How many times does a GM have to do seemingly-boneheaded moves that turn out OK before people begin to trust him? Everything he does he gets a huge amount of grief from this forum with people mocking his judgement and decision making, but 9/10 times? It all works out OK and we continue to be one of the better sides in the entire league.
There's at least 20 teams in this league who'd kill for a GM like Homer, when will we start to appreciate him?
How many times does a GM have to do seemingly-boneheaded moves that turn out OK before people begin to trust him? Everything he does he gets a huge amount of grief from this forum with people mocking his judgement and decision making, but 9/10 times? It all works out OK and we continue to be one of the better sides in the entire league.
There's at least 20 teams in this league who'd kill for a GM like Homer, when will we start to appreciate him?
You've quickly forgotten the very real hockey-related reasons for the trades this offseason. The impending crisis caused by having no NHL-level prospects and no draft picks to fix it with; the impending crisis caused by Paul Holmgren's asset and cap management.
It isn't like we're imagining or inventing reasons to criticize him. It's not like we have any personal grudge. It's that he has given us a legion of valid reasons to criticize him.
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Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
How many times does a GM have to do seemingly-boneheaded moves that turn out OK before people begin to trust him? Everything he does he gets a huge amount of grief from this forum with people mocking his judgement and decision making, but 9/10 times? It all works out OK and we continue to be one of the better sides in the entire league.
There's at least 20 teams in this league who'd kill for a GM like Homer, when will we start to appreciate him?
You've quickly forgotten the very real hockey-related reasons for the trades this offseason. The impending crisis caused by having no NHL-level prospects and no draft picks to fix it with; the impending crisis caused by Paul Holmgren's asset and cap management.
It isn't like we're imagining or inventing reasons to criticize him. It's not like we have any personal grudge. It's that he has given us a legion of valid reasons to criticize him.
What crisis? Most of our core were locked up long term, a lot of them were young, we had players like Read in the wings and we were in a reasonably good position. Sure we were close to the cap but then we always are.
Regardless, we'll work with the hypothesis that we were careering towards a crisis. Wouldn't you say that we've successfully avoided it? We've re-stocked the cupboard, got a goalie and are continuing along at our typical pace. Who gets the credit for that? Certainly not Homer, he gets bluster instead for risking (I use that term lightly) less than 2% of the total cap space on something that worked out fine.
What crisis? Most of our core were locked up long term, a lot of them were young, we had players like Read in the wings and we were in a reasonably good position. Sure we were close to the cap but then we always are.
Regardless, we'll work with the hypothesis that we were careering towards a crisis. Wouldn't you say that we've successfully avoided it? We've re-stocked the cupboard, got a goalie and are continuing along at our typical pace. Who gets the credit for that? Certainly not Homer, he gets bluster instead for risking (I use that term lightly) less than 2% of the total cap space on something that worked out fine.
Uh, we were at the cap. Most teams develop their own depth players. In the coming years we would have had to go to FA to fill out the rest of team besides the core, unless we wanted to use AHL scraps. We had no draft picks to resolve the problem. Our situation was untenable, and Holmgren had to take dramatic steps to fix the problems he had created.
With the gifting of Nodl to Carolina and his risk of gifting Walker to someone else at the cost of cap space, it's clear that he's learned nothing at all. But I'm sure his supporters will gladly plug their fingers into his ears and ignore the writing on the wall as he spends the next few years giving away more and more draft picks and prospects (inevitably, because of his perennial cap issues) until the team is on the precipice again and we get to see another surprise rebuild.
Two other contenders have less then 2,000,000 in cap space.
You pay to be competitive. People are worried about the simplest things. Andreas Nodl isn't important to the big scheme of things. We have a good forward corps and now we will be looking to build on the defense. As contracts expire this team will have cap space to work with. If you are a fan of cap space then go be a fan of teams who spend just to make the cap floor every year. Have fun.
I feel the need to comment on the Butterfly Effect again (BSH did something on this as well, I'm biting off their example).
Here is just an example of how just a wee bit of cap space can dramatically affect the team:
-The Flyers traded for Kris Versteeg
-Ian Laperriere had to be put on LTIR, since the Flyers were over the cap
-They had to take bonus overages into this season as a result.
