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Old
12-03-2011, 04:02 AM
  #26
MasterDecoy
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not to repeat what everyone has been saying before but i'll add that as each day passes, desharnais is slowly placing himself on that list... cheap two-year contract and he's producing at a second line center's pace and he's gonna get better. if the perfect deal comes along yes, but not as a throwaway.

hope PG knows this...

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Old
12-03-2011, 07:38 AM
  #27
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Hi there. The past weeks made me reevaluate my personnel assessment for the future development of the Habs team. Thinking mid-to-long term, I came to this list of players I think should be untouchable and/or resigned as soon as possible.

The core to select for our D is easy to pick. Conditionally to Markov's return:

Markov - Emelin
Gorges - Subban

(don't read too much into the lineup order)

Gill, for as his failings, should still have a role with us. His PK skill are simply out of this world, and we owe him more games than he cost us. But I don't see him as a top-4. Maybe a bottom-2 with PK specialist duties. If we can't offer him a contract under those circumstances, I'd like to see him with the coaching staff.

For our forward, it's a bit harder to pick. I can't only tell you the list of players I believe are essential to our team's future:

Plekanec
Pacioretty
Desharnais
Cole

That's about it. Gionta & Cammelari, for all their strong point, just don't seem to light the spark. It's okay to have bad sequences, but they seem to be unable to shock themselves out of it, and can't seem to help other provoke things, like Cole would usually do in his own time.

Eller is still struggling, and can't seem to find a regular pace.

Comments? (and forget the goalie, off course Price is part of our future!)
bro if DD and Cole are part of ypur core we are fkd

the only players part of a core moving forward are Price , PK, Eller and Max on this current roster

Georges I think will be gone as a UFA as some team will put a dumb Wiz type offer on the table and Georges at 27 has to go for the home run .

The rest either though age , lack of upside , free aganecy etc... are not core players

I like Pleks but I have seen the same story for 5 years , a playoff bust when you need him

Markov is done , accept it folks his best days are over and a dumb signing

Cole , like I said before no big deal , 20 goals , but I needed Cole at 24 not 34 and near the end of his career

hopefully one day , Nathan B , Kristo, Leblanc, Tinordi and Gallahager can be core players , but if you think the rest of this roster is CORE MATERIAL , keep drinking the Kool Aid folks .

I have said for years on this site , we have had no core since our cup , mish ,mash
and now this year with 2/3`s of this roster in free agency it will be the same thing all over again , scrambling to put a roster on the ice , and overpaying like we did 3 years ago for guys like Cammy .

you want a core moving forward , Giroux, JVR, Cotourier , Schenn , Voracek , Simmonds, Read , Coburn , etc..
all young with more upside . And I didnt mention Briere, Hartnell, etc...

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Old
12-03-2011, 07:41 AM
  #28
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bro if DD and Cole are part of ypur core we are fkd
Well it depends how long you consider your core to be.

Because right now, DD is our best offensive center at 5-5.

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Old
12-03-2011, 09:17 AM
  #29
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Price 5.75m
Subban 4m
Gorges 3.75m
Plekanec 5m
Pacioretty 1.625m
Eller 1.625m
Emelin 1.625m
Markov
(if healthy) 5.75m
Desharnais (borderline, not a fan, but he is quietly changing my view point, don't see him as second line center on a winning team, struggles against top opposition having said that, if we could insulate him with Power forwards like Cole, pacioretty, he's more than ok) 1.625m[

B]Cole[/B] (If we're looking to contend now, he's fine, need some vets)4.5m
Kostitsyn (no one likes him, but I do and have np with him on our roster going forward) 3.9m
Moen I like him, although he isn't really a core player, he's useful to a successful team for sure 1.8m

It's funny, all of the key guys that I consider core or intergal to the teams success now and in the future, only Cole/moen were signed as an UFA, the rest came from within or trades.

I believe that core is pretty damn solid imo. If we could only get rid of Gomez/Cammy/Gionta/Gill/Spacek/ and spend that oodles of cash on players who are somewhat worth it, we'd be all set. I'd start by moving them all. I think we can remain competitive with the core a highlighted and the players acquired for the guys I don't want would keep them in the hunt. The core is strong enough to contend for a playoff spot while building our future with picks/prospects, lesser proven NHLers with some upside. All Gomez/cammy/gionta/gill/spacek could be had for a price imo. If Markov doesn't regain health, we've got more money to spend again.

