HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

HOH Top 60 Defensemen of All-Time

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-03-2011, 11:06 PM
  #51
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,128
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
It is not relavent how close that Gadsby was to Harvey & Kelly since everyone in this round is far below those guys. Our difference was your downplaying Gadsby's defensive skills because he played most of his career on bad teams. Not his fault. & should not be a factor. Nough said
This is true but there are at least 4 guys closer to those 2 guys than Gadsby and probably a couple more as well team situation aside.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2011, 11:12 PM
  #52
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 22,321
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
What are the odds Gonchar lands on this list?
To be fair...
Gonchar SHOULD have been in my Top-80, but I basically omitted him.

But the Top-60?... Not sure.

To give you an idea... Guy #60 in my list was Rob Blake, and I do think Gonchar compares really badly to Blake.

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2011, 11:13 PM
  #53
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 22,321
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
This is true but there are at least 4 guys closer to those 2 guys than Gadsby and probably a couple more as well team situation aside.
...Obviously. I mean... I just don't think it was the point.

Gadbsy is a new-entry in the round.
The rule is : A new-entry usually has to wait a round.

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2011, 11:37 PM
  #54
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,128
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
...Obviously. I mean... I just don't think it was the point.

Gadbsy is a new-entry in the round.
The rule is : A new-entry usually has to wait a round.
You would think so but unless I got it wrong someone is pushing for him being possibly number 1 in this round.


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 12-03-2011 at 11:44 PM. Reason: went back and looked a guy was leaning for Gadsby for #1
Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2011, 12:44 AM
  #55
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,077
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
You would think so but unless I got it wrong someone is pushing for him being possibly number 1 in this round.
There will probably be rounds in the future where I will give a new addition my top vote.

There's a reason this is a two-step process.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2011, 01:18 AM
  #56
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,128
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
There will probably be rounds in the future where I will give a new addition my top vote.

There's a reason this is a two-step process.
This might happen with me as I'm treating each round on it's own merits and not referring back to my original list.

Of course I have my own ideas on things and look critically at each round but I'm open minded and read all the posts and look forward to the different perspectives given, even the ones I do not agree with, hopefully all are doing the same.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2011, 08:41 AM
  #57
pappyline
Registered User
 
pappyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mass/formerly Ont
Country: United States
Posts: 4,164
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
...Obviously. I mean... I just don't think it was the point.

Gadbsy is a new-entry in the round.
The rule is : A new-entry usually has to wait a round.
Maybe your rule but NOT A RULE. You must have had a real problem in vote #1. there was nobody you could vote for.

Every player up every round should be considered. Otherwise, why even add new guys.

BTW, I believe you were part of the HOH top 100 project where Gadsby was quite easily a top 20 guy ahead of several others up for vote here. What has changed since then? Nothing, other than fewer and different voters in this project

pappyline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2011, 10:34 AM
  #58
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 22,321
vCash: 500
Ehh...
Geez.

Sortof a rule. It's perfectly logical that a new entry has to wait at least one round (I had Seibert, Clegorne Top-5 last round).

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-05-2011, 02:16 PM
  #59
JSBach
Registered User
 
JSBach's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,557
vCash: 500
I think Nick is suffering from European syndrome in this one. Shame.

JSBach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-05-2011, 09:49 PM
  #60
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,128
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fall of Troy View Post
I think Nick is suffering from European syndrome in this one. Shame.
Nick who?

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-05-2011, 11:04 PM
  #61
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,000
vCash: 500
He means Lidstrom.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2011, 02:24 AM
  #62
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,128
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
He means Lidstrom.
I kinda figured that but he could have been more explicit.

Also it's unlikely that his being Swedish affected him, a Canadian player playing the same subtle way might have gone unnoticed early in their careers as well.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2011, 10:30 AM
  #63
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,511
vCash: 500
Canadian Players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I kinda figured that but he could have been more explicit.

Also it's unlikely that his being Swedish affected him, a Canadian player playing the same subtle way might have gone unnoticed early in their careers as well.
Bill Quackenbush, Red Kelly, J.C. Tremblay were all Canadiens players whose style was identical to Nick Lidstrom and they were recognized and honoured accordingly based on their performance very early in their careers.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2011, 10:54 AM
  #64
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 34,443
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Bill Quackenbush, Red Kelly, J.C. Tremblay were all Canadiens players whose style was identical to Nick Lidstrom and they were recognized and honoured accordingly based on their performance very early in their careers.
Calder finish
Lidstrom 2nd (Bure)
Kelly 3rd (McFadden, Babando)
Tremblay T-12th (Keon, Nevin, Glover, Odrowski, Johnson, Johns, Fleming, Gamble, G. Tremblay, Young, Smith, T-Hannigan)
Quackenbush - No votes

Lidstrom was recognized and honored accordingly based on his performance in his early career. Contrary to what some believe, he did not spring from the womb as a fully-formed Norris contender.

tarheelhockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 08:56 PM
  #65
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,077
vCash: 500
Is there a better website than azhockey.com to find out a historical player's jersey number for the original post?

I gave Pronger #44, which is what he wore in Hartford, St. Louis, and Edmonton, even though he's worn different numbers in Anaheim and Philly.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2011, 01:04 PM
  #66
Hobnobs
Pinko
 
Hobnobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 3,693
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Calder finish
Lidstrom 2nd (Bure)
Kelly 3rd (McFadden, Babando)
Tremblay T-12th (Keon, Nevin, Glover, Odrowski, Johnson, Johns, Fleming, Gamble, G. Tremblay, Young, Smith, T-Hannigan)
Quackenbush - No votes

Lidstrom was recognized and honored accordingly based on his performance in his early career. Contrary to what some believe, he did not spring from the womb as a fully-formed Norris contender.
It wasnt exactly because of defense that place Lidström on the ballots during his rookie year. Just saying.