-Ed Snider blows a gasket after the playoff goaltending **** show.
-Leading scorer and team captain are dealt (if you're assuming these are hockey moves).
-Goaltender is signed to an insane contract.
I feel the need to comment on the Butterfly Effect again (BSH did something on this as well, I'm biting off their example).
Here is just an example of how just a wee bit of cap space can dramatically affect the team:
-The Flyers traded for Kris Versteeg
-Ian Laperriere had to be put on LTIR, since the Flyers were over the cap
-They had to take bonus overages into this season as a result.
-Ed Snider blows a gasket after the playoff goaltending **** show.
-Leading scorer and team captain are dealt (if you're assuming these are hockey moves).
-Goaltender is signed to an insane contract.
You've quickly forgotten the very real hockey-related reasons for the trades this offseason.
Not sure what you mean with this... Homer retooled the team while completely changing the culture going forward while allowing more flexibility with releasing over $10M each season for the next dozen or so years... allowing he team to evolve more than it would have with the two Offensive players anchoring the Forwards through good seasons and probably past the lean years. He also strengthened greatly the Goaltending by most everybody's judgement by trading for and signing a veteran after going out and signing a top young FA with a great upside... He also brought in top level prospects through trades and FA signing on all levels and all the while improved the character with excellent and proven Room guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus
The impending crisis caused by having no NHL-level prospects and no draft picks to fix it with;
The prospects are here and contributing... Read, Couturier, Schenn, and young players with experience such as Simmonds and Voracek... Bobrovsky... Gus... and role players such as Rinaldo... While beefing up the Farm with future talent and adding some draft picks.
I see no crisis... I see some very good to great young talent that will serve the Flyers for many years... supplementing the old heads such as Giroux and JvR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus
the impending crisis caused by Paul Holmgren's asset and cap management.
Homer has been a Houdini in his escaping what some perceive as doom while being a Walenda as he walks the tightrope with the Cap... It is not like he is alone in this in the NHL -- Look at NJ last season for but one example -- and has in fact taken a club maxed out last season and revamped it while teetering on the edge... He looks like he is in trouble, yet escapes and keeps on icing a quality team. His assets are really in great shape with at least three super quality rookies contributing and some more mixing is with the veterans... the spread of young, middle and older is quite good in fact... on both sides of the puck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus
It isn't like we're imagining or inventing reasons to criticize him. It's not like we have any personal grudge. It's that he has given us a legion of valid reasons to criticize him.
Some due seem to have a grudge while others seem to love to ***** and moan... and none of us has the inside facts that Homer has to both deal with and use to his benefit, yet we all have the answers... none of which we will be called on if we are wrong. The team is in real good shape going forward with young talent that other GMs would kill for.
Uh, we were at the cap. Most teams develop their own depth players. In the coming years we would have had to go to FA to fill out the rest of team besides the core, unless we wanted to use AHL scraps. We had no draft picks to resolve the problem. Our situation was untenable, and Holmgren had to take dramatic steps to fix the problems he had created.
With the gifting of Nodl to Carolina and his risk of gifting Walker to someone else at the cost of cap space, it's clear that he's learned nothing at all. But I'm sure his supporters will gladly plug their fingers into his ears and ignore the writing on the wall as he spends the next few years giving away more and more draft picks and prospects (inevitably, because of his perennial cap issues) until the team is on the precipice again and we get to see another surprise rebuild.
Just out of curiosity here, without getting into another titillating debate, if, hypothetically, the Flyers win a Cup this year and next, will Homer be a good GM then? Or will it be luck? Will his bad moves (that lead to a Cup in this hypothetical) be forgiven?
Hilarity once again ensues as all the expert GMs around here are proven wrong. Meanwhile, enjoy watching one of the most talented teams in the league play tonight put together by sheer luck, I'm sure. But be sure to come back tomorrow morning and complain some more about Jody Shelley or Pat Maroon.
My favorite part about this article is that all three things that the author says can't happen have happened.
