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Old
12-01-2011, 01:50 PM
  #101
WestIslander
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For all of you that are **** on me for reporting Timmins failures for the past decade, show me another team that screwed up between 2002 and 2008 that much with so many talented players available after they drafted?

Also, in regards to Timmins and Gauthier and even Gainey, they have had almost a decade to re-build and win the cup, they have not won anything, only two playoff rounds since and that was all because of a hot goalie and good coaching.

In my opinion, the system here is flawed and until they have this "French Speaking Only" rule for GM's and coaches, Montreal won't win anything more than two playoff rounds.

They lost to a team that is second to last in the NHL last night and showed no heart, no fight and no inspiration.


Last edited by Majik1987: 12-01-2011 at 02:52 PM. Reason: filter circumvention
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12-01-2011, 01:51 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
For all of you that are **** on me for reporting Timmins failures for the past decade, show me another team that screwed up between 2002 and 2008 that much with so many talented players available after they drafted?

Also, in regards to Timmins and Gauthier and even Gainey, they have had almost a decade to re-build and win the cup, they have not won anything, only two playoff rounds since and that was all because of a hot goalie and good coaching.

In my opinion, the system here is flawed and until they have this "French Speaking Only" rule for GM's and coaches, Montreal won't win anything more than two playoff rounds.

They lost to a team that is second to last in the NHL last night and showed no heart, no fight and no inspiration.

WRONG ! Bilingual is the word !


Last edited by Majik1987: 12-01-2011 at 02:52 PM.
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12-01-2011, 01:52 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
Just to name a few, here is where Timmins *** up big time:

2002:
- Drafted Chris Higgins(14) over Cam Ward(25)

1 15 Edmonton Jesse Niinimaki
1 16 Ottawa Jakub Klepis
1 17 Washington Boyd Gordon
1 18 Los Angeles Denis Grebeshkov
1 19 Phoenix Jakub Koreis
1 20 Buffalo Daniel Paille
1 21 Chicago Anton Babchuk
1 22 NY Islanders Sean Bergenheim
1 23 Phoenix Ben Eager
1 24 Toronto Alexander Steen


2003:
- Drafted Andrei Kostitsyn over Jeff Carter, Dustin Brown, Brent Seabrook, Zach Parise, Ryan Getzlaf, Ryan Kesler, Mike Richards, Corey Perry, Loui Eriksson, Patrice Bergeron
- Drafted Maxime Lapierre over David Backes

2004:
- Drafted Kyle Chipchura(18) over Travis Zajac, Mike Green or Brandon Dubinsky (60)
1 19 NY Rangers Lauri Korpikoski
1 22 San Jose Lukas Kaspar
1 24 Calgary Kris Chucko
1 25 Edmonton Rob Schremp
30 Tampa Bay Andy Rogers
2 31 Pittsburgh Johannes Salmonsson
2 33 Washington Chris Bourque
2 34 Dallas Johan Fransson
2 35 Phoenix Logan Stephenson
2 36 NY Rangers Darin Olver
2 37 Florida David Shantz
2 38 Carolina Justin Peters
2 39 Anaheim Jordan Smith
2 40 Atlanta Grant Lewis
2 41 Chicago Bryan Bickell
2 42 Minnesota Roman Voloshenko
2 43 Buffalo Mike Funk
2 44 Edmonton Roman Tesliuk
2 45 Chicago Ryan Garlock
2 46 Columbus Adam Pineault
2 47 NY Islanders Blake Comeau
2 48 NY Rangers Dane Byers
2 49 St. Louis Carl Soderberg
2 50 Phoenix Enver Lisin
2 51 NY Rangers Bruce Graham
2 52 Dallas Raymond Sawada
2 54 Chicago Jakub Sindel
2 55 Colorado Victor Oreskovich
2 57 Edmonton Geoff Paukovich
2 58 Ottawa Kirill Lyamin
2 59 Columbus Kyle Wharton




2005:
- Drafted Guillaume Latendresse (45) over Kristopher Letang (62)

2 46 NY Islanders Dustin Kohn
2 47 Colorado Tom Fritsche
2 48 Buffalo Philipp Gogulla
2 49 Atlanta Chad Denny
2 50 Los Angeles Dany Roussin
2 51 Vancouver Mason Raymond
2 52 Colorado Chris Durand
2 53 Atlanta Andrew Kozek
2 54 Chicago Dan Bertram
2 55 Columbus Adam McQuaid
2 56 NY Rangers Marc-Andre Cliche
2 57 Minnesota Matt Kassian
2 58 Carolina Nate Hagemo
2 59 Phoenix Pier-Olivier Pelletier
2 60 Los Angeles T.J. Fast
2 61 Pittsburgh Michael Gergen



