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Old
12-04-2011, 01:04 PM
  #526
trentmccleary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
I'd say it's time to accept the fact that Silfverberg is a legitimate top 6 prospect with upside that may go beyond that.

It's not usual a 21 year old finds himself in top 5 in scoring in the SEL. Not only that, this was basically expected of him, and Mikael Renberg considers him the best player in the league. '

I know you won't admit it until it's obvious in front of your eyes, but chances are Silfverberg will be a better player than Foligno.
Silfverberg has been tabbed by the organization and independent bureaus as a virtual lock for a middle-6 position. That he's performing so well in such a prestigious league overseas makes you lean toward 2nd line as opposed to 3rd line (as I am). But we're only going to find out when he starts playing NHL games 'if' or 'how long it'll take' before we know whether we have a 2nd liner.

Allegedly 30 points is Jack All and everything Tom, Dick and Harry we draft is going to surpass that mark... but the fact of the matter is that in the past decade; only two fo Ottawa's draft picks have (Eaves & Foligno)... and Eaves doesn't look all that likely to ever to do it again.

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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Silfverberg would be in the top six this year had he remained here, he was one of the top 2 or 3 forwards through training camp.
Uhhhhhh ... Development camp?

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12-04-2011, 01:08 PM
  #527
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post

Allegedly 30 points is Jack All and everything Tom, Dick and Harry we draft is going to surpass that mark... but the fact of the matter is that in the past decade; only two fo Ottawa's draft picks have (Eaves & Foligno)... and Eaves doesn't look all that likely to ever to do it again.
Karlsson.

The drafting black hole through the mid 2000s does skew the results a little. I agree with your point though. But some teams that drafted competently every year probably have better results. I expect we will.

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12-04-2011, 01:37 PM
  #528
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The organization has gone through 3 different management changes in the last decade with completely different scouts so I don't think you can compare last drafts only from the same GM and see who made the NHL yet.

Karlsson is tearing up the league as a 21 year old, drafted 16th overall
Smith is bonefied 3rd line center, passed over twice before getting picked in the 3rd round.
Cowen is emerging into the team's most dependable dman and is eating up big minutes in the NHL while other players that were drafted around him like MPS and Kadri are in the AHL
Rundblad is coming into his own as well.
Borocop is pretty much a lock to play in the NHL.
Silverberg could have made it this year if he wanted.
Zibby will definitely make it next year.
Lehner, not much else you could say about a 19 year old that has already won a cup and the MVP.

Seeing this scouting team's past record it just seems that most of their picks will make the NHL.

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12-04-2011, 01:49 PM
  #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
Karlsson.

The drafting black hole through the mid 2000s does skew the results a little. I agree with your point though. But some teams that drafted competently every year probably have better results. I expect we will.
From the 20 drafts from 1992-2011, we've only drafted 17 x 30+ point forwards.

Yashin, Daigle, Demitra, Bonk, Alfie, Dackell, Hossa, Arvedson, Fisher, Neil, Havlat, Kelly, Vermette, Spezza, Laich, Eaves, Foligno

That's less than 1 x 30+ point forward per draft for a team that's drafted very well.... with perhaps 3 of the youngsters ('09-11) developing to maintain a 1 x per draft when all is said and done.

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12-04-2011, 01:56 PM
  #530
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
From the 20 drafts from 1992-2011, we've only drafted 17 x 30+ point forwards.

Yashin, Daigle, Demitra, Bonk, Alfie, Dackell, Hossa, Arvedson, Fisher, Neil, Havlat, Kelly, Vermette, Spezza, Laich, Eaves, Foligno

That's less than 1 x 30+ point forward per draft for a team that's drafted very well.... with perhaps 3 of the youngsters ('09-11) developing to maintain a 1 x per draft when all is said and done.
How much did Muckler's tenure affect our rate?

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12-04-2011, 02:04 PM
  #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
How much did Muckler's tenure affect our rate?
This and what does the 1992 draft have to do with anything? How is it a predictor of what Jake Silver or anyone else will become?

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12-04-2011, 02:15 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
How much did Muckler's tenure affect our rate?
That depends which or both of '02 and/or '07 you want to credit/blame him for.

