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Gm #26 Kings v. Canadiens, 12/3/11 - Post Game LOSS, Thoughts & Tidbits

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12-03-2011, 06:40 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Do people think Subban dived on that play? I thought it was more of a really poor decision made by Williams than a dive...
Williams but no weight into that bump. Of course Subban embellished it. Habs fans even acknowledged it.

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12-03-2011, 06:40 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Frolov 6'3 View Post
One a positive note, I'm starting to see the old Drew again. That's a good thing.
Yeah, he did look a little more like his old self today.

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Originally Posted by Shellz View Post
Posityive note, Penner was great. Kings really need him, hope he can keep up the energy. Doughty was fantastic.
Penner did look good, I was glad to see it.

Honestly, it really doesn't matter what the reason is anymore, this team is way too talented to only be able to manage 1 or 2 goals a game, even with Richards on the shelf. Fair or not, you can't fire 25 players, but you can fire the coaches. It seems clear that needs to happen if this team is going to take the net step.

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12-03-2011, 06:43 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Wanted to add to this,

Being last on 5-5 on scoring means nothing right now, would anyone have had a problem if the Kings had an amazing night and went 4-6 on the PP and won 4-2, despite not scoring any 5-5 goals?
Being last in the league in 5 on 5 scoring means WAY more than your PP numbers. You can't depend on getting 6 PP per game any more than you can reasonably expect to score at a 66% rate on the PP.

Being last in pretty much ANYTHING positive is bad...

Edit: Since the lockout, the league leader in PP% has been right around 25%

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12-03-2011, 06:46 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
Being last in the league in 5 on 5 scoring means WAY more than your PP numbers. You can't depend on getting 6 PP per game any more than you can reasonably expect to score at a 66% rate on the PP.

Being last in pretty much ANYTHING positive is bad...
To your first paragrahp, At this point in time, no it doesn't.

And of course being last in anything positive is bad, no one ever said it wasn't.

The entire time, you, Sydor, and Herby have been harping on this, I keep on saying, and will continue until it changes, is that they are generating the chances, they hit two posts tonight, a few posts a game it seems they are hitting, they had quite a few good chances, that they need to bury. Once the CHANCES start drying up, THEN you have a case of it being a flawed offensive system.

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12-03-2011, 06:48 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Do people think Subban dived on that play? I thought it was more of a really poor decision made by Williams than a dive...
Just to show that I don't disagree with everything you say, it didn't look like a dive to me

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12-03-2011, 06:55 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
Just to show that I don't disagree with everything you say, it didn't look like a dive to me
and here I agree with much of what he says and thought PK completely sold it...

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12-03-2011, 07:01 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
To your first paragrahp, At this point in time, no it doesn't.

And of course being last in anything positive is bad, no one ever said it wasn't.

The entire time, you, Sydor, and Herby have been harping on this, I keep on saying, and will continue until it changes, is that they are generating the chances, they hit two posts tonight, a few posts a game it seems they are hitting, they had quite a few good chances, that they need to bury. Once the CHANCES start drying up, THEN you have a case of it being a flawed offensive system.
The last 5 seasons, the top team in PP scoring has scored a total of 72, 79, 90, 90, and 94 PP goals - or 1.04 per game on average. The top TOTAL scoring team has scored 258, 313, 289, 258, and 298 total goals in the last 5 seasons for an average of 3.45 goals per game. Non power play goals have accounted for 70% of the scoring.

"Chances" don't count any more than shots never taken - "close" is not and never will be good enough

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12-03-2011, 07:02 PM
  #108
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The BS and cheap shots need to stop now. The game sucked but that doesn't mean everyone has to bring a ****** attitude to the board. If anyone has a problem with that, PM me.

I think the squad is getting a bunch of chances right now but they haven't gone in all season for whatever reason. I have absolutely no idea why and I am going to look at and blame the players who are simply refusing to bury their chances. I dunno what's going on, at this point it seems like the target practice players are employing is how to hit the goaltender in their chest.

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12-03-2011, 07:02 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by DAkings20 View Post
people are gonna blame the refs but the kings still suck, can't win if you can't score
/thread

blame the refs all you want.


Kings can't score for ****.

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12-03-2011, 07:03 PM
  #110
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Only caught the last 15 minutes but it sure looked like the Kings were stuck to the boards while MON clogged up the slot. Pretty typical....

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12-03-2011, 07:05 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
Just to show that I don't disagree with everything you say, it didn't look like a dive to me
Vintage Milbury:

Mike Milbury: "This is fraudulent...This is despicable...This has got to be taken care of by the league. Oh my god, I'm going to die, save me! This is ridiculous. Fine the referee and fine the guy[Suban]. That's embellishment,diving stupidity, embarrassing."