2006:
- Drafted David Fischer(20) over Claude Giroux(22)
1 15 Tampa Bay Riku Heleni
1 16 San Jose Ty Wishart
1 17 Los Angeles Trevor Lewi
1 19 Anaheim Mark Mitera
1 21 NY Rangers Bob Sanguinetti

- Drafted Ben Maxwell(49) over Milan Lucic(50)
2 31 St. Louis Tomas Kana
2 32 Pittsburgh Carl Sneep
2 33 Chicago Igor Makarov
2 34 Washington Michal Neuvirth
2 35 Washington Francois Bouchar
2 36 San Jose Jamie McGinn
2 37 Boston Yuri Alexandrov
2 38 Anaheim Bryce Swan
2 39 Philadelphia Andreas Nodl
2 40 Minnesota Ondrej Fiala
2 41 Detroit Cory Emmerton
2 42 Philadelphia Mike Ratchuk
2 43 Atlanta Riley Holzapfel
2 45 Edmonton Jeff Petry
2 47 Detroit Shawn Matthias
2 48 Los Angeles Joey Ryan



2008:
- Traded 25th overall draft pick to Calgary for Alex Tanguay, could of drafted Tyler Ennis or John Carlson
or
1 29 Atlanta Daultan Leveille
1 30 Detroit Thomas McCollum
2 32 Los Angeles Vyacheslav Voyno
2 33 St. Louis Phil McRae
2 34 St. Louis Jake Allen
2 36 NY Islanders Corey Trivino
2 37 Columbus Cody Goloubef
2 38 Nashville Roman Josi
2 39 Anaheim Eric O'Dell
2 40 NY Islanders Aaron Ness
2 41 Vancouver Yann Sauve
2 42 Ottawa Patrick Wiercioc
2 43 Anaheim Justin Schultz


2009, 2010 and 2011 all look bright with Leblanc, Tinordi and Beaulieu but only time will well.

So imagine a team with:

Cam Ward, Travis Zajac, Jeff Carter, Kris Letang, Claude Giroux, Milan Lucic and Tyler Ennis in Montreal with Pacioretty, Subban and the rest?

I can't sleep now!!!
this will help you to sleep


Last edited by Majik1987: 12-01-2011 at 02:53 PM. Reason: qe
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Old
12-01-2011, 01:52 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
For all of you that are ***** on me for reporting Timmins failures for the past decade, show me another team that screwed up between 2002 and 2008 that much with so many talented players available after they drafted?
There are 29 such teams.

Cherry-picking "the guy they could have picked" is about the most pointless and unrealistic way to evaluate a drafter there is. You can make anyone look godawful that way. Every team busts a number of their picks and for every bust you can easily pick an impact player picked later. This is the nature of drafting. It's even sillier if you go so far as to include successful picks (eg. Latendresse) and compare them to players picked later, too.


Last edited by Majik1987: 12-01-2011 at 02:50 PM. Reason: qe
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12-01-2011, 02:42 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
For all of you that are **** on me for reporting Timmins failures for the past decade, show me another team that screwed up between 2002 and 2008 that much with so many talented players available after they drafted?.
Blue Jackets

2003: Pick Zherdev
Miss out on: Vanek, Phaneuf, Carter, Brown, Seabrook, Parise, Richards, Kesler

2004. Pick Picard
miss out on: smid, Stafford, Zajac, Wolski, Green

2005, Pick: Brule
miss out on: Setoguchi, Kopitar, Marc Staal, Hanzek, Oshie, Rask

2006 Pick Brassard
Miss out on Mueller, Chris Stewart, Giroux, Varlamov, Berglund

2008 Pick Filatov
miss out on Colin Wilson, Myers, Karlsson and Eberle


See,


Last edited by Majik1987: 12-01-2011 at 02:49 PM. Reason: qe / flaming
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Old
12-01-2011, 02:45 PM
  #106
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For all of you people that don't get what I am saying, here is fact:

In 2003 Andre Savard told Gainey to pick Jeff Carter because he is exactly the type of player they needed and Timmins said NO! Go with Kostitsyn whom he (at the time) called the next "Kovalchuk" and possible 1st overall if it was not for his epilepsy.