Gallagher/Beaulieu/Perhaps Tinordi (not a fan) perhaps Leblanc (not a fan)

40.95 cap space. With the core players roughly, plenty of room to maneuver as long as we don't take any bloated contracts in return for the non core players. Hopefully a few can graduate to the big club at cost friendly numbers and we add as required to fill holes.

I know it's a dream world, or a NHL12 exercise, but fun anyways.

Price

Subban Gorges
Markov Yemelin
X x


X Pleks Pacioretty
X DD Cole
Moen Eller Kostitsyn
X X X

Go hard after Suter and maybe Semin. Fill the rest with big bodies who can crash and bang a bit. Gaustad, Thornton ect.


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Old
12-03-2011, 09:56 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Slick Eller View Post
Its funny how people overrated Desnarhais and not a single mention of Kostitsyn yet. This guy deserve to play elsewhere and be appreciated by his fanbase.

My list will be short and sweet:

Pros:

Price
Subban
Pacioretty

Prospects:

Beaulieu
Gallagher
Kostitsyn is good and gets a lot of credit around here.

But because you feel one guy you like isn't getting credit, you underrate another.

Desharnais is on pace to basically match Kostitsyn's best career totals in his first full year.

They both have very similar career PPG too. Just saying.

Both are very solid players and hopefully are with the team for a long-time.

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Old
12-03-2011, 12:28 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
[B]If we could only get rid of Gomez/Cammy/Gionta/Gill/Spacek/ and spend that oodles of cash on players who are somewhat worth it, we'd be all set. I'd start by moving them all.
OK, so you suggest getting rid of four players who were among the key guys during our run to the Cup semi-finals. The risk of doing so aside, what I question is your statement that we could save oodles of cash and thus be free to spend the money on players who are "worth it".

The problem is that is much harder than some folks think.

If you want to spend cash on a younger player, you have to give up an equally good younger player. A Tyler Myers might be a great investment, but you may have to give up Patches or Subban to get him. A Stamkos would be terrific, but might cost half the team besides his salary.

The only players a team can acquire for nothing are either Unrestricted Free Agents or players under contract who are vastly overpaid. Eliminate the latter since the requirement is to spend on players "worht the money".

So we are down to UFA players. There are 30 teams chasing these players and each one generally goes to the team that MOST needs/wants him and can thus pay the most. Competing in this arena is not a way to get bargains.

Of course Gomez is way overpaid right now, and Spacek is gone at the end of the year, but getting rid of Gionta, Cammalleri and even Gill will probably not save money if the objective is to get equally good UFA players in their place.

People just have to accept that in the economic world the NHL teams live in, UFAs and their "overpaid" salaries are a normal phenomenon for just about every team to deal with, and the cap is high enough to accommodate them.

Example: Eric Cole fills a need for the Habs and costs $4.5M. Sure there are a handful of guys in the league under contract for $3.0M who might be able to do the same job for less money for a while (until their next increase) but the club would have had to give up an equally good player and/or sure prospects to get him!!! That would not have moved the Habs ahead much, whereas paying the extra $1.5M did. Every other club is in the same boat. Teams can hope for a great trade (i.e. Rivet for Gorges and Pacioretty from the Habs point of view, or Ribeiro for Ninimaa from the Stars point of view) but only one team can win a lopsided trade and those can always go both ways. Or one could hope for a draft pick that overperforms like Subban, but again, some will underperform like Fischer.

Thee is no avoiding playing in the UFA sandbox if teams want to compete.

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Old
12-03-2011, 12:47 PM
  #32
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OK, so you suggest getting rid of four players who were among the key guys during our run to the Cup semi-finals. The risk of doing so aside, what I question is your statement that we could save oodles of cash and thus be free to spend the money on players who are "worth it".

The problem is that is much harder than some folks think.

If you want to spend cash on a younger player, you have to give up an equally good younger player. A Tyler Myers might be a great investment, but you may have to give up Patches or Subban to get him. A Stamkos would be terrific, but might cost half the team besides his salary.

The only players a team can acquire for nothing are either Unrestricted Free Agents or players under contract who are vastly overpaid. Eliminate the latter since the requirement is to spend on players "worht the money".

So we are down to UFA players. There are 30 teams chasing these players and each one generally goes to the team that MOST needs/wants him and can thus pay the most. Competing in this arena is not a way to get bargains.