Quote:
Who cares about acquiring Jason Bacashuihua? Well, now the team is at the 50 contract limit and needs Sean Couturier's contract to slide, so he can't make the team no matter how good he looks in camp.
Who cares that Talbot's contract has a cap hit that's perhaps $200k-300k too high? Well, the team is now so close to the cap that they can't afford to have Matt Read on the roster no matter how good he looks in camp.
Who cares that Lilja's tiny contract has a second year? Well, if the top 5 all return next year, it means that Kevin Marshall and Erik Gustafsson can't make it to the NHL this year or next unless the Flyers dump Bartulis, since Lilja's deal is 35+ and will count against the cap no matter what.
Uh, we were at the cap. Most teams develop their own depth players. In the coming years we would have had to go to FA to fill out the rest of team besides the core, unless we wanted to use AHL scraps. We had no draft picks to resolve the problem. Our situation was untenable, and Holmgren had to take dramatic steps to fix the problems he had created.
With the gifting of Nodl to Carolina and his risk of gifting Walker to someone else at the cost of cap space, it's clear that he's learned nothing at all. But I'm sure his supporters will gladly plug their fingers into his ears and ignore the writing on the wall as he spends the next few years giving away more and more draft picks and prospects (inevitably, because of his perennial cap issues) until the team is on the precipice again and we get to see another surprise rebuild.
While his detractors run around claiming the sky is falling, the sky is falling.
We don't know if Homer lost Nodl begrudgingly... or put him out there to be grabbed up as he knew he would be... losing a contract and opening up a contract slot for a sudden deal. Homer's words were afterwards were that he was "happy that he get a chance to work up on a team... he wasn't able to with the Flyers for one or another" (paraphrased)... Nodl was at that point a roadblock for other younger players; the writing was on the wall. He was claimed up and there is a spot for another contract... one that can be filled by an up and comer, or a player who can help now.
I would rather have a GM that is willing to cut bait when the time is right, rather than a GM that is stubborn and will go down to his death supporting a team that is not going in the right course. To trade Richards and Carter before their No Trade Contracts kick in and drastically change the course of this team when he felt that they were not the players that will take them to the Cup... and will not be the 'culture' leaders the Flyers should have... was a gutty move IMO.
And once again I must say that we do no have the inside NHL and Organization information that Homer has at his command... We don't know who, if anyone, he may be protecting, and what directives he may be working under... We have no idea what his ultimate plans are, and what he may not want to tip off the other GMs about... He has learned well from Clarke, who learned well from Allen, that you have to keep things under you hat and look people in the and lie when needed with a straight face... and a times with a smirk or wink.
To me the result is all that counts... the only thing that counts. Until they win another Cup they will have failed... but I'd rather they fail with an honest and good shot than to flop around and go nowhere like in the Jay Snider/Russ Farwell years where the Flyers missed the Playoff five straight seasons and stayed just bad enough to do so while not bad enough to grab a superstar selection.
I feel like a good way to talk about this whole situation--if it hasn't been brought up--is illegal hits. In this case, Holmgren's risks are like an illegal shot to the head. Holmgren recalls Matt Walker. Maybe a team claims him (suspension), maybe he makes it through (no suspension).
The claim itself/the ruling is a subjective thing, but it doesn't change the fact that the decision to recall Walker/hit the guy in the head is stupid.
I mean, for the people defending Holmgren--and this goes back to Beef's concrete headbutting comment--are you the people who only want to punish players for dirty hits if the victim winds up injured? I'm not saying that Holmgren's actions should be looked upon as 'illegal,' it's all just an analogy. I don't even hate Holmgren, but the worship he gets as all-knowing is hilarious. I think it's been pretty clear that the guy has a vague idea of what he wants but does everything by the seat of his pants.
Just out of curiosity here, without getting into another titillating debate, if, hypothetically, the Flyers win a Cup this year and next, will Homer be a good GM then? Or will it be luck? Will his bad moves (that lead to a Cup in this hypothetical) be forgiven?
No, they won't be forgiven. Bad moves are still bad moves.
As for spending to the cap...it's not how much you spend, but how you spend it. Holmgren often does that unwisely. Thankfully, he is nowhere near the worst in that department.