In 2006 the team was heavily scouting Claude Giroux but Gainey listened to Timmins and Timmins said to take the defenseman from the US, his name, David Fischer.

In 2008, Timmins did not make the trade for Tanguay, but if he had went to Gainey with some evidence that with 25th overall they can get a kid that will play in Montreal and play well for 10+ seasons maybe Gainey would of backed off on that deal.

And lastly, I love Pacioretty and McDonagh was the one that got away, Eller will be excellent and I can see it, but they were once again heavily scouting David Perron that season and DID NOT pick him, imagine a Perron - Pacioretty draft class that year.

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12-01-2011, 03:02 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
For all of you people that don't get what I am saying, here is fact:

In 2003 Andre Savard told Gainey to pick Jeff Carter because he is exactly the type of player they needed and Timmins said NO! Go with Kostitsyn whom he (at the time) called the next "Kovalchuk" and possible 1st overall if it was not for his epilepsy.

In 2006 the team was heavily scouting Claude Giroux but Gainey listened to Timmins and Timmins said to take the defenseman from the US, his name, David Fischer.

In 2008, Timmins did not make the trade for Tanguay, but if he had went to Gainey with some evidence that with 25th overall they can get a kid that will play in Montreal and play well for 10+ seasons maybe Gainey would of backed off on that deal.

And lastly, I love Pacioretty and McDonagh was the one that got away, Eller will be excellent and I can see it, but they were once again heavily scouting David Perron that season and DID NOT pick him, imagine a Perron - Pacioretty draft class that year.
-Every scouting service in the world ranked Andrei Kostitsyn ahead of Jeff Carter in 2003. So you have many more guilty parties to point the finger at aside from Timmins. Ironically, the people who criticize the Habs for never going for the home run pick fail to realize that Kostitsyn was just that - and what happens when your home run swing turns into more of a single at best.

-The team "heavily scouting" Giroux is just conjecture and has no real relevance. The Canadiens "heavily scout" players all year, busts and superstars alike. Again, David Fischer was picked roughly where many scouting organizations had him ranked. He wasn't considered a reach. Bobby Sanguinetti, Riku Helenius, Mark Mitera, Trevor Lewis, James Sheppard and Jiri Tlusty were all players other teams considered more worthy of drafting than Giroux.

-This is entirely your own conjecture and is in no way steeped in reality or fact. You have no idea what the process leading up to the Tanguay trade was, so don't act like you do. The GM trades the draft picks, not the scout, so I don't see how you're trying to pin this on Timmins.

-Basically you're just saying "who cares if Timmins picked 2 good players, he didn't pick the one I wanted". The difference between Pacioretty/McDonagh and Pacioretty/Perron is pretty minute.

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12-01-2011, 04:03 PM
  #108
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There are 29 such teams.

Cherry-picking "the guy they could have picked" is about the most pointless and unrealistic way to evaluate a drafter there is. You can make anyone look godawful that way. Every team busts a number of their picks and for every bust you can easily pick an impact player picked later. This is the nature of drafting. It's even sillier if you go so far as to include successful picks (eg. Latendresse) and compare them to players picked later, too.
Yes, and 29 teams need to fire their staff. This is the Montreal Canadiens, and we need a draft GURU.

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12-01-2011, 04:10 PM
  #109
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This is what happens when easily impressionable kids read someone like Bertrand Raymond.

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12-01-2011, 04:41 PM
  #110
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Wow, some people need to calm down. We had some bad luck in the first round, but overall, I'd say that we are one of the best teams in the league when it comes to drafting.

What I don't get is that it's the same people that blame the habs of trading away young assets for nothing, and saying that we don't draft well.

IMO you need good drafting if you want to move thoses "good" assets for nothing. So if you want to have a rant on how we are managing our assets, at least give credit to timmins for drafting well and making those assets available.

If you think the Habs are that bad, then lets just fire him and hire the Flames staff.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005090.html

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12-01-2011, 06:58 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by terreur View Post

If you think the Habs are that bad, then lets just fire him and hire the Flames staff.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005090.html

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12-01-2011, 07:16 PM
  #112
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Bona fide current NHLers drafted by Montreal, ranked by points (or GP for goalies):

Forwards
Koivu 749
Ribeiro 512
Ryder 350
Plekanec 332
Higgins 209
A Kostitsyn 196
Asham 196
Latendresse 136
S Kostitsyn 129
Lapierre 91
D'Agostini 81
Pacioretty 68
White 7

Defense
Markov 366
Streit 226
Robidas 213
Clark 175
Hainsey 171
Beauchemin 142
Komisarek 76
Subban 50
O'Byrne 29
Weber 20
McDonough 19
Carkner 19
Emelin 0

Goal
Vokoun 650
Theodore 598
Garon 289
Price 227
Halak 171

Find me another team that has that type of depth, especially in net (5 deep) and on the blueline (13).