Of course Gomez is way overpaid right now, and Spacek is gone at the end of the year, but getting rid of Gionta, Cammalleri and even Gill will probably not save money if the objective is to get equally good UFA players in their place.

People just have to accept that in the economic world the NHL teams live in, UFAs and their "overpaid" salaries are a normal phenomenon for just about every team to deal with, and the cap is high enough to accommodate them.

Example: Eric Cole fills a need for the Habs and costs $4.5M. Sure there are a handful of guys in the league under contract for $3.0M who might be able to do the same job for less money for a while (until their next increase) but the club would have had to give up an equally good player and/or sure prospects to get him!!! That would not have moved the Habs ahead much, whereas paying the extra $1.5M did. Every other club is in the same boat. Teams can hope for a great trade (i.e. Rivet for Gorges and Pacioretty from the Habs point of view, or Ribeiro for Ninimaa from the Stars point of view) but only one team can win a lopsided trade and those can always go both ways. Or one could hope for a draft pick that overperforms like Subban, but again, some will underperform like Fischer.

Thee is no avoiding playing in the UFA sandbox if teams want to compete.
We do have a few prospects and vets we can afford to trade because of talent depth. I keep saying that right now, in the NHL, offensively-talented defensemen are all the rage.

Look at the contracts Erhoff, Hamrlik and Wiz got! They are OVERPRICED! Which means a prospect like Weber, even if not currently dominating, would probably fetch either a developed mid/high offensive talent or an underdeveloped high end talent up front.

The market trend is not something that will last forever. We should bank on it as quickly as possible.

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Old
12-03-2011, 01:46 PM
  #33
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hey everyone, scratch Markov from your core. Looks like he'll have played 60 (if we're lucky) games in the last 3 seasons (including this one)

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Old
12-03-2011, 02:14 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Kostitsyn is good and gets a lot of credit around here.

But because you feel one guy you like isn't getting credit, you underrate another.

Desharnais is on pace to basically match Kostitsyn's best career totals in his first full year.

They both have very similar career PPG too. Just saying.

Both are very solid players and hopefully are with the team for a long-time.
Hi natey2k4,

Its not all about points. Desharnais is weak. He loses every battle for a loose puck in the corner and gets overmatched physically.

He is very gifted offensively and a good vision, but unfortunately for him, he is a cream puff on the ice. Kostitsyn is a much, much better goal scorer, he is a very strong along the board and can bruise other player with hits.

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12-03-2011, 02:18 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Slick Eller View Post
Hi natey2k4,

Its not all about points. Desharnais is weak. He loses every battle for a loose puck in the corner and gets overmatched physically.

He is very gifted offensively and a good vision, but unfortunately for him, he is a cream puff on the ice. Kostitsyn is a much, much better goal scorer, he is a very strong along the board and can bruise other player with hits.
DD works every shift, even if he is physically dominated...

A.K. not !

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Old
12-03-2011, 02:25 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
We do have a few prospects and vets we can afford to trade because of talent depth. I keep saying that right now, in the NHL, offensively-talented defensemen are all the rage.

Look at the contracts Erhoff, Hamrlik and Wiz got! They are OVERPRICED! Which means a prospect like Weber, even if not currently dominating, would probably fetch either a developed mid/high offensive talent or an underdeveloped high end talent up front.

The market trend is not something that will last forever. We should bank on it as quickly as possible.
This is what I was talking about. If we want a young talent we have to give up a young talent. Now, perhaps we can afford to lose one or two of the young offensive RH defencemen we have, and Weber is actually expendable. I can buy that. But that is still very different than what the other fellow said, which was to dump Gionta and Cammalleri in order to use cash to get other proven talent in its place (presumably also UFA talent).

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Old
12-03-2011, 02:33 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Slick Eller View Post
Hi natey2k4,

Its not all about points. Desharnais is weak. He loses every battle for a loose puck in the corner and gets overmatched physically.

He is very gifted offensively and a good vision, but unfortunately for him, he is a cream puff on the ice. Kostitsyn is a much, much better goal scorer, he is a very strong along the board and can bruise other player with hits.
I'm sorry, but Desharnais doesn't lose every battle. Sure, he loses some but that's because he's ALWAYS DIGGING for the puck. DD is gritty as hell.