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12-03-2011, 07:11 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
The last 5 seasons, the top team in PP scoring has scored a total of 72, 79, 90, 90, and 94 PP goals - or 1.04 per game on average. The top TOTAL scoring team has scored 258, 313, 289, 258, and 298 total goals in the last 5 seasons for an average of 3.45 goals per game. Non power play goals have accounted for 70% of the scoring.

"Chances" don't count any more than shots never taken - "close" is not and never will be good enough
Chances do count when you are trying to evaluate an offensive system to see if it is working or not, this offensive system works, when the Kings play it, when they don't, well, obviously it doesn't lol.

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12-03-2011, 07:15 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by kingsfan28 View Post
Vintage Milbury:

Mike Milbury: "This is fraudulent...This is despicable...This has got to be taken care of by the league. Oh my god, I'm going to die, save me! This is ridiculous. Fine the referee and fine the guy[Suban]. That's embellishment,diving stupidity, embarrassing."
I think that we need to see a difference between embellishment and diving. IMO, Williams did clearly hit Subban from behind and into the boards when Subban wasn't very far away from the boards. Subban did play up the crumple - he embellished it to make it look more severe than it was, but it was still boarding.

My definition of diving involves more - going down like you were shot if someone touches your legs with their stick, spinning like a top because you were touched in the midsection, or acting like your eye was carved out of your face by a high stick that didn't even touch you

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12-03-2011, 07:21 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by KingKopitar11 View Post
lets all just go to In n' out and eat our sorrows away with a nice thick burger.
Not that hungry, but grab me a shake!

I tend to agree with anyone/everyone that says the Kings are getting plenty of Grade A chances to score, but just are not finishing. Williams had some great chances in the Florida game, and tonight he couldn't seem to get going at all.

Not sure what it will take to get Loktionov going, but he is running out of road at this point.

On a positive note it was nice to see Penner get rewarded for getting to the front of the net. Overall the Kings just didn't create enough net-mouth scrambles to beat Price today.

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12-03-2011, 07:24 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Not that hungry, but grab me a shake!

I tend to agree with anyone/everyone that says the Kings are getting plenty of Grade A chances to score, but just are not finishing. Williams had some great chances in the Florida game, and tonight he couldn't seem to get going at all.

Not sure what it will take to get Loktionov going, but he is running out of road at this point.

On a positive note it was nice to see Penner get rewarded for getting to the front of the net. Overall the Kings just didn't create enough net-mouth scrambles to beat Price today.
Agreed,

Lotkionov will lose his spot when everyone is healthy, he hasn't been downright terrible, but he isn't contributing anything either, he's just there eating minutes, and that's not how you get into the NHL...

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12-03-2011, 07:26 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Chances do count when you are trying to evaluate an offensive system to see if it is working or not, this offensive system works, when the Kings play it, when they don't, well, obviously it doesn't lol.
Since the system hasn't been able to produce offense in the top half of the league for the vast majority of the TM era regardless of personnel, IMO that's the definition of a system that doesn't work.

A team can be unlucky for a game, a series, a month - not for almost 3 1/3 seasons.

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12-03-2011, 07:29 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
Since the system hasn't been able to produce offense in the top half of the league for the vast majority of the TM era regardless of personnel, IMO that's the definition of a system that doesn't work.

A team can be unlucky for a game, a series, a month - not for almost 3 1/3 seasons.
It's not being unlucky, unlucky is having a bounce go off your skate, or hitting your 20th post in a row.

Why is it that the other teams, no matter who it is, gets absolute ZERO credit for having played well? It's either the Kings absolutely suck, or the Kings are absolutely unlucky.

Prime example, today's game. It wasn't unlucky, and the Kings didn't suck, it was a good game where the Kings could have/should have finished more chances than they did.

They GENERATED the chances, they have to finish them.

An offensive system doesn't generate goals, it generates chances, that is the point people either don't get it, or choose to ignore.

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12-03-2011, 07:35 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
On a positive note it was nice to see Penner get rewarded for getting to the front of the net. Overall the Kings just didn't create enough net-mouth scrambles to beat Price today.
The kind of goals that we rarely see with the Kings anymore are goals like the 2nd Montreal goal today with 3 quick and accurate passes with a one-timer that doesn't leave the goalie enough time to react. Richards and Gagne had one on Tuesday, but TM's system seems to discourage that kind of movement.

Why can't Stoll do anything but hit the goalie with his shot on a clear one-on-one like he had in the 3rd period?

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12-03-2011, 07:38 PM
  #119
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Seriously.

Not to single you out because plenty of other people have said it...but

Where are these players needed to succeed?