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12-01-2011, 07:19 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
Yes, and 29 teams need to fire their staff. This is the Montreal Canadiens, and we need a draft GURU.
it's actually 30 teams who miss on good players on a regular basis... should the ALL be fired ?

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12-02-2011, 12:02 PM
  #114
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it's actually 30 teams who miss on good players on a regular basis... should the ALL be fired ?
I'll stick my two bits in here and give my vote to Gauthier,Timmins and the Scouting team they have in place.The ultimate prize being a team that is being groomed for greatness and not personal gratification,unlike their forerunners.After over fifty years as a loyal fan,I will be a Hab fanatic until the day I stop breathing.This Management team is building the team as it would have been done by former great GM's in this "era".

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12-02-2011, 12:13 PM
  #115
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Timmins has done well. But the team as a whole has a large gap in between the young players playing right now and the next wave. No Canadiens draft pick past 2007 has actually played an NHL game other than Leblanc. A lot of that would have to do with the trading of picks - i.e. no 1st in 2008, no 2nd in 2009, no 2nd or 3rd in 2010.

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12-02-2011, 12:15 PM
  #116
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Good lord, people act like drafting is an exact science.

No team in the nhl is having success in every round of the draft.

People cry about Perron when we got 2 players as good as him with Pacioretty and McDonagh. Hell even Subban is more valuabe than him to a nhl team.

In 2009, Marcus Johansson was picked after Louis Leblanc and some scouts had him before Leblanc. He's more talented than Leblanc. Could you imagine the hystery in Quebec if we had pick Johansson who is going to be an excellent centre.

I like Louis too but Johansson when a better choice.


I hate it here with the fans or so-called fans of the Canadiens. Support them when they win, ***** about them when they lost. Even the ''Experts'' on RDS are just as bad, no knowledge of players at ALL.

Bertrand Raymond needs so stop writing and realize he's in 2011 where there is less an less quebec born players and try to follow others prospects before making a judgement.

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12-02-2011, 12:19 PM
  #117
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Also, in regards to Timmins and Gauthier and even Gainey, they have had almost a decade to re-build and win the cup, they have not won anything, only two playoff rounds since and that was all because of a hot goalie and good coaching.
Do other teams win play off rounds by other methods than good coaching and players playing well?

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12-02-2011, 12:21 PM
  #118
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Good lord, people act like drafting is an exact science.

No team in the nhl is having success in every round of the draft.

People cry about Perron when we got 2 players as good as him with Pacioretty and McDonagh. Hell even Subban is more valuabe than him to a nhl team.

In 2009, Marcus Johansson was picked after Louis Leblanc and some scouts had him before Leblanc. He's more talented than Leblanc. Could you imagine the hystery in Quebec if we had pick Johansson who is going to be an excellent centre.

I like Louis too but Johansson when a better choice.


I hate it here with the fans or so-called fans of the Canadiens. Support them when they win, ***** about them when they lost. Even the ''Experts'' on RDS are just as bad, no knowledge of players at ALL.

Bertrand Raymond needs so stop writing and realize he's in 2011 where there is less an less quebec born players and try to follow others prospects before making a judgement.
You are right. When Leblanc was selected, Gainey told the media (paraphrase) that the team had an imperative to take Quebec-born players. So Leblanc's selection was definitely a nod to those complaining of the success of Quebec-born players elsewhere. There was a lot of that in 2007, too, for not trading up a couple for Angelo Esposito..good dodge there.

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12-02-2011, 12:38 PM
  #119
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This is what happens when easily impressionable kids read someone like Bertrand Raymond.
Pretty much sums up this entire thread.

Raymond (for once) got slammed hard by folks who comment on RDS...

Half the article is misinformation. Timmins has drafted quite well, he's had some misses... just like every other team. He has the ability to find diamonds int he rough tough like Subban and Halak.

And like some posters also stated, drafting isn't an exact science, look at Alexandre Daigle (1st overall) or at Luc Robitaille (9the round phenom) or even Martin St-Louis (undrafted player that could make a case for the HoF).