It was 15 players x 30+ in the 10 drafts up until '01.
Then only Eaves ('03) and Foligno ('06).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
This and what does the 1992 draft have to do with anything? How is it a predictor of what Jake Silver or anyone else will become?
Not sure where you're going with this, but Ottawa is/was a great example of a great drafting team. I know Murray is credited with drafting this phenomenal stable of youngsters, but in 4/5 years of drafting... we haven't realized a lot of this potential into actual NHL'ers yet. I would agree with the sentiment that it's too early to judge most of these youngsters either way, but while conceding that point -> you'd have to realize that it's too early to judge Murray a drafting guru who made it possible for us to trade away all of our NHL talent.

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12-04-2011, 02:28 PM
  #533
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I don't why you are still comparing drafts that were taken by people in the organization that are no longer here. This is a very different organization than what it was 5 years ago and you can't really compare.

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12-04-2011, 02:31 PM
  #534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
That depends which or both of '02 and/or '07 you want to credit/blame him for.

It was 15 players x 30+ in the 10 drafts up until '01.
Then only Eaves ('03) and Foligno ('06).



Not sure where you're going with this, but Ottawa is/was a great example of a great drafting team. I know Murray is credited with drafting this phenomenal stable of youngsters, but in 4/5 years of drafting... we haven't realized a lot of this potential into actual NHL'ers yet. I would agree with the sentiment that it's too early to judge most of these youngsters either way, but while conceding that point -> you'd have to realize that it's too early to judge Murray a drafting guru who made it possible for us to trade away all of our NHL talent.
Agreed, it's way too early to judge. From 2008 (Murray's first real draft) to 2011, I think it's very possible to get 6 30 point forwards, the 1.5 per draft pace from up until 2001.

How was this even started anyway? Silfverberg is pretty much a lock to be a 30 point scorer unless he completely falls off the map.

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12-04-2011, 02:33 PM
  #535
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
That depends which or both of '02 and/or '07 you want to credit/blame him for.

It was 15 players x 30+ in the 10 drafts up until '01.
Then only Eaves ('03) and Foligno ('06).
.
Muckler's draft tenure would be marked by the departure of Jarmo Kekalainen and the entrance of Anders Hedberg until Pierre Dorion became head of scouting.

I know 2007 was before Dorion and Tim Murray. Not sure about 2002...Hedberg I assume, came in before the 02 draft.

I think the encouraging thing is since 2008 we've been heavy on defense, and it looks like we have two that will be surpassing 30 point regularly. Hell, Cowen may not be far off considering the offensive smarts he's shown.

I think it's safe to say we can be a bit more optimistic about our drafting now....not to say we can believe every player will turn into something...but more than you might think based on our history.

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12-04-2011, 02:47 PM
  #536
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
Muckler's draft tenure would be marked by the departure of Jarmo Kekalainen and the entrance of Anders Hedberg until Pierre Dorion became head of scouting.

I know 2007 was before Dorion and Tim Murray. Not sure about 2002...Hedberg I assume, came in before the 02 draft.

I think the encouraging thing is since 2008 we've been heavy on defense, and it looks like we have two that will be surpassing 30 point regularly. Hell, Cowen may not be far off considering the offensive smarts he's shown.

I think it's safe to say we can be a bit more optimistic about our drafting now....not to say we can believe every player will turn into something...but more than you might think based on our history.
/ This.

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12-04-2011, 02:56 PM
  #537
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Why are we comparing 30+ points players?

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12-04-2011, 05:32 PM
  #538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afro Thunder View Post
I don't why you are still comparing drafts that were taken by people in the organization that are no longer here. This is a very different organization than what it was 5 years ago and you can't really compare.
It doesn't matter that it was Ottawa or not. It was an example of a successful drafting team that didn't realize potential anywhere near the rate at which some people seem to think we will now. Or basically, we'll pretty much become by far the single greatest drafting organization in the history of professional sports.

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Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
How was this even started anyway? Silfverberg is pretty much a lock to be a 30 point scorer unless he completely falls off the map.
He's a much more certain prospect than any of our others. But that's not a guarantee, as many near locks before him failed anyways. It also doesn't project a timeline for when this potential might come to fruition.

Until they earn ice time, prove themselves over significant lengths of time and actually produce in the NHL:
- they aren't making anybody on the NHL roster expendable.
- they aren't currently or in the near term likely to be any sort of improvement over the players we have on the roster.
- the bust factor of all prospects, even the ones you like, is so high as to make most of these projected lineups look absurd within a short period of time.

