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Injury Talk 3.0: Gionta out indefinitely (bicep tear)

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12-04-2011, 02:53 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post

What I DO blame management for is not having a backup plan for their defense. As I stated previously, jettisoning Hamrlik and Wiz in the hope that Markov, Emelin and Diaz would immediately soar in their positions, was irresponsibly optimistic.
It was indeed risky by Pierre Gauthier but saying he had no backup plan at all is unfair IMO, he still targeted Campoli, a guy we gave up no assets for, just too bad he got injured that quickly.. you can see the whole picture different ways.. Personally I like to see the positives of every situations.. While we could be higher in the standing if Markov was back earlier, Campoli and Spacek not injured and all, the org. has had plenty of time to evaluate their actual young defensemen, thats crazy to see a so young blueline in action playing big minutes every nights, thats alot of pressure on their shoulders and the experience they are gaining is priceless.. When the injured guys are back, Gauthier will have his mind clearer about the future decisions to take, our D will be much deeper cause we all know guys like Emelin Diaz can play and still can improve.. Personally I wouldnt be surprised to see Martin bench Gill when everybody are back, I wouldnt be surprised to see Weber being traded cause he has been the most inconsistent of our 3 kids and has more NHL experience than both..

Everything isnt negative, the experience the kids gained since the begin of the season should pay alot at the end.. If Emelin and Diaz keeps improving. the pairings Martin will use in the second half should be very interesting and possibly very impressing.. I really like how Emelin and Diaz are playing at the moment..

Markov Emelin

Gorges Subban

Campoli Diaz\Spacek

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12-04-2011, 03:08 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
I strongly believe money was never the deal breaker, simply term. Wisniewski wanted stability and to settle down with his family, knowing he would not have to uproot in three years. With how favorably he talked about the organization and city, he seemed willing to accept less money but wouldn't bunch on term. Frankly, it was a mistake to allow him to walk, especially if my assumption is accurate. He had an insane season with us and we watched yet another powerplay specialist and fairly decent defenseman, walk out the door.

Like others have insinuated, there was too much reliance placed upon Markov's return when we opted to not resign Wisniewski or Hamrlik.

Hamrlik - Wisniewski
Emelin - Subban
Gill - Gorges
Weber

vs.

Subban - Gorges
Emelin - Weber
Gill - Diaz

For argument sake, we will assume Spacek is injured and Campoli was never signed. The first, while not great, is far better than the second. The only good news about this is Markov's delayed return may bury Martin. If so, then I'm all for it.
Why did you add Hamrlik too? Together doesn't equal markov's cap, we can't even fit them both under the cap.

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12-04-2011, 03:50 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
There's no reason to blame Markov for any of this. As far as we know, he did everything right in his recovery and, unfortunately, had setbacks. If this surgery is successful - and there's no reason to think it won't be - he'll be back early in the new year, as soon as he can and for as effectively as he can. I don't care about his salary - it was negotiated fairly and in good faith based on information at the time. Do I know that for sure? No, but there's no logical reason to believe in hidden conspiracies.

I also don't blame the management for signing him. Of course it was a risk. But we dump all over these guys for NOT taking chances; I won't fault them for rolling the dice on a star player.

What I DO blame management for is not having a backup plan for their defense. As I stated previously, jettisoning Hamrlik and Wiz in the hope that Markov, Emelin and Diaz would immediately soar in their positions, was irresponsibly optimistic.
i don't know why some people have such a hard time understanding this part...

edit: for Mr. Hab since the other thread exploded and got locked when i wasn't looking.

Dear Mr. Hab.

it would be greatly appreciated is you would please refrain from using the line "bolting back to russia" in future posts.

why you ask? because he is a CANADIAN CITIZEN.

yours truly.

MD


Last edited by MasterDecoy: 12-04-2011 at 03:56 AM.
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Old
12-04-2011, 04:45 AM
  #54
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3 more weeks...
Markov has got to retire. Enough with this bull-****.
--------------------------- ----------------------------

SnapVirus wrote:
''Mr Hab should change his name for anti-Markov, what a hater.''

I'm a Hab-lover, not a Hab-hater, except...I just can't stand the
3 seasons of waiting for Markov...no matter how good he is/was it doesn't matter since he's damaged goods + has not played in 3 seasons (and he leaves a huge gap in our D-corps...season after season). I have lots of patience but can't stand what Markov is doing to our Habs.