I mean Timmins is one of the only people in our management group that I'd make sure to keep.

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12-02-2011, 12:59 PM
  #120
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Wow, some people need to calm down. We had some bad luck in the first round, but overall, I'd say that we are one of the best teams in the league when it comes to drafting.

What I don't get is that it's the same people that blame the habs of trading away young assets for nothing, and saying that we don't draft well.

IMO you need good drafting if you want to move thoses "good" assets for nothing. So if you want to have a rant on how we are managing our assets, at least give credit to timmins for drafting well and making those assets available.

If you think the Habs are that bad, then lets just fire him and hire the Flames staff.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005090.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00006929.html

True Habs got a way better record compared to the Flames... last good player from Flames was Phaneuf, before that maybe it goes up to Theo Fleury lol !!!

The problem is not Timmins but the GM... trading our good young players !

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12-02-2011, 01:13 PM
  #121
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Timmins has done well. But the team as a whole has a large gap in between the young players playing right now and the next wave. No Canadiens draft pick past 2007 has actually played an NHL game other than Leblanc. A lot of that would have to do with the trading of picks - i.e. no 1st in 2008, no 2nd in 2009, no 2nd or 3rd in 2010.
I suspect it has more to do with the fact that the oldest of these guys would be 21, and that's awfully young to be a NHLer on a team that doesn't suck.

A team with less depth might have kept Beaulieu after camp, for example. The Habs had enough D-men that they had no dire need to do so.

(Read the Globe and Mail lately? Gordon's article on the Habs draft was awful on a number of levels, not least of which was picking the cutoff date so as to carefully exclude the Habs' excellent 2007 draft year.)

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12-02-2011, 01:42 PM
  #122
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I suspect it has more to do with the fact that the oldest of these guys would be 21, and that's awfully young to be a NHLer on a team that doesn't suck.

A team with less depth might have kept Beaulieu after camp, for example. The Habs had enough D-men that they had no dire need to do so.

(Read the Globe and Mail lately? Gordon's article on the Habs draft was awful on a number of levels, not least of which was picking the cutoff date so as to carefully exclude the Habs' excellent 2007 draft year.)
Oh, I did. We could quibble about the age thing: if Leblanc played like Subban did at age 21, he'd have made the team out of camp, for example. But I will concede that. None of the team's drafts since 2007 seem to have been as productive so far though, even in terms of sheer number of players selected (which is the only way to measure 2010). So my point is that I doubt that having fewer picks helped much.

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12-02-2011, 02:09 PM
  #123
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Oh, I did. We could quibble about the age thing: if Leblanc played like Subban did at age 21, he'd have made the team out of camp, for example.
Yes but only exceptional players do that and they don't usually get drafted past the first 10 picks. (Yes -- Subban is an exceptional player.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by smon View Post
None of the team's drafts since 2007 seem to have been as productive so far though, even in terms of sheer number of players selected (which is the only way to measure 2010).
We'll have to see. Leblanc certainly looks like a NHLer in the short term and Beaulieu is highly touted and some called to keep him in the NHL out of his very first training camp. Not as enamored of the Tinordi pick, but he is not a type of player I am very fond of so I admit to some bias there.

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12-02-2011, 02:23 PM
  #124
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You are right. When Leblanc was selected, Gainey told the media (paraphrase) that the team had an imperative to take Quebec-born players. So Leblanc's selection was definitely a nod to those complaining of the success of Quebec-born players elsewhere. There was a lot of that in 2007, too, for not trading up a couple for Angelo Esposito..good dodge there.
I think Gainey's comments were more to placate the people clamoring for more Quebec born players than the actual selection was.

The Canadiens' stance has always been that they place utmost importance on local talent, and Gainey was just reinforcing that. Now whether you believe it to be true is a whole other thing...

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12-03-2011, 12:41 AM
  #125
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Bertrand Raymond throwing another arrow (for no reason) at the Habs organisation tonight at l'Anti-chambre.

He said : For the Habs, signing Desharnais after his junior career was a PR move. They didn't thought that he could play in the NHL. At least signing DD showed that the Habs cared about quebecers. However, DD shut their mouths when he scored 106 points in his first pro season.


WTF Bertrand? Give props where props is due! The Habs gave DD a chance to play professionnal hockey. They probably didn't had high expectations, like it's the case for any undrafted overager coming out of the CHL, but it doesn't mean that Habs' management didn't care about Desharnais.

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