, and there you stand, apparently fine? The only explanation is that, while I hope, you assume it to be true.
Like I said from the get-go. If he would have been claimed, that would have shown at least that whatever information he was potentially relying on wasn't that great, or that he in fact did have no clue what was going on. And if he was not claimed, it would at least be possible that it wasn't mere luck as Beef is saying. I would have been upset if he was claimed, like everyone else. But there is no point in getting mad about something that we don't actually know about.

If Homer really had no idea, I would be pissed and say it was stupid. But we don't know what he knew, so how can I be upset, especially considering that he cleared? What would be upset about? That he MIGHT not know what is going on? That is silly. Just like I wasn't praising him on the move because he does know something. All I have been saying is that it is stupid to condemn this move without knowing the motivation behind it. Most people on here seem to think it was an unnecessary risk, based solely on the fact another team might claim him and no other information (i.e. actual league interest). I would at least give the GM the benefit of the doubt that he is a little more abreast of the situation than we are, despite what some people think and hold off judgment until the deal went through.

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12-02-2011, 01:29 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Like I said from the get-go. If he would have been claimed, that would have shown at least that whatever information he was potentially relying on wasn't that great, or that he in fact did have no clue what was going on. And if he was not claimed, it would at least be possible that it wasn't mere luck as Beef is saying. I would have been upset if he was claimed, like everyone else. But there is no point in getting mad about something that we don't actually know about.

If Homer really had no idea, I would be pissed and say it was stupid. But we don't know what he knew, so how can I be upset, especially considering that he cleared? What would be upset about? That he MIGHT not know what is going on? That is silly. Just like I wasn't praising him on the move because he does know something. All I have been saying is that it is stupid to condemn this move without knowing the motivation behind it. Most people on here seem to think it was an unnecessary risk, based solely on the fact another team might claim him and no other information (i.e. actual league interest). I would at least give the GM the benefit of the doubt that he is a little more abreast of the situation than we are, despite what some people think and hold off judgment until the deal went through.
I 100% understand this.

I'd still argue the difference between us, is I hope he knows something, while you assume he knows something, which is why you wouldn't get mad until your assumption is proven wrong (aka he got claimed).

edit:
Basically, I think what I'm trying to say is, I think you are attempting to appear neutral, but I think you're being as extreme in your opinion as Beef is. You truly believe he knew it, or else I think you'd have to be pissed; as opposed to just being pissed when if it was proven that you were wrong.

another edit:
I don't know if you saw my posts in the Nodl thread, but I think this is the same argument I'm making. Too many people make massive assumptions, and I think you make one in this particular case.

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12-02-2011, 01:34 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I 100% understand this.

I'd still argue the difference between us, is I hope he knows something, while you assume he knows something, which is why you wouldn't get mad until your assumption is proven wrong (aka he got claimed).

edit:
Basically, I think what I'm trying to say is, I think you are attempting to appear neutral, but I think you're being as extreme in your opinion as Beef is. You truly believe he knew it, or else I think you'd have to be pissed; as opposed to just being pissed when it was proven that you were wrong.
I do believe he knew something. What that something is I don't know, but I think that as a GM he has a better idea of what is going on than we do, and while some on here see it as a risk Homer may not have because of his inside information. It is completely possible that he had zero information and in fact does know as much or less than we, I just find that pretty hard to believe.

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12-02-2011, 01:46 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I 100% understand this.

I'd still argue the difference between us, is I hope he knows something, while you assume he knows something, which is why you wouldn't get mad until your assumption is proven wrong (aka he got claimed).

edit:
Basically, I think what I'm trying to say is, I think you are attempting to appear neutral, but I think you're being as extreme in your opinion as Beef is. You truly believe he knew it, or else I think you'd have to be pissed; as opposed to just being pissed when if it was proven that you were wrong.

another edit:
I don't know if you saw my posts in the Nodl thread, but I think this is the same argument I'm making. Too many people make massive assumptions, and I think you make one in this particular case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I do believe he knew something. What that something is I don't know, but I think that as a GM he has a better idea of what is going on than we do, and while some on here see it as a risk Homer may not have because of his inside information. It is completely possible that he had zero information and in fact does know as much or less than we, I just find that pretty hard to believe.
Here's my quote about assumptions from the Nodl thread. This was preceeded by a small post about how I dislike assumptions and try to only deal in facts. (This is kind of fun. It's like taking the plot to Star Wars, and replacing the characters with Harry Potter characters, yet it still making sense haha.)



Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I agree, and that's my point.

I don't think anyone should ASSUME we could have gotten something for Nodl. I don't think anyone should ASSUME that Homer called around first. Everyone around here chastises everyone else for making assumptions, yet those people are making the same sort of assumptions but on the other side of the argument.

My entire point is, REGARDLESS OF WHAT DID OR DIDN'T HAPPEN...that Homer said the words "gauging interest" and that makes zero sense. None. At all. It is flat out stupid. So he was either talking out of his ass, or he is an idiot.
I don't think anyone should ASSUME that Homer knew he wouldn't get claimed. I don't think anyone should ASSUME that Homer had no idea if he would get claimed. Everyone around here chastises everyone else for making assumptions, yet those people are making the same sort of assumptions but on the other side of the argument.

My entire point is, REGARDLESS OF WHAT DID OR DIDN'T HAPPEN...that Homer risked a sizable chunk of cap space, for both this year and next, for a player that isn't even any good, and that makes zero sense. None. At all. It is flat out stupid. So he either knew something, or he is an idiot. (The world may never know, just like with tootsie pops.)

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12-02-2011, 01:53 PM
  #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
My entire point is, REGARDLESS OF WHAT DID OR DIDN'T HAPPEN...that Homer risked a sizable chunk of cap space, for both this year and next, for a player that isn't even any good, and that makes zero sense. None. At all. It is flat out stupid. So he either knew something, or he is an idiot. (The world may never know, just like with tootsie pops.)
Love the Star Wars/Harry Potter thing. Classic.

But my only response to your point is what I have been saying the whole time. It may not have been a risk. You're saying we can't assume he knew or did not know anything, but then you are saying he risked a sizable chunk and we should be upset. But if it really wasn't a risk, (i.e. he knew something), what are we really mad at? Essentially what I am getting from your point is that it is ok to be mad at him for something we don't know about, but not ok to defend him for something we don't know about. I dunno, maybe I am being too philosophical or metaphysical or another word like that.

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12-02-2011, 01:54 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I do believe he knew something. What that something is I don't know, but I think that as a GM he has a better idea of what is going on than we do, and while some on here see it as a risk Homer may not have because of his inside information. It is completely possible that he had zero information and in fact does know as much or less than we, I just find that pretty hard to believe.
So just out of curiosity....let's talk about the Jones situation from two years ago. According to you and your assumptions about Holmgren, he knew something about the Kings and should know something about Dean Lombardi's desires. Jones gets claimed.

I see two options. 1) Holmgren knew Jones was going to be claimed OR 2) he had no ****ing clue and was rolling the dice.

Either way, it's a stupid, stupid idea. What was your defense then, and why did he do the same thing again?

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12-02-2011, 02:02 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
So just out of curiosity....let's talk about the Jones situation from two years ago. According to you and your assumptions about Holmgren, he knew something about the Kings and should know something about Dean Lombardi's desires. Jones gets claimed.

I see two options. 1) Holmgren knew Jones was going to be claimed OR 2) he had no ****ing clue and was rolling the dice.

Either way, it's a stupid, stupid idea. What was your defense then, and why did he do the same thing again?
I don't remember the circumstances of that waiver (other than he was claimed). But I probably would have (and did if I was here, not sure if I was on the board at that point) made the same arguments. Given him the benefit of the doubt until the deal went through. If he was claimed, then ok let's say he didn't know anything or that the stuff he knew was not credible. If not, it is possible he knew something. He blew it with Randy Jones, very clearly. I think he even said it himself. But that has nothing to do with this. That was two years ago. If that mistake means he can only repeat that again, I guess we should be able to trade a useless player for a top prospect pretty soon, right? You know, like that Zhitnik for Coburn trade? Oh wait, just because something happened in the past DOESN'T mean it will happen again.

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12-02-2011, 02:05 PM
  #366
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Holmgren did not think Jones would get claimed. In fact, he stated that he was upset with Lombardi for doing it.