My favorite part about this article is that all three things that the author says can't happen have happened.
They went too far by saying it was impossible, but you realize we had to tuck a pick to go with Legein and send him to the Kings, to allow us to keep Couturier, right?
Now, you can say that it was just a sixth rounder and that won't mean anything in the long run, and you would most likely be right. Or, we could have found our own Datsyuk (or at least another Rinaldo). Sure, it's just a minor inconvenience, but if it happens often enough it will turn into a bigger problem.
I don't think Holmgren is a terrible GM, I don't think he needs to be fired, but he does make mistakes that are fairly easily avoidable at times.
As for the Lilja thing... I'm not sure what your point is. Bartulis is in the AHL, and the only reason Bourdon and Marshall is up on the roster is a number of injuries to the dmen. If we re-sign Carle over the summer (or add some other ufa d) it only leaves one more spot (assuming we go with 7 d as usual) since Lilja will count against the cap even if he's sent down... unless Homer pays to get rid of him of course...
No, they won't be forgiven. Bad moves are still bad moves.
As for spending to the cap...it's not how much you spend, but how you spend it. Holmgren often does that unwisely. Thankfully, he is nowhere near the worst in that department.
Ok, at least you're consistent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirimon
They went too far by saying it was impossible, but you realize we had to tuck a pick to go with Legein and send him to the Kings, to allow us to keep Couturier, right?
Now, you can say that it was just a sixth rounder and that won't mean anything in the long run, and you would most likely be right. Or, we could have found our own Datsyuk (or at least another Rinaldo). Sure, it's just a minor inconvenience, but if it happens often enough it will turn into a bigger problem.
I don't think Holmgren is a terrible GM, I don't think he needs to be fired, but he does make mistakes that are fairly easily avoidable at times.
As for the Lilja thing... I'm not sure what your point is. Bartulis is in the AHL, and the only reason Bourdon and Marshall is up on the roster is a number of injuries to the dmen. If we re-sign Carle over the summer (or add some other ufa d) it only leaves one more spot (assuming we go with 7 d as usual) since Lilja will count against the cap even if he's sent down... unless Homer pays to get rid of him of course...
I was just pointing out that the three things they said could not possibly happen all happened. Not trying to get into the Homer discussion again, just read the past 400 pages.
EDIT: But I will just add this in there. For all the picks that Homer has "given away," he has also got a number of picks back. But they don't count, right? Terrible idea to trade picks away. Worthless when he gets them back.
I feel like a good way to talk about this whole situation--if it hasn't been brought up--is illegal hits. In this case, Holmgren's risks are like an illegal shot to the head. Holmgren recalls Matt Walker. Maybe a team claims him (suspension), maybe he makes it through (no suspension).
The claim itself/the ruling is a subjective thing, but it doesn't change the fact that the decision to recall Walker/hit the guy in the head is stupid.
I mean, for the people defending Holmgren--and this goes back to Beef's concrete headbutting comment--are you the people who only want to punish players for dirty hits if the victim winds up injured? I'm not saying that Holmgren's actions should be looked upon as 'illegal,' it's all just an analogy. I don't even hate Holmgren, but the worship he gets as all-knowing is hilarious. I think it's been pretty clear that the guy has a vague idea of what he wants but does everything by the seat of his pants.
How can we argue when the judge, jury and executioner has already found that his move was wrong, no matter how it ended up? You state as a fact that it was "dumb"; no room for debate... and this is coming from someone who claims the supporters are "all-knowing". Can you see a tinge of hypocrisy in that at all?
I believe it was before Brayden Schenn's contract bonuses were known.
He didn't sign a new contract with the Flyers, which means the writer didn't do his research at all or couldn't find out and decided to write the article knowing he was missing information. Not much of a defense.
He didn't sign a new contract with the Flyers, which means the writer didn't do his research at all or couldn't find out and decided to write the article knowing he was missing information. Not much of a defense.
Nobody had that information. Not even Capgeek knew it, and he gets his information directly from the league. Everybody was writing their lineups all summer without that information, so hopefully you show scorn to the writers who actually get paid.