Besides this rankings seems very canadian biased. Where is Salming for example? No way he should be ranked behind Pronger.

Hobnobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2011, 01:13 PM
  #67
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,077
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
It wasnt exactly because of defense that place Lidström on the ballots during his rookie year. Just saying.

Besides this rankings seems very canadian biased. Where is Salming for example? No way he should be ranked behind Pronger.
Why do you say that? Pronger at his best was definitely better than Salming at his best. And while Salming shouldn't be criticized for not doing anything in the playoffs with a sad sack Leafs team, it's no reason not to credit Pronger with multiple dominant postseason performances.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2011, 01:18 PM
  #68
Hobnobs
Pinko
 
Hobnobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 3,693
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Why do you say that? Pronger at his best was definitely better than Salming at his best. And while Salming shouldn't be criticized for not doing anything in the playoffs with a sad sack Leafs team, it's no reason not to credit Pronger with multiple dominant postseason performances.
He was dominant in one playoffs and great in three and usually were great until the finals. Timonen was better than him against the hawks for example and Pronger wasnt the game breaker for the Ducks (the fact that he got to play after the hit on McAmmond is beyond me).

Hobnobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2011, 02:03 PM
  #69
JaysCyYoung
Registered User
 
JaysCyYoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: York Region
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,779
vCash: 500
Wasn't a game-breaker? That suspension was the only thing preventing him from winning the Conn Smythe in 2007. He was certainly more effective than Niedermayer.

JaysCyYoung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2011, 02:19 PM
  #70
Hobnobs
Pinko
 
Hobnobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 3,693
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Wasn't a game-breaker? That suspension was the only thing preventing him from winning the Conn Smythe in 2007. He was certainly more effective than Niedermayer.
Ok if we give him that playoff too. Salming has an international resume thats even better. Hes on the all-time iihf team ffs.

Hobnobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2011, 02:35 PM
  #71
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,077
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Ok if we give him that playoff too. Salming has an international resume thats even better. Hes on the all-time iihf team ffs.
The team where a large number of voters didn't vote for Gretzky as the center?

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2011, 02:47 PM
  #72
Hobnobs
Pinko
 
Hobnobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 3,693
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The team where a large number of voters didn't vote for Gretzky as the center?
What are you talking about? Gretzky scored the most votes of any player.

Hobnobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2011, 02:53 PM
  #73
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,077
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
What are you talking about? Gretzky scored the most votes of any player.
All this from wikipedia, but it's sourced:

Quote:
The IIHF Centennial All-Star Team is an all-star team of hockey players from international ice hockey tournaments. The selection was organized by the International Ice Hockey Federation and named in 2008. The panel comprised 56 ice hockey experts from 16 countries representing a balance between North American and European countries, and included people who have worked in the game for an extended period and whose opinions are widely respected. One of the 56 votes represented the collective opinion of the staff of The Hockey News. Five of the six players (all except Sergei Makarov) are enshrined in the Hockey Hall of Fame in Canada, and were enshrined at the time of the list. Four of the players (Gretzky and Salming being the exceptions) played for CSKA Moscow. None of the voter's selections as a whole were the same as the final team.
Quote:
* Goaltender: Vladislav Tretiak (Soviet Union) - 30 Votes.
* First defenceman: Vyacheslav Fetisov (Soviet Union) - 54 votes.
* Second defenceman: Börje Salming (Sweden) - 17 Votes.
* First winger: Valeri Kharlamov (Soviet Union) - 21 Votes.
* Second winger: Sergei Makarov (Soviet Union) - 18 Votes.
* Centre: Wayne Gretzky (Canada) - 38 Votes.
Looks like 38/56 voters voted for Gretzky, while 18 did not vote for Gretzky. Only Fetisov approached being a consensus candidate with 54/56 voters selecting him.

I really don't see how the fact that Salming got 17 out of 56 votes on a particular list where 18 voters omit Gretzky means he should be thought of more highly than Pronger on a list based on their entire careers.

The only possible explanation for omitting Gretzky is that those voters based the list strictly off IIHF tournaments, which do not include the Canada Cups. But how many IIHF tournaments did Pronger play in? He was generally too busy playing in the NHL playoffs to play in the World Championships.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2011, 03:01 PM
  #74
Hobnobs
Pinko
 
Hobnobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 3,693
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
All this from wikipedia, but it's sourced:





Looks like 38/56 voters voted for Gretzky, while 18 did not vote for Gretzky. Only Fetisov approached being a consensus candidate with 54/56 voters selecting him.

I really don't see how the fact that Salming got 17 out of 56 votes on a particular list where 18 voters omit Gretzky means he should be thought of more highly than Pronger on a list based on their entire careers.

The only possible explanation for omitting Gretzky is that those voters based the list strictly off IIHF tournaments, which do not include the Canada Cups. But how many IIHF tournaments did Pronger play in? He was generally too busy playing in the NHL playoffs to play in the World Championships.
I said that Salming has a more accomplished international career not that this list should be basis for all of it. They were also voted by position. Gretzky recieved 38 votes for the centre position which was 35 more than anyone else.

Hobnobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2011, 03:03 PM
  #75
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,077
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
I said that Salming has a more accomplished international career not that this list should be basis for all of it. They were also voted by position. Gretzky recieved 38 votes for the centre position which was 35 more than anyone else.
This conversation started when you said "no way should Salming be ranked below Pronger."

As for the bolded, do you have a list of the full voting results for the IIHF team? I'd love to see them.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:52 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.