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12-03-2011, 02:50 PM
  #38
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At this stage and with the outlook of this team, I would try to trade Cammy, Gionta (Gomez, of course)...the fiasco created by gainey 3 years ago. Gill and Spacek - two other "clever" decisions" are goner, anyway. Just Moen deserves to be re-signed (among that bunch of castoffs acquired by Gainey).

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12-03-2011, 04:05 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
I'm sorry, but Desharnais doesn't lose every battle. Sure, he loses some but that's because he's ALWAYS DIGGING for the puck. DD is gritty as hell.
Desharnais isn't a wuss, but for god sake, he isn't grittu as hell. He is overmatched and push around very easily in the corner, which makes him lose way more battle for the puck than he wins. If you don't see that, then you must have a man crush on him.

Andrei Kostitsyn is the same age, way better all around player and Desharnais doesn't have anything on him for considering him a core player to keep over AK.

Kostitsyn, even if he played only 17 games, has been our best forward.

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12-03-2011, 04:11 PM
  #40
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OK, so you suggest getting rid of four players who were among the key guys during our run to the Cup semi-finals. The risk of doing so aside, what I question is your statement that we could save oodles of cash and thus be free to spend the money on players who are "worth it".

The problem is that is much harder than some folks think.

If you want to spend cash on a younger player, you have to give up an equally good younger player. A Tyler Myers might be a great investment, but you may have to give up Patches or Subban to get him. A Stamkos would be terrific, but might cost half the team besides his salary.

The only players a team can acquire for nothing are either Unrestricted Free Agents or players under contract who are vastly overpaid. Eliminate the latter since the requirement is to spend on players "worht the money".

So we are down to UFA players. There are 30 teams chasing these players and each one generally goes to the team that MOST needs/wants him and can thus pay the most. Competing in this arena is not a way to get bargains.

Of course Gomez is way overpaid right now, and Spacek is gone at the end of the year, but getting rid of Gionta, Cammalleri and even Gill will probably not save money if the objective is to get equally good UFA players in their place.

People just have to accept that in the economic world the NHL teams live in, UFAs and their "overpaid" salaries are a normal phenomenon for just about every team to deal with, and the cap is high enough to accommodate them.

Example: Eric Cole fills a need for the Habs and costs $4.5M. Sure there are a handful of guys in the league under contract for $3.0M who might be able to do the same job for less money for a while (until their next increase) but the club would have had to give up an equally good player and/or sure prospects to get him!!! That would not have moved the Habs ahead much, whereas paying the extra $1.5M did. Every other club is in the same boat. Teams can hope for a great trade (i.e. Rivet for Gorges and Pacioretty from the Habs point of view, or Ribeiro for Ninimaa from the Stars point of view) but only one team can win a lopsided trade and those can always go both ways. Or one could hope for a draft pick that overperforms like Subban, but again, some will underperform like Fischer.

Thee is no avoiding playing in the UFA sandbox if teams want to compete.
I said it was a fun exercise akin to NHL12, I think you may have took it too literally. lol

moving the guys I said isn't that hard at all though. Cammy/Gionta still have value and could prolly land a 1st/prospect each, Gill/spacek simply not re-signed if they can't be moved. There's 4 gone.

Gomez, is a bulldog, done.

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Old
12-03-2011, 04:45 PM
  #41
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Well it depends how long you consider your core to be.

Because right now, DD is our best offensive center at 5-5.
then all I can say brother is GOD HELP US

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Old
12-03-2011, 05:28 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Slick Eller View Post
Desharnais isn't a wuss, but for god sake, he isn't grittu as hell. He is overmatched and push around very easily in the corner, which makes him lose way more battle for the puck than he wins. If you don't see that, then you must have a man crush on him.

Andrei Kostitsyn is the same age, way better all around player and Desharnais doesn't have anything on him for considering him a core player to keep over AK.

Kostitsyn, even if he played only 17 games, has been our best forward.
Keep making stuff up. That'll make me argree with you.

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Old
12-03-2011, 05:31 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Cammalleri - Plekanec - Leblanc
Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole
Kostitsyn - Eller - Gallagher
White - Bournival - probably a defenseman

Markov - Emelin
Gorges - Subban
Diaz- Beaulieu
St-Denis

Not saying this will be a team, but the guys in bold are who I expect to have the biggest impact and would all require overpayments to take from me if I was GM. I didn't bold Kostitsyn cause I'm not sure he stays. Markov --- who knows if he will ever come back lol. Diaz and Emelin both need improvements, but are both playing above my expectations so far. Weber has played himself out of the future in the last few weeks (after such an amazing start too.. too bad).