Hater? I'm a huge fan of...
Gorges (huuuuuuge fan), Price (huuuuuge fan), Subban (huuge fan),
Plekanec, Eller, Moen, White (can't wait for his comeback!), L.Leblanc, Cole, Pacioretty (so glad he's healthy), Desharnais, Emelin (warming up to him more and more!), Diaz (warming up to him...I like his recent 24 minutes of ice-time), Gomez! (at least I'm willing to be patient/positive with him...I still have hope), Beaulieu (can't wait!), Tinordi (can't wait! but will remain patient).


Markov = Mr.Damaged Goods.
Markov = Frustrating False Hope (going on 3 seasons and then 4 and then 5 seasons...)


----------------- ---------------
natey2k4 wrote:
''5,75mil/year x 6 doesn't equal 50mil...'',etc.

Just to be clear...50mil+ is just an approximate total of what Markov has made as a Hab (incl. the next 2 seasons of 5,75mil/year). Just pointing out that we haven't gotten much in return from Markov (in last 3 seasons).


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 12-04-2011 at 09:25 AM.
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Old
12-04-2011, 05:12 AM
  #55
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Apparently his knee was fine to play, but they wanted to take precaution and get this minor surgery out of the way.
the last time he had a "minor" setback was in training camp where he was going to be shelved for "a couple of weeks" and "may or may not" miss the start of the season. This whole Markov thing is a total joke. Sooner or later he'll get his leg amputated and some people will still defend the signing over Wiz. The most worrisome part of the Markov ordeal isn't that he won't come back. Its that when he does come back he's not going to be the same player. I'm sorry, but anybody expecting the same player he was before is out to lunch. The guy has basically missed 2 years of hockey now and is obviously damaged goods. Even if he does come back and manages to stay in the lineup he will be nothing more than a pp specialist. The days of him being a jack of all trades 20+ minute dman are long over.

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12-04-2011, 07:22 AM
  #56
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The replacements for Wiz and Hamrlik were Gorges, Markov and Campoli. They also added Diaz and Emelin for depth, obviously they did not expect Diaz and Emelin would be top 6 regulars for most games to this point even if Markov had to miss more time. At one point our 4 most experienced d-men were out, no amount of planning can account for that.
But when you build your defense on shaky, unproven foundation, you're asking for trouble. And they got trouble. I like Diaz and I'm finally starting to love Emelin, but expecting our rookies to become instant regulars was unfair, and their rookie mistakes cost us games. Markov is like the hot cheerleader who keeps smiling at you but never lets you kiss her. Some of us feel jerked around while waiting, which is the only action we've gotten from him until he puts out. Point it, after Gill and Spacek, every other defenseman we had was either barely out of diapers or barely out of a cast. That is not the recipe for a contender; that sounds more like a team in rebuilding mode, or a team flying on blind hope. I like Campoli, but he was a last-second "uh-oh!" pickup once they realized Markov was out for awhile.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
Everything isnt negative, the experience the kids gained since the begin of the season should pay alot at the end.. If Emelin and Diaz keeps improving. the pairings Martin will use in the second half should be very interesting and possibly very impressing.. I really like how Emelin and Diaz are playing at the moment..
I agree very strongly with you on this. Using the first half of the season as a development camp wasn't exactly 'Plan A', but our kiddie-corps is coming along nicely. See? I can also be an optimist.

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12-04-2011, 07:56 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
the last time he had a "minor" setback was in training camp where he was going to be shelved for "a couple of weeks" and "may or may not" miss the start of the season. This whole Markov thing is a total joke. Sooner or later he'll get his leg amputated and some people will still defend the signing over Wiz. The most worrisome part of the Markov ordeal isn't that he won't come back. Its that when he does come back he's not going to be the same player. I'm sorry, but anybody expecting the same player he was before is out to lunch. The guy has basically missed 2 years of hockey now and is obviously damaged goods. Even if he does come back and manages to stay in the lineup he will be nothing more than a pp specialist. The days of him being a jack of all trades 20+ minute dman are long over.
The whole point of getting it scoped is so there are no further setbacks and stop the swelling. Loose bodies inside the knee caused swelling and probably was the source of the August setback.

the silver lining of this cloud is that the longer he is out, the stronger his ACL gets limiting the possibility of re-injury.