I see holes at

- 1st line lw
- 1st line rw
- 3rd line lw
- 3rd line c
- 3rd line rw

This team is good between the pipes and defensively, but there is clearly, atleast IMO not enough offense.
Saying that the Kings don't have any 1st line wingers isn't correct. Is anyone producing as much as we would like? Of course not, but Gagne, Penner, Williams and Brown are all top 6 wingers. All have scored more than 30 goals in a season and all average over 20 goals per season. That is top line production.

Would you say that NJ doesn't have any top line LWers? Gagne has as many goals as both Parise and Kovalchuk. Parise and Kovalchuk are both -9 and Gagne is +3. Brown is only 1 goal behind Kovalchuk.

Clifford, Richardson, Stoll and Lewis are all capable of playing on the third line. Moreau, Fraser and Westgarth have been a good 4th line.

I see a roster that should compete for the Pacific division. I really didn't think Murray could screw up this year's team, but being 27th in offense shows that he can screw it up.

I would prefer to see Murray go and see what someone else can do to motivate this team. Even if it is Stevens for the rest of this season. Lombardi hasn't been perfect, but he has been able to get the Kings core signed to long term deals without any NTC/MNC. The next GM will not be handcuffed by any of his contracts.

Penner, Richards and Gagne should have improved the offense. Even with Simmonds and Handzus leaving, the offense shouldn't be as bad as it currently is. Do you trade these guys and start over? I don't think so, the best option is to try another coach.

Until then, it doesn't matter who is in the lineup, the Kings with Murray will play for 2-1 wins.

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12-03-2011, 07:39 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
The kind of goals that we rarely see with the Kings anymore are goals like the 2nd Montreal goal today with 3 quick and accurate passes with a one-timer that doesn't leave the goalie enough time to react. Richards and Gagne had one on Tuesday, but TM's system seems to discourage that kind of movement.

Why can't Stoll do anything but hit the goalie with his shot on a clear one-on-one like he had in the 3rd period?
That was one an odd man rush due to a blowout by Greene, that in no way is indicative of any offensive system, at all.

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12-03-2011, 07:45 PM
  #121
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Not all chances are equal. A chance not finished either wasn't a high quality chance or if it was a high quality chance the player given the chance didn't finish due to a lack of skill, concentration, or the goalie had superior skill and concentration.

IMO, they are getting chances, but not high quality chances due in large part to the perimeter play in this system. I didn't see Price screened on most of the shots today - and when Penner was able to get in front of him, he was able to tip a perimeter shot past Price.

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12-03-2011, 07:54 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
That was one an odd man rush due to a blowout by Greene, that in no way is indicative of any offensive system, at all.
Greene did have a blowout, but Montreal created that high quality chance with speed entering the zone, passing skill, and scored on a great one-timer that Bernier didn't have time to set up on. Greene had the blowout trying to get back quickly, but he couldn't

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12-03-2011, 07:55 PM
  #123
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Not all chances are equal. A chance not finished either wasn't a high quality chance or if it was a high quality chance the player given the chance didn't finish due to a lack of skill, concentration, or the goalie had superior skill and concentration.

IMO, they are getting chances, but not high quality chances due in large part to the perimeter play in this system. I didn't see Price screened on most of the shots today - and when Penner was able to get in front of him, he was able to tip a perimeter shot past Price.
Absolutely, not all chances are equal, but most scoring chances, are well, scoring chances, if you want to differentiate between high quality chances and regular chances, go ahead, I don't have the time to do the legwork that would require.

If a player didn't finish, it could be a lot more than lack of concentration, ability or larger superior skill etc, oversimplifying it does the game no justice to be honest.

Today, from what I remember, you are right, they didn't have a lot of screens in front, but they did generate some good chances that Price made some nice saves on,

Yes, they lost today, but they played well.

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12-03-2011, 07:57 PM
  #124
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Greene did have a blowout, but Montreal created that high quality chance with speed entering the zone, passing skill, and scored on a great one-timer that Bernier didn't have time to set up on. Greene had the blowout trying to get back quickly, but he couldn't
Greene had the blowout trying to pinch, that led to the 3-2, Montreal entered the zone with speed and passes, because it was on odd man rush.

There was nothing systematic about that goal, it was a great, on the rush goal,

I still think Bernier should have had it, but that could be me being super critical there, I think Bernier could have had both goals...

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12-03-2011, 08:14 PM
  #125
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Williams is the new Penner
Penner played great, even if he didn't get that goal.
Bernier kept us in the game
Lokti made some good plays.
Voynov is an NHmuthaeffinL defenseman
Doughty was being Doughty, finally
Bad loss but we'll get over it

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