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12-02-2011, 02:07 PM
  #367
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Holmgren did not think Jones would get claimed. In fact, he stated that he was upset with Lombardi for doing it.
That's fine. Like I said, I don't remember the circumstances of that and like I said also, that was a bonehead move.

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12-02-2011, 02:13 PM
  #368
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Love the Star Wars/Harry Potter thing. Classic.

But my only response to your point is what I have been saying the whole time. It may not have been a risk. You're saying we can't assume he knew or did not know anything, but then you are saying he risked a sizable chunk and we should be upset. But if it really wasn't a risk, (i.e. he knew something), what are we really mad at? Essentially what I am getting from your point is that it is ok to be mad at him for something we don't know about, but not ok to defend him for something we don't know about. I dunno, maybe I am being too philosophical or metaphysical or another word like that.
I'm not sure I completely understand the bolded, but I think I sort of am saying that. I'm saying, we are fans. All we can do is formulate opinions on what we know, and ONLY what we know.

Fact: Homer placed Matt Walker on re-entry waivers.
Fact: Matt Walker has a cap hit of $1.7 million for this year and next.
Fact: Homer chose to risk $850k of cap space for both this year and next.

This in and of itself, has a certain level of risk to it, and I'm personally risk averse, and don't like it.

Fact: Matt Walker is not a very good player (admittedly, there is SOME degree of opinion in this, but most agree, he's a marginal NHLer at best)

Put it all together and I hate it. Without even thinking about what Homer might know, or what he doesn't know. What I DO know, is Homer is risking a sizable chunk of dead cap space, for 2 years, for Matt Walker (and he really isn't that good). This isn't like we're taking a calculated risk to add Sidney Crosby to the roster. It's Matt Walker; he's a body. Some may think he's a better body than others, but still.

To touch on your bolded point again, you appear to be making (correct me if I'm wrong), the classic theist counter-argument (coming from a theist, mind you). Atheists get all scientific and say there is no God, and having no other point to make, theists fall back on "Well you can't prove God doesn't exist!"

So if we directly, apply your bolded comment, to the God argument, I'm saying:

It's ok to not believe in God because there is no proof, but it's not ok to believe in God because there is no proof.

Simply put, one of those, holds more weight than the other.

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12-02-2011, 02:17 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I'm not sure I completely understand the bolded, but I think I sort of am saying that. I'm saying, we are fans. All we can do is formulate opinions on what we know, and ONLY what we know.

Fact: Homer placed Matt Walker on re-entry waivers.
Fact: Matt Walker has a cap hit of $1.7 million for this year and next.
Fact: Homer chose to risk $850k of cap space for both this year and next.

This in and of itself, has a certain level of risk to it, and I'm personally risk averse, and don't like it.

Fact: Matt Walker is not a very good player (admittedly, there is SOME degree of opinion in this, but most agree, he's a marginal NHLer at best)

Put it all together and I hate it. Without even thinking about what Homer might know, or what he doesn't know. What I DO know, is Homer is risking a sizable chunk of dead cap space, for 2 years, for Matt Walker (and he really isn't that good). This isn't like we're taking a calculated risk to add Sidney Crosby to the roster. It's Matt Walker; he's a body. Some may think he's a better body than others, but still.

To touch on your bolded point again, you appear to be making (correct me if I'm wrong), the classic theist counter-argument (coming from a theist, mind you). Atheists get all scientific and say there is no God, and having no other point to make, theists fall back on "Well you can't prove God doesn't exist!"

So if we directly, apply your bolded comment, to the God argument, I'm saying:

It's ok to not believe in God because there is no proof, but it's not ok to believe in God because there is no proof.

Simply put, one of those, holds more weight than the other.
Ok I see what you are saying and don't really disagree. However, I think you (and maybe others on here too) are not following my argument. I personally believe Homer had some indication of what was going to happen, certainly a better indication than we as fans do. But aside from what I believe, others seem to be refuting even the possibility of that. And that is what I just don't understand and how people can be saying that. That is really what I am arguing here. I don't know. I'm gonna bail on this argument now. It's clear I am in the minority here and I'm not changing any minds. Haha.

EDIT: Also Pannacchio said Walker cleared "as expected." That means I'm right, right?