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12-04-2011, 08:00 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
But when you build your defense on shaky, unproven foundation, you're asking for trouble. And they got trouble. I like Diaz and I'm finally starting to love Emelin, but expecting our rookies to become instant regulars was unfair, and their rookie mistakes cost us games. Markov is like the hot cheerleader who keeps smiling at you but never lets you kiss her. Some of us feel jerked around while waiting, which is the only action we've gotten from him until he puts out. Point it, after Gill and Spacek, every other defenseman we had was either barely out of diapers or barely out of a cast. That is not the recipe for a contender; that sounds more like a team in rebuilding mode, or a team flying on blind hope. I like Campoli, but he was a last-second "uh-oh!" pickup once they realized Markov was out for awhile.




I agree very strongly with you on this. Using the first half of the season as a development camp wasn't exactly 'Plan A', but our kiddie-corps is coming along nicely. See? I can also be an optimist.

I made a point but you seemed to completely miss it...they DIDN'T expect Diaz and Emelin to become instant regulars, they were penciled in as #7-8-9 with Weber. St Denis was #11 on the depth chart or lower...then markov had the setback, capoli got hurt, Nash did also, Spacek got hurt twice and then Gill got an infection.

You think that if Boston loses Chara Seidenberg Ference and Boychuk go out that they won't miss a beat?

last yaer Pittsburgh had a ton of depth at center, then at one point Letestu and talbot were their top 2 centers...you can't really plan for disaster...

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12-04-2011, 08:17 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
The whole point of getting it scoped is so there are no further setbacks and stop the swelling. Loose bodies inside the knee caused swelling and probably was the source of the August setback.

the silver lining of this cloud is that the longer he is out, the stronger his ACL gets limiting the possibility of re-injury.
So getting his knee scoped means there will be no more problems down the road? That's how you make it sound.

How many of these "cleanup" procedures will he need? I was told all summer that he could be out for up to a year so I fully expect him back on December 8 and not after his 34th birthday.

As for Gauthier - he had an opportunity to sign a legit top 4 d-man and didn't get it done. This mess is on him. I now fear the worst that Markov will be in and out of the lineup for three - well two and a half years now - while the team struggles and continues to waste assets to fill the void. And for this year Gorges and Subban are gaining leverage for their next contracts.

Two different doctors have a had a crack at fixing this knee and to date neither one has succeeded. You could almost the first one faired better. LOL And now there is third from LA entering the picture. Meanhwile Gorges is skating around like there's no tomorrow after having the same surgery by the same doctor. TBH........I don't trust Markov's threshold of pain.

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Old
12-04-2011, 08:29 AM
  #60
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So getting his knee scoped means there will be no more problems down the road? That's how you make it sound.

How many of these "cleanup" procedures will he need? I was told all summer that he could be out for up to a year so I fully expect him back on December 8 and not after his 34th birthday.

As for Gauthier - he had an opportunity to sign a legit top 4 d-man and didn't get it done. This mess is on him. I now fear the worst that Markov will be in and out of the lineup for three - well two and a half years now - while the team struggles and continues to waste assets to fill the void. And for this year Gorges and Subban are gaining leverage for their next contracts.

Two different doctors have a had a crack at fixing this knee and to date neither one has succeeded. You could almost the first one faired better. LOL And now there is third from LA entering the picture. Meanhwile Gorges is skating around like there's no tomorrow after having the same surgery by the same doctor. TBH........I don't trust Markov's threshold of pain.
He signed 2 top 4 d-men this past summer, Markov and Campoli.

You make no sense, there have been no issues with his ACL, the problem has stemmed from swelling in the knee, something rubbing in there(loose cartilage) which has nothing to do with the ACL.

What does pain threshold have to do with anything? I'm sure markov can control the swelling in his knee just by using his mind...

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12-04-2011, 08:46 AM
  #61
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He signed 2 top 4 d-men this past summer, Markov and Campoli.

You make no sense, there have been no issues with his ACL, the problem has stemmed from swelling in the knee, something rubbing in there(loose cartilage) which has nothing to do with the ACL.