It will probably be 2 or 3 seasons before any of those players make an impact in the top half of the roster, if they do at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
I think it's safe to say we can be a bit more optimistic about our drafting now....not to say we can believe every player will turn into something...but more than you might think based on our history.
You're focusing too much on '02-07. Even taken as a whole, our team has been very successful at the draft. Every team has a lull, that was ours. However, the entirety of Ottawa's draft record should be grounding expectations on what we're going to develop out of these past few drafts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mat_sens View Post
Why are we comparing 30+ points players?
Because we've developed very few of them or even fewer 50 pt players if you like (what? 10 or 11)... but we're almost assured of getting 5 or 6 x 50+ point players out of our last 3 drafts alone?

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12-04-2011, 05:41 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post


You're focusing too much on '02-07. Even taken as a whole, our team has been very successful at the draft. Every team has a lull, that was ours. However, the entirety of Ottawa's draft record should be grounding expectations on what we're going to develop out of these past few drafts.
:
We've had three "eras" of drafting in Ottawa and it goes competent, incompetent, competent. Until it looks incompetent again I'll associate my expectations a little heavier with the other competent era. That's all I'm saying.

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12-04-2011, 07:24 PM
  #540
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Yeah I know they are all bot going to make it as top 6 players but we just 2 or 3 to make it.

And it wouldnt surprise me if most of them make it anyways.
I was going to say something like this... Hockey's Future is not an exact science but there's a reason why the Sens prospect pool is actually ranked #2 in all the NHL. And it's not non-deserved like the Leafs and Rangers prospects who were graded 8.0 as soon as they had a bit of upside. Most of our prospects grades are very conservative, those who followed HF for a while would agree.

We have many projects, many guys with unknown potential, but we really don't need all of them to make it. Just a few to become key players and a few others to be depht contributors


Centers

Spezza
Zibanejad
Smith

Wingers

Michalek
Silfverberg
Foligno
Greening

D-men

Cowen
Karlsson
Rundblad

Goalies

Lehner

Those guys are the safest bets we have in the organisation right now, but we have a dozen of other prospects who could surpass a few of them (Noesen, Puempel, Filatov, Butler, Da Costa, Regin, Petersson, Stone, Prince, Pageau, Grant, Hoffman, O'Brien, Sorensen...), and I'm only talking about forward prospects there

Just with the 7 forwards in that list, I'm sure you can build a decent top-9*. Then, you only have the UFA and trade market to fill the holes if there's any.

But when you have so many quality prospects, chances that you find at least 1 gem are great. We should be able to fill those holes easily. With our current scouting staff and proven achievements (check 2008 & 2009 (include Rundblad for fun) drafts for example, http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00007328.html), I'd be surprised if ALL those guys busts.

Those who say "need a dose of reality", or whatever are the ones in denial, it's very easy to see with the way the team is shaping up. The question that remains for me is what level of their potential will those guys reach and will they win?

* Just to have a better idea :

????????-Spezza-Michalek
Foligno-Zibanejad-Silfverberg
Greening-Smith-????????

My question is how many holes do we really need to fill? And that's without our picks in the upcoming 2012 draft. IMO, we will have the luxury to choose the best among a quality group.


Last edited by Xspyrit: 12-04-2011 at 07:31 PM.
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Old
12-05-2011, 07:35 AM
  #541
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hard to say Butler is not as impressive as you think to be honest. He played great last year but has only show it in flashes this year. It is a flip of a coin at this poitn between Filatov and Butler
yes.. but Filatov played very good after three games and later after concussion symptoms he had scoring chances and only bad luck was the reason that not.. I cannot imagine his psyche with.... not important achievment...or score or HS Butler played with Spezza and did not show anything in the last game. I am not Butler hater I like him

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12-05-2011, 12:42 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
yes.. but Filatov played very good after three games and later after concussion symptoms he had scoring chances and only bad luck was the reason that not.. I cannot imagine his psyche with.... not important achievment...or score or HS Butler played with Spezza and did not show anything in the last game. I am not Butler hater I like him
Filatov played very good? 2 shots in 3 games playing with Spezza?

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12-05-2011, 12:46 PM
  #543
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Filatov played very good? 2 shots in 3 games playing with Spezza?
How many Spezza passed him? And he was often in free zone good for passing. Or when Greening with Filatov was n the front of the net and Spezza skated with puck utnill Dallas players did not take it or when they were two for one Spezza did not passed but lost the puck... or his turnovers in the game against Dallas.

Plus he is espacially passer and I do not understand why he plays with Spezza. Michalek was the reason why Spezza line was great now he plays with Alfie and Spezza does not have wingers whom he could believe. He does not believe so much Greening and Filatov/Butler as Michalek or Alfie and wants all do alone.

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