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12-02-2011, 02:21 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Ok I see what you are saying and don't really disagree. However, I think you (and maybe others on here too) are not following my argument. I personally believe Homer had some indication of what was going to happen, certainly a better indication than we as fans do. But aside from what I believe, others seem to be refuting even the possibility of that. And that is what I just don't understand and how people can be saying that. That is really what I am arguing here. I don't know. I'm gonna bail on this argument now. It's clear I am in the minority here and I'm not changing any minds. Haha.

EDIT: Also Pannacchio said Walker cleared "as expected." That means I'm right, right?
I can certainly agree there. I certainly don't make that claim. I don't think it's at all likely, but as I said before, I hoped, for the sake of hoping haha.

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12-02-2011, 02:25 PM
  #371
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Hey, the Flyers play tonight!

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12-02-2011, 02:26 PM
  #372
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Hey, the Flyers play tonight!
I'm glad the mid-season offseason is finally over

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12-02-2011, 02:28 PM
  #373
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I'm glad the mid-season offseason is finally over
Mustve been an interesting week for HBO

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Old
12-02-2011, 03:16 PM
  #374
Sawdalite
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I'm not sure I completely understand the bolded, but I think I sort of am saying that. I'm saying, we are fans. All we can do is formulate opinions on what we know, and ONLY what we know.

Fact: Homer placed Matt Walker on re-entry waivers.
Fact: Matt Walker has a cap hit of $1.7 million for this year and next.
Fact: Homer chose to risk $850k of cap space for both this year and next.

This in and of itself, has a certain level of risk to it, and I'm personally risk averse, and don't like it.

Fact: Matt Walker is not a very good player (admittedly, there is SOME degree of opinion in this, but most agree, he's a marginal NHLer at best)

Put it all together and I hate it. Without even thinking about what Homer might know, or what he doesn't know. What I DO know, is Homer is risking a sizable chunk of dead cap space, for 2 years, for Matt Walker (and he really isn't that good). This isn't like we're taking a calculated risk to add Sidney Crosby to the roster. It's Matt Walker; he's a body. Some may think he's a better body than others, but still.

To touch on your bolded point again, you appear to be making (correct me if I'm wrong), the classic theist counter-argument (coming from a theist, mind you). Atheists get all scientific and say there is no God, and having no other point to make, theists fall back on "Well you can't prove God doesn't exist!"

So if we directly, apply your bolded comment, to the God argument, I'm saying:

It's ok to not believe in God because there is no proof, but it's not ok to believe in God because there is no proof.

Simply put, one of those, holds more weight than the other.
You didn't mention the most/only important fact at this moment.

Fact: Matt Walker cleared through Recall Waivers without any of the other twenty-nine NHL teams putting in a claim.


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Old
12-02-2011, 05:47 PM
  #375
BernieParent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I'm not sure I completely understand the bolded, but I think I sort of am saying that. I'm saying, we are fans. All we can do is formulate opinions on what we know, and ONLY what we know.

Fact: Homer placed Matt Walker on re-entry waivers.
Fact: Matt Walker has a cap hit of $1.7 million for this year and next.
Fact: Homer chose to risk $850k of cap space for both this year and next.

This in and of itself, has a certain level of risk to it, and I'm personally risk averse, and don't like it.

Fact: Matt Walker is not a very good player (admittedly, there is SOME degree of opinion in this, but most agree, he's a marginal NHLer at best)

Put it all together and I hate it. Without even thinking about what Homer might know, or what he doesn't know. What I DO know, is Homer is risking a sizable chunk of dead cap space, for 2 years, for Matt Walker (and he really isn't that good). This isn't like we're taking a calculated risk to add Sidney Crosby to the roster. It's Matt Walker; he's a body. Some may think he's a better body than others, but still.

To touch on your bolded point again, you appear to be making (correct me if I'm wrong), the classic theist counter-argument (coming from a theist, mind you). Atheists get all scientific and say there is no God, and having no other point to make, theists fall back on "Well you can't prove God doesn't exist!"

So if we directly, apply your bolded comment, to the God argument, I'm saying:

It's ok to not believe in God because there is no proof, but it's not ok to believe in God because there is no proof.

Simply put, one of those, holds more weight than the other.
To summarize: would C.S. Lewis have put Walker on recall waivers?

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