If I had to pick young guys who I would keep unless there was a severe overpayment (right now), I'd go with;

1) Eller
2) Subban
3) Desharnais
4) Gallagher
5) Leblanc

I'm HUGE on Bournival though and Emelin, I love his hitting. Damn it, I forgot Beaulieu. We have some nice prospects, that's for sure!
Great post. I agree with everything you said. Not saying Leblanc will become a legitimate first liner but he could hold his own on a first line for a while.

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12-03-2011, 06:46 PM
  #44
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Not saying Leblanc will become a legitimate first liner but he could hold his own on a first line for a while.
Funny, but you know what I was thinking today? As a twenty year old, Louis Leblanc has already shown me more in the NHL than Aaron Palushaj has at twenty-two.

Of course Leblanc still needs to get stronger and a bit quicker, but I'm sure he will. He has succeeded at every level he has ever played.

My prediction: in two years time, Leblanc will be a legit second line forward in the NHL.

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12-03-2011, 06:49 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I said it was a fun exercise akin to NHL12, I think you may have took it too literally. lol

moving the guys I said isn't that hard at all though. Cammy/Gionta still have value and could prolly land a 1st/prospect each, Gill/spacek simply not re-signed if they can't be moved. There's 4 gone.

Gomez, is a bulldog, done.
I'm not disputing the suggestion that, unlike the situation with Gomez, we could find someone to take Cammalleri or Gionta off our hands for little or no return. My point is simply that the cash saved can't be better spent than on more of the same. That's simply the economics of the NHL and the UFA market.

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12-03-2011, 07:40 PM
  #46
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I'm not disputing the suggestion that, unlike the situation with Gomez, we could find someone to take Cammalleri or Gionta off our hands for little or no return. My point is simply that the cash saved can't be better spent than on more of the same. That's simply the economics of the NHL and the UFA market.
True and I wasn't really disputing that, but we could replace them potentially with the return (depending if we could get a promising player like Eller or similar idea) or we could go after a different free agent that would offer a different element along the lines of cole/ pacioretty.

I'm not a size is everything type guy, but desharnais, pleks, cammy, gionta, gomez are similar in size and stature all offering their unique skillsets that on their own are effective, but collectively they are way too small.

I'd be fine with keeping one of cammy/gionta.

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12-03-2011, 07:45 PM
  #47
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Holy hell, how sick is our D core going to be in the next couple years?

Tinord-Gorges Great defensive line with offensive potential

Subban-Beaulieu Amazing offensive tandem, with tremendous upside

Emelin-Markov A good line with a mix of hard hitting, offense, and a good veteren presence

I love it, Cant wait for these lines

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12-03-2011, 08:43 PM
  #48
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I wouldn't count on many of the vets, in fact I have no problem with moving Markov (too much risk), Gionta, Cammalleri, Gomez, Spacek or Gill in trades at all. Maybe Kostitsyn and Moen, but I wouldn't mind keeping them as supporting role guys...

I would build around Price, Pacioretty, Eller, Subban, Emelin and Gorges. Would keep Cole, Plekanec and White also.

I would sign or trade the above mentioned Habs for vets with short term deals in anticipation of bringing up Leblanc, Beaulieu, Tinordi and Gallagher in the future.


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12-03-2011, 08:45 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by habsfan2772 View Post
Holy hell, how sick is our D core going to be in the next couple years?

Tinord-Gorges Great defensive line with offensive potential

Subban-Beaulieu Amazing offensive tandem, with tremendous upside

Emelin-Markov A good line with a mix of hard hitting, offense, and a good veteren presence

I love it, Cant wait for these lines
The fact that that D will be in front of Price!

I suppose we really are building from the net out haha

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12-04-2011, 10:14 AM
  #50
MasterDecoy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Eller View Post
Hi natey2k4,

Its not all about points. Desharnais is weak. He loses every battle for a loose puck in the corner and gets overmatched physically.

He is very gifted offensively and a good vision, but unfortunately for him, he is a cream puff on the ice. Kostitsyn is a much, much better goal scorer, he is a very strong along the board and can bruise other player with hits.
wrong.

check boucher scouting. dd wins more puck battles than he loses. he does get pushed around and sometimes you can even measure his airtime, so maybe that's what sticking out in your mind. pay attention to him the next time he is behind the net, he is unbelievable there.

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