What does pain threshold have to do with anything? I'm sure markov can control the swelling in his knee just by using his mind...
You never answered the question of "how many of these cleanup procedures will he need?" His ACL hasn't even been game tested. Nobody knows how long it's going to hold up or how mobile he'll be.

So you're saying athletes don't have different pain thresholds? Gorges vs. Markov - no contest.

Campoli a top four d-man? Maybe for the Habs.

I want to hear all the excuses for why it will now take longer than the projected year.

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12-04-2011, 09:14 AM
  #62
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My father's a doctor and he we spoke about the Markov 'third' surgery and he told me it is something really MINOR and which is done a lot after big surgery like he got.

Should be back with the team after christmas. (said it could take 2-3-4 weeks depending of the person).

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12-04-2011, 09:16 AM
  #63
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Why did you add Hamrlik too? Together doesn't equal markov's cap, we can't even fit them both under the cap.
Actually, we could if many of the current players on the roster were thrown to the AHL. It would be difficult but feasible. An alternative would have been to let Gill walk or move Spacek. Anything would have suffice to have some variety of a backup plan. Chris Campoli certainly is not a good one even if he hadn't been injured.

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12-04-2011, 10:26 AM
  #64
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My father's a doctor and he we spoke about the Markov 'third' surgery and he told me it is something really MINOR and which is done a lot after big surgery like he got.

Should be back with the team after christmas. (said it could take 2-3-4 weeks depending of the person).
Your father is Mark Recchi? That's bad-ass, dude.

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12-04-2011, 10:33 AM
  #65
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Actually, we could if many of the current players on the roster were thrown to the AHL. It would be difficult but feasible. An alternative would have been to let Gill walk or move Spacek. Anything would have suffice to have some variety of a backup plan. Chris Campoli certainly is not a good one even if he hadn't been injured.
Hamrlik was healthy scratch and either way it's feasible but there's much better you can do if you bury guys like Gomez. Dropping Gomez for 2 years of Hamrlik is a lateral move. Not worth paying gomez in minors to fit an aging vet.

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12-04-2011, 10:56 AM
  #66
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You never answered the question of "how many of these cleanup procedures will he need?" His ACL hasn't even been game tested. Nobody knows how long it's going to hold up or how mobile he'll be.

So you're saying athletes don't have different pain thresholds? Gorges vs. Markov - no contest.

Campoli a top four d-man? Maybe for the Habs.

I want to hear all the excuses for why it will now take longer than the projected year.
Campoli has been a top 4 guy his whole career, think you need more research. He was top 4 on Chicago, who won the cup the year before.

what does pain threshold have to do with anything?

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12-04-2011, 10:56 AM
  #67
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My father's a doctor and he we spoke about the Markov 'third' surgery and he told me it is something really MINOR and which is done a lot after big surgery like he got.

Should be back with the team after christmas. (said it could take 2-3-4 weeks depending of the person).
Ask your dad why they never thought of this 6 months ago.

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12-04-2011, 02:34 PM
  #68
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Any updates on spacemen and campoli?
Lets focus on they guys that are actually close to returning because the habs need them.

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12-04-2011, 02:37 PM
  #69
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Any updates on spacemen and campoli?
Lets focus on they guys that are actually close to returning because the habs need them.
The Habs need more offense than defense.

I just hope they gonna package some extra d-men for at least one forward.

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12-04-2011, 02:40 PM
  #70
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Ask your dad why they never thought of this 6 months ago.
doctors cannot just make predictions like that, especially about something random like sinew fragments in the knee

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12-04-2011, 02:42 PM
  #71
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doctors cannot just make predictions like that, especially about something random like sinew fragments in the knee
Dude why don't you post here more often?

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12-04-2011, 02:44 PM
  #72
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Dude why don't you post here more often?
I get overwhelmed by the stuff I would like to correct too often

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12-04-2011, 02:46 PM
  #73
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Ask your dad why they never thought of this 6 months ago.
They never thought that loose cartilage would cause swelling in the knee six months down the line? They probably forgot to check their crystal ball. They should've thought about the fact that Campoli was going to get hurt in his first game with the Habs before signing that contract too.

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12-04-2011, 02:59 PM
  #74
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So far the markov signing is not paying dividends.

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12-04-2011, 03:15 PM
  #75
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Imagine that scenario:

Markov forced into retirement and Gorges giving us the middle finger and walks away in free